The Villains Problem

[Tony Stark]

Personally, my issue I have with Zemo in Civil War is that I feel like he didn't need to be in the movie. The conflict between Tony and Steve was strong enough and could have driven the whole movie. You didn't really need a villain.

Plus, everyone knows the best comicbook movie villain of last year was Francis.

I disagree, Zemo represented exactly why Steve was wrong. Tony was wrong too, they both were wrong and both right, and that was the point of the movie. Zemo represents the consequences of the Avengers having unchecked power. Zemo knew everything Steve lied to Tony about, and Steve thought he could keep that from Tony with no consequences.

 

[Ivan Drago]

I just think Civil War would have been a more interesting movie without a main villain. Would have been a first for the genre too.

 

[Tony Stark]

Superman and Batman as well as Luthor and Joker will always be held to a higher standard because of previous incarnations and popularity. Fair or unfair.

I get that with Joker. I don't think Luthor has ever been done well. I like Gene Hackman as an actor, but I didn't like his Lex Luthor.

 

[Erzengel]

I get that with Joker. I don't think Luthor has ever been done well. I like Gene Hackman as an actor, but I didn't like his Lex Luthor.

Even if you want to debate that he's never been done correctly, we also had about half a dozen iterations of Luthor since Superman 1.

 

[GeckoMoria]

The conflict would never be as personal if it wasn't for Zemo. Tony would go all out just for the Accords. Also Zemo was by far the best villain of 2016 and is regarded as one of the best MCU villains so it was a plus.

 

[The Joker]

I get that with Joker. I don't think Luthor has ever been done well. I like Gene Hackman as an actor, but I didn't like his Lex Luthor.

I agree. No movie Luthor has been held in any high regard as a villain.

 

[metaphysician]

He had nothing essential to Helmut Zemo. He wasn't born into a long legacy of "Master Race" ideology, wasn't shown to be an expert with firearms or a sword, he didn't possess the key resentment of Captain America due to disfigurement, and he wasn't shown to be a scientific genius who could invent and wield Adhesive X. The MCU Zemo was an empty cliche' whose simplistic plan could have easily been implemented by Crossbones.

Half the things you mention are basically "Heath Ledger isn't the Joker because he doesn't use a poison trick flower". Hell, Adhesive X wasn't even *invented* by Helmut, it was invented by Heinrich. Helmut has never been particularly a scientific genius, his skills have first and foremost been leadership and planning.

As for the rest? His ties to "Master Race" ideology have been desultory at best for decades, existing largely to provide a start to his vendetta against Captain America. Hell, its been a good 20-25 years since he outright rejected Nazism as stupid. Likewise his scarring, which only really existed as part of the vendetta. Neither thing actually *mattered*, in itself; what mattered was the fact of the vendetta, the way Helmut was driven to avenge himself against Captain America and the Avengers. Helmut Zemo was not defined by what happened to him, but what he did to and against the Avengers. And that? The movie kept that just fine. It just changed the details about how the vendetta started. . . though he's still brutally scarred as a result of the Avengers ( by the loss of his family ), and he's still connected to Not!Nazis ( Hydra in Sokovia ).

 

[Lantern Venom]

Half the things you mention are basically "Heath Ledger isn't the Joker because he doesn't use a poison trick flower". Hell, Adhesive X wasn't even *invented* by Helmut, it was invented by Heinrich. Helmut has never been particularly a scientific genius, his skills have first and foremost been leadership and planning.

As for the rest? His ties to "Master Race" ideology have been desultory at best for decades, existing largely to provide a start to his vendetta against Captain America. Hell, its been a good 20-25 years since he outright rejected Nazism as stupid. Likewise his scarring, which only really existed as part of the vendetta. Neither thing actually *mattered*, in itself; what mattered was the fact of the vendetta, the way Helmut was driven to avenge himself against Captain America and the Avengers. Helmut Zemo was not defined by what happened to him, but what he did to and against the Avengers. And that? The movie kept that just fine. It just changed the details about how the vendetta started. . . though he's still brutally scarred as a result of the Avengers ( by the loss of his family ), and he's still connected to Not!Nazis ( Hydra in Sokovia ).

No, that's a false equivalency. CA:CW didn't just change one piece of Zemo's equipment, it gutted him. Sadly, Marvel could have finally given Cap a worthy adversary since Weaving changed their plans for Red Skull, but audiences were left with a suicidal INO. His myopic motivation isn't conducive to a new Hydra or the Masters of Evil, so the character is used up unless there is a total overhaul in the future. Even Bruhl admitted that he was an INO, so there's no argument here.

 

[2kt09]

Even if you want to debate that he's never been done correctly, we also had about half a dozen iterations of Luthor since Superman 1.

Right. Like others implied the only "good" ones were either animated or made-for-tv.

