The Tim Burton/Kevin Smith Feud

So what? You don't need to read 1 opage of a comic book to make a good superhero movie.



I don't recall him saying he disliked musicals.

Maybe he didn't like crappy musicals. Like Disney's or such. So he decided to make a good one and break the rules.

I didn't say that was a bad thing of Burton.

I'm just saying that he says one thing that contradicts the other. and in the end he's made succesful movies out of his hypocrisy. In his case, hypocrisy isn't a bad thing.

on a side note: sweeney todd, as burton stated, is one of the only musicals he really likes. so you are right.
 
I didn't say that was a bad thing of Burton.

I'm just saying that he says one thing that contradicts the other. and in the end he's made succesful movies out of his hypocrisy. In his case, hypocrisy isn't a bad thing.

In fact the "I would never read a comic book" was statedby Burton (or Burtonj's lawyer) in 2001 or so just to reply to Smith's accusationj of plagiarism.

It might be true only for his personal everyday life. But he could have consulted Batman comics as preparation for B89.

on a side note: sweeney todd, as burton stated, is one of the only musicals he really likes. so you are right.

:up:

I suspect Nightmare Before Christmas and Corpse Bride are on that list too.
 
It might be true only for his personal everyday life. But he could have consulted Batman comics as preparation for B89.

which is most likely

:up:

I suspect Nightmare Before Christmas and Corpse Bride are on that list too.

That's because Burton created those, of course they would be his favorite. Sweeney Todd was created by Stephen Sondheim.
 
he really wasnt, he wasnt a massive fan, but he was way more a fan than Burton was!
Burton said he would never read a comic!- Nolan read quite alot -and even said himself that the key was looking at the comic history

its really easy info to find- but i or anyone else wont ever change your opionen cause your so die hard set against not liking Nolan : P

yeah, a guy who called the Penguin "unrealistic". Can only be that way cause he just knows Batman Returns and his incarnation in the Loeb/Sale stuff.
 
lol again the penguin really is kinda of unrealistic, in most of his forms- Nolan said that the Penguin that the fans are used to e.g. small big nose character would be hard to adapt into the films! not the penguin overall, who woud be just a normal mob boss, in which case you would moan about the fact that the character isnt like what he should be

Nolan has done far much more for Batman then Burton has
-peace
 
Nolan has done far much more for Batman then Burton has
-peace

exactly what? Burton's Batman put the character back on the "cultural radar" and the sold issues rose and rose.

Batman Begins had almost no effect.
 
lol again the penguin really is kinda of unrealistic, in most of his forms- Nolan said that the Penguin that the fans are used to e.g. small big nose character would be hard to adapt into the films! not the penguin overall, who woud be just a normal mob boss, in which case you would moan about the fact that the character isnt like what he should be

Nolan has done far much more for Batman then Burton has
-peace


But Nolan's movies did not make the cultural impact and overall 'hype' for the chracter that Burton's movies generated.
 
But he could have consulted Batman comics as preparation for B89.

Of course he did

Michael Uslan (executive producer of WB's Batman film series) said:
Even when I showed them [the dark Batman comic books - old and current. And those were the only ones I showed Tim Burton - I only let Tim see the original year of the Bob Kane/Bill Finger run, up until the time that Robin was introduced. I showed him the Steve Englehart/Marshall Rogers and the Neal Adams/Denny O'Neil stories. My biggest fear was that somehow Tim would get hold of the campiest Batman comics and then where would we be?

SOURCE: http://www.batman-on-film.com/interview_muslan_2.html
 
Guys, Tim Burton did read some Batman comics. He was a fan of the character, just not every single solitary "comic book element" of it. But read the first "treatment" done for the Batman movie, long before Sam Hamm came aboard, and you'll see that there was a definite knowledge of Batman comics going into it.
 
yeah.. but was the treatment the pre-Burton Tom Mankiewicz script, because if it is Burton had nothing to do with that.
 
i thought this thread was bout Kevin Smith and Burton. not nolan vs. burton. :confused.
 
But Nolan's movies did not make the cultural impact and overall 'hype' for the chracter that Burton's movies generated.
This is true, but it's only March.

I remember the summer of 89 being The Year Of The Bat. Batman was everywhere. I went to a concert that year and the line up was Vixen, White Lion, and Ozzy. Ozzy didn't do anything Batman related, but Vixens bassist played the TV show theme during her solo and the lead singer of White Lion had spandex pants on that had Batman on the right leg and the Gotham skyline with bat signal on the left.

I doubt if this year will reach anywhere near the the marketing dominance of 89.
 
i thought this thread was bout Kevin Smith and Burton. not nolan vs. burton. :confused.

Criticizing Burton is like criticizing Hillary Clinton... it's only a matter of time before Obama/Nolan shows up.
 
Burton is a successful hypocrite.

False.

He said he would never read a comic book, but he made a Batman movie.

