World Thor (from TDW) vs Superman (from MOS) who wins in a fight, and why ?

[BigThor]

Thor lighting is around 18,000°F. Did a little bit a research and some one said to melt steel around the size of a nut or a bolt you would have to use a plasma torch that could heat it to around 2500°F.. Even then would take about about 2 to 3 minutes to completely liquefy steel that size. MOS Superman did it in under a second to an entire I beam. They only way to instantly vaporize steel like that is with the heat from core of a Nuclear bomb blast. That runs around 50 to 150 million degrees Fahrenheit. I may be wrong though.

Now Supes heat vision may be hotter since it is "heat" vision after all, but Thor's lightning has been shown to but MUCH more destructive.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Now Supes heat vision may be hotter since it is "heat" vision after all, but Thor's lightning has been shown to but MUCH more destructive.

While neither is a nice "literal" interpretation, what makes Thor's lightning do damage is its heat. Thor's lightning can cover much more ground and take out a small city in seconds imo, while Supes heat vision is more direct. Thor's lightning also has a wider variety.

 

[Batmannerism]

First, that's more like it Thor fans ! Big ups to Darth and Big Thor for taking the debate to the next level.

Even some scientific data for heat vision vs lightning, nice.

I would like to add.

1) I strongly disagree with anyone who suggests Thor is as strong as Supes.

E.g. Nam Ek throws a locomotive about half a mile at Supes, they are comparable in terms of strength, so we can assume Supes could do the same. Could Thor do that ? I don't think we see him lift anything near
that in terms of weight.

Zod kicked a tanker truck across the road at Supes, almost casually. Supes being even stronger than Zod, could easily do the same.
Thor ?

2) invulnerability: Supes was hit by the above locomotive, and re-entered the atmosphere, and was smashed through several skyscrapers with nary a hair out of place.

Thor was slammed into a hillside by Kurse, then had a boulder smashed into him and then was well on his way into being pounded into hamburger, until Loki intervened. So, it looks like invulnerability advantage to Supes.



3) speed: I concede that Supes is pretty crap at using his super speed. (even in the comics). In MOS he seemed to be capable of incredible bursts of speed, but nothing sustained (except flight).
Now Faora, she would **** up Thor with her fighting skills, strength and speed !

4) heat vision vs lightning. Well Darth 's numbers are hard to argue with, heat vision is hotter. But Supes isn't the kind of guy to incinerate Thor (or cut him in half, like Zod cut that building in half with a short burst