Personally, my issue I have with Zemo in Civil War is that I feel like he didn't need to be in the movie. The conflict between Tony and Steve was strong enough and could have driven the whole movie. You didn't really need a villain.

I certainly remember posting to that sentiment. Tony and Steve were never truly "friends", but at the same time they were barely enemies. Just two members of the same team who put up with each other to save the day. Their tensions could have easily been organically built to an erupting point.
Like Tony's always so insecure and even envious, whereas Steve understood that and would have had enough of that bs being projected on to him.

 

[The Joker]

Even Bruhl admitted that he was an INO, so there's no argument here.

Where did he admit that?

 

[Lantern Venom]

Where did he admit that?

With the focus of Captain America: Civil War being on the conflict between Captain America (Chris Evans) and Iron Man (Robert Downey Jr.), it’s easy to forget that Baron Zemo -- played by Daniel Brühl (Inglourious Basterds) -- is most likely going to be the real villain of the superhero piece.

In the pages of the Marvel comics, Zemo was a former top Nazi scientist. But since Civil War takes place TODAY, the Russo brothers will put a modern spin on the classic World War II character so he can fit smoothly in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In order to do that, something's got to go.

In an interview with Business Insider while promoting his next movie, Burnt (starring Bradley Cooper), Brühl told the site that Zemo will lose one of his trademark costume pieces. “He does not wear the mask,” the actor said.

Brühl is, of course, referring to the iconic purple hood Zemo wears all the time in the pages of the comics. The character became famous for wearing said mask after a fight with Captain America led to his being doused with a vat of a powerful adhesive known as Adhesive X, preventing Zemo from ever removing the hood until after the war, when a way to neutralize it was found. Brühl also added that his take on the character will be different from what we're used to see in the pages of the Marvel comics.

“You would be surprised, it's different than what you'd think,” said Brühl, talking about the Zemo character we see in Civil War. “It's loosely connected to this character. But that's what I like about the Marvel guys, some of the characters and things they're dealing with always reference to current events so my character is from a different area than you would think.”

http://www.blastr.com/2015-10-20/daniel-brühl-explains-how-baron-zemo-will-be-different-captain-america-civil-war

 

[The Joker]

I don't see anything in his quotes that says this character is in name only.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I don't see anything in his quotes that says this character is in name only.

"Different than what we're used to" and "loosely based" aren't difficult to decipher. Those are thin veils for "we wanted a name that would resonate with pre-existing fans and be clickbait, but we aren't actually telling that story." It's a textbook scenario that spawned the 'net lingo INO.

 

[The Joker]

Baloney. So many great adaptions of CBM characters have been "different than what we're used to" while still retaining the spirit of the comic book characters they're based on.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Baloney. So many great adaptions of CBM characters have been "different than what we're used to" while still retaining the spirit of the comic book characters they're based on.

Salami. There is simply no way to change a character's ideology, modus operandi, weaponry, place of origin, physical appearance, and motivation for hating the heroes yet still honor the spirit if the character. Bruhl knew that, which prompted the admission. Luckily for him, the movie in which his INO character appeared took the focus off of him.

 

[Evil Twin]

This article, with a different take on the question, might be fodder for discussion.

http://www.modernmythmedia.com/2017...em-is-really-an-emotional-connection-problem/

 

[Batmannerism]

I disagree, Zemo represented exactly why Steve was wrong. Tony was wrong too, they both were wrong and both right, and that was the point of the movie. Zemo represents the consequences of the Avengers having unchecked power. Zemo knew everything Steve lied to Tony about, and Steve thought he could keep that from Tony with no consequences.

Agreed, also Zemo was the catalyst for the boiling over of all all those unpleasant truths that the Avengers were hiding beneath their invincible exterior.

I've said it a bunch of times, but Bruhl doesn't get enough credit for the role.
In his final appearance, where Ross is threatening and taunting him, Bruhl plays it ice cold -he only says two words and you only see him smile slightly in the reflection but they're chilling, because Zemo knows he's just about irreperably damaged the Avengers and destroyed any sense of trust between Tony and Steve.

He also shows us how even people as powerful as the Avengers can be brought low by a combination of intelligence and total commitment - I loved that he was a very human character.

I don't think Civil War would have been anywhere near as good without Zemo.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Agreed, also Zemo was the catalyst for the boiling over of all all those unpleasant truths that the Avengers were hiding beneath their invincible exterior.

I've said it a bunch of times, but Bruhl doesn't get enough credit for the role.
In his final appearance, where Ross is threatening and taunting him, Bruhl plays it ice cold -he only says two words and you only see him smile slightly in the reflection but they're chilling, because Zemo knows he's just about irreperably damaged the Avengers and destroyed any sense of trust between Tony and Steve.