He said to Kevin Smith (and this is a second-hand story from Smith himself, mind you) that he would never read a comic book. But considering the fact that Burton admitted that of the few comics he read as a child, the Batman comics were his favorite and his own addmittance of possible dyslexia as a child inhibiting him from really enjoying them on the same level we do, renders that myth invalid.

What he means when he said "he would never read a comic book" is that he would never read one now. But he admits that he liked the characters from comics as a child, and it is confirmed that he read and source "The Dark Knight Returns", "The Killing Joke" and a smattering of others to prepare for making Batman. And also from Uslan, the early Kane material, the 80s comics and the 70s comics.

Burton did as much research for his first film as Nolan did for his. How can people still be blind to this fact, all of these years later with the internet and all of it's sources?

Burton just makes the Joker kill the Waynes, change the Penguin and has Batman kill as per the early comics, and everything about the two films is wrong? WTF?

Not a single person who uses this crap against Burton ever has a sound argument beyond a lame one-sentance poke at him. Truly unimaginative ones at that. And maybe if people actually did the research, some of these people would realize how flat wrong they are and clam up to avoid making themselves look like an ignorant twit.

The "Tim Burton and his films are exceedingly inaccurate and he doesn't care about accuracy or read comics" myth is weak and pathetic. It really needs to be eliminated. That ignorance keeps getting perpetuated, and look at this thread: you get several people believing in these myths and trumpeting them as fact. But do they care about the right answer? Not really, no.
 
Guys, Tim Burton did read some Batman comics. He was a fan of the character, just not every single solitary "comic book element" of it. But read the first "treatment" done for the Batman movie, long before Sam Hamm came aboard, and you'll see that there was a definite knowledge of Batman comics going into it.

I'd like to get a look at this thing. It's the treatment he did with Julie Hickson, right?

And it can't be Mankiewicz, as that was not a treatment, but a full script.
 
But read the first "treatment" done for the Batman movie, long before Sam Hamm came aboard, and you'll see that there was a definite knowledge of Batman comics going into it.

I would love to see this. Do you know if it's available online anywhere?
 
OK so I looked on google and the only thing I found was an article recapping Burton and Hickson's original treatment. Some of it does sound very good and definitely Ie: Thomas Wayne and his bat costume, Thorne's Lew Moxon-esque role, a much more developed relationship between Wayne/Batman and Gordon and some of it seems awfully contrived Ie: the rogues present during the circus scene, The Joker being responsible for the Wayne muder it was handled better in the final product. But had it been streamlined during the scripting process and the more ridiculous moments ommited I think it could've been a contender. Here's the article

By Andy Mangels - Wizard #11, July 1992
Now, to the real subject of the column. The BATMAN that almost was and may yet be . . . Tim Burton's original idea for his BATMAN film. Burton was unhappy with Sam Hamm's script for BATMAN II, and brought in Dan Waters and Wesley Strick to start anew. But, as you'll see, the tone and style of BATMAN RETURNS may have some resemblances to the following . . . written seven years ago by the Burton meister himself! Written by TIM BURTON and JULIE HICKSON—October 21, 1985.

Although this is only 43 pages long, it seemed much longer. With three acts, all overly full of batdoings, this plot by BATMAN director Tim Burton with co-scribe Julie Hickson could well have been several movies . . . if it wasn't so stupid, contrived, and, well, comic-booky in the worst sense of the phrase.

Bat-historians will note that this Treatment/Outline was turned in in 1985, quite a bit after the Tom Mankiewicz script, but well before Sam Hamm's script. This outline is an odd mixture of scene descriptions, dialogue, camera angles, and plot synopsis. Reading it, one feels very much as if it were written by four different people, in four different styles.

Act One, entitled "Loss," begins with a full-screen shot of the Joker laughing, before fading to Gotham City: "a little New York, a little Max Fleisher, a lot of Fritz Lang's METROPOLIS." With aerial tramways and blimps, it sounds more like WATCHMEN combined with METROPOLIS than anything else. As we switch to Gotham Municipal Courthouse, Thomas Wayne, counsel for the Subcommittee on Investigation into Racketeering, rails on against mob boss Rupert Thorne. We cut to the Waynes at home that evening, preparing for a costume party after an evening trip to the Gotham Opera's DER FLEDERMAUS ("The Bat-Man"). Thomas, of course, wears a "majestic bat costume," while Martha is a "delicately shimmering fairy queen" and young Bruce is a "small whirling harlequin."

Walking home from the party, while "our hearts are melting for the uniquely harmonious family, the unthinkable happens." A Mr. Softee ice cream truck glides around the corner, and to the "insipid tinkling style music," the Waynes are gunned down. As Bruce lets loose with an "eerie, guttural, animal-like screaming of a boy in unthinkable pain," he manages to see the murderer in the truck: a 17-year-old boy with green hair, white skin, and a red-lipped smile!

As the police show up, Alfred Pennyworth vows to Bruce that "as long as I live, you will never be alone." Days later at the funeral, Bruce makes a solemn vow to avenge his parents' death and declare war on crime.