He also shows us how even people as powerful as the Avengers can be brought low by a combination of intelligence and total commitment - I loved that he was a very human character.

I don't think Civil War would have been anywhere near as good without Zemo.

I did like Zemo a lot and agree with much of what you said. Bruhl was great and I loved his final scene and the way he played it.

However I felt that was all undermined by the scene after, where Steve and Tony pretty much did reconcile over Steve's letter. And the Avengers will all come back when they are needed. It was a somewhat happy ending in a story which should have ended unhappily for me.

Think how much more dramatic it would have been all the Avengers getting back together to face Thanos while many of them, but especially Steve and Tony, are still completely at odds.

Instead because of the ending we know all it will take is a phone call to bring The Avengers back together. Stuff like this is why I haven't enjoyed CW as much on re-watch.

To be fair though, none of that is Zemo's fault. I actually wish the movie would have ended with his final scene.

 

[NHawk19]

Agreed, also Zemo was the catalyst for the boiling over of all all those unpleasant truths that the Avengers were hiding beneath their invincible exterior.

I've said it a bunch of times, but Bruhl doesn't get enough credit for the role.
In his final appearance, where Ross is threatening and taunting him, Bruhl plays it ice cold -he only says two words and you only see him smile slightly in the reflection but they're chilling, because Zemo knows he's just about irreperably damaged the Avengers and destroyed any sense of trust between Tony and Steve.

He also shows us how even people as powerful as the Avengers can be brought low by a combination of intelligence and total commitment - I loved that he was a very human character.

I don't think Civil War would have been anywhere near as good without Zemo.

Even if they just used this movie to establish Zemo, they did a decent job of it. My only issue though is his laser like focus on revenge for his family. I'll be curious to see if they bring him back again, and what his motivation is the next time around.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Baloney. So many great adaptions of CBM characters have been "different than what we're used to" while still retaining the spirit of the comic book characters they're based on.

How is MCU Zemo anything BUT an INO? You literally could have given him any other name and it wouldn't have changed a thing. I'm not saying he was a bad character, he just wasn't Zemo.

 

[Lantern Venom]

How is MCU Zemo anything BUT an INO? You literally could have given him any other name and it wouldn't have changed a thing. I'm not saying he was a bad character, he just wasn't Zemo.

That's exactly how I feel. If Feige &Co. needed a modern character for a simple revenge narrative, why bother invoking the Zemo legacy? The character wasn't bad in and of itself, and wouldn't have been diminished in any way had his name been something new like Colonel Jackson. But it's frustrating when a legendary Avengers/Cap villain is promised and is presented with his backstory completely altered and his essence drained.

 

[Batmannerism]

I did like Zemo a lot and agree with much of what you said. Bruhl was great and I loved his final scene and the way he played it.

However I felt that was all undermined by the scene after, where Steve and Tony pretty much did reconcile over Steve's letter. And the Avengers will all come back when they are needed. It was a somewhat happy ending in a story which should have ended unhappily for me.

Think how much more dramatic it would have been all the Avengers getting back together to face Thanos while many of them, but especially Steve and Tony, are still completely at odds.

Instead because of the ending we know all it will take is a phone call to bring The Avengers back together. Stuff like this is why I haven't enjoyed CW as much on re-watch.

To be fair though, none of that is Zemo's fault. I actually wish the movie would have ended with his final scene.

Yeah, that's true. Steve's Nokia "olive branch" does diminish the ending somewhat - but I feel they had to have a sense of hope in there. My only complaint with Logan was that the ending was a bit too bleak. I don't need a happy ending, but I feel that even tragic endings should have an uplifting element to them (e.g. the Dark Knight).

I guess CW had to lay the groundwork for future films - and again, none of this diminishes Zemo as a character.

 

[King23DC]

Hardy's Bane and Shannon's Zod were both awesome. Just not Ledger Joker level. But that's because that's the best, most interesting, charismatic and terrifying villain in the entire genre. So, not entirely accurate. Both were compelling and brought enough tension to their movies, or obstacles for the hero to overcome.

 

[dax]

I disagree, Zemo represented exactly why Steve was wrong. Tony was wrong too, they both were wrong and both right, and that was the point of the movie. Zemo represents the consequences of the Avengers having unchecked power. Zemo knew everything Steve lied to Tony about, and Steve thought he could keep that from Tony with no consequences.

Zemo also represents the consequences of forcing the Avengers into governmental supervision. Him blowing up the U.N. building which caused half of the Avengers to sign the accords while the other half become wanted fugitives not only led to their infighting and eventual disassembling, it also left the entire world more vunerable and defenseless especially when Thanos will soon make his grand entrance in Avengers: Infinity War.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

FINALLY! The main villain in GOTG is the best one in a CBM in a long time. We had been long overdue for a truly fantastic villain.