Act Two is called "Preparation-Transformation," and in it, Bruce trains to become Batman. He continues collecting information about Rupert Thorne, who he is sure ordered his parents' death, and grows ever closer to Commissioner Gordon. Years later, a newspaper headline screams out "Joker Escapes Prison! Vows Revenge Against Mayor Rupert Thorne." That day, the Joker begins a "carefully masterminded reign of terror in Gotham City," which includes releasing animals from the zoo, preempting TV broadcasts, painting all the windows of Gotham's skyscrapers black, and making the subways run backwards! When the Joker pre-empts himself into the LOVE BOAT (with guest stars Tom Bosley, Cloris Leachman, and Andy Warhol), Bruce begins to take notice. Bruce goes to his room, dons his Batman suit for the first time, and slips out a window. "The Princess of Darkness is Born!"

In Gotham Square, the Joker is busy launching the city's Christmas tree into space, Batman shows up and they start to duel on the ice-skating rink—"punctuated by all the requisite silliness of pratfalls." The Joker gets away now, able to carry out more pranks against Gotham, including painting the entire city candy-striped colors, coercing union leaders to call strikes throughout the city, and setting of bombs. Bruce cannot track the maniac down until Joker sets off fireworks at a performance of the MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM. There, Bruce saves the life of singer Silver St. John, who is portraying Titania, the Fairy Queen.

While Bruce is spending the night with Silver, as the Joker plans to mock-elect himself Mayor and throw a parade at which several balloons will carry his special "Grimacing Gas." After the Joker uses the gas on performers at a comedy club, Commissioner Gordon establishes the Bat-Signal to contact Batman, who he's now asked to help out on the case. The Joker strikes next at a charity circus where Bruce and Silver are in attendance. There, in disguises are the Penguin as the ringmaster, the Riddler as a clown, and the Catwoman as a trapeze artist. When Catwoman pours acid on the trapeze of the Flying Graysons ("the main attractions"), John and Mary fall to their deaths, while young Dick miraculously survives.

Running to the sobbing Grayson's side, Bruce scoops him up and carries him to his car, promising him that "As long as I live, you will never be alone." Sound familiar?

Finally, in Act Three's "Retribution—Family," Bruce adopts Dick, the Joker dresses as the Mad Hatter and is "interviewed" by Barbara Walters (whom he's holding at gunpoint.) The Joker kills Rupert Thorne in a "mayoral" debate, then throws a parade on Christmas Eve, where "the Jokerian humor, election eve has been designed to coincide with . . ." When Bruce looks closer at the parade, he realizes that Joker's hoods are wearing gas masks underneath their Mardi Gras masks. Bruce also realizes that the huge parade balloons are filled with the "deadly Grimacing Gas." A confrontation soon ensues, where the Joker and Batman are both carried aloft by the helium balloons.

When they both crash through the skylight of the Gotham City Natural History Museum, it's up to the new hero, Robin, to save Batman's life. When Batman throttles the Joker and puts a gun to his head, Commissioner Gordon arrives and puts an end to the potentially ugly scene.

The movie ends as Bruce, Silver, Dick, and Alfred open presents on Christmas Day. Reaching for the last present under the tree, Bruce is shocked to see that it is wrapped in purple and green, with a clownish Jack-in-the-box face on it. As the screen fades to black, the laughing face of the Joker appears again.

I would love to read that treatment in it's entirety one day.
 
Even I have to admit.... that's.... wow.

I mean, it reads like an only-half decent episode of TAS.

But still, it's clear to see that Burton's heart was in the right place overall. It's accurate enough that one can't deny he had knowledge of the character, at least more than many people realize.

But in the end, thank God for Sam Hamm.
 
What I find interesting is that scene where Batman holds a gun to The Joker's head and then Gordon intervenes and mediates. It's so funny how many times in the comics there have been very similar scenarios to that one since 1985 when that treatment was written. A lot of The Joker's capers were straight up stupid and too silver agey for their own good I mean the skyscraper, candy cane and launching the christmas tree into space bits. Dick Grayson was also totally unneccessary from the sounds of it. Silver dressed similar to Bruce's mom on the night she died is even more contrived crap.

But with some tweaking this could've been a very competent Batman story for sure and the amount of comic accuracy in it is pretty impressive. But yeah Hamm did some amazing stuff. His original draft is right up there with Miller/Aronofsky's Y1 as my favorite Batman film that never saw the light of day.
 
exactly what? Burton's Batman put the character back on the "cultural radar" and the sold issues rose and rose.

Batman Begins had almost no effect.


yeah they rose and rose then stopped!

Begins brought the respect the character deserved and concentrated on the character in the title BATMAN lol
all in all burtons batman is only great in most poeples thoughts due to its gothic look and take

I admire the burton films and respect wat it did for the character, but begins did what the majority of fans wanted which was adapting teh right source material, and giving us the proper batman from the comics!
 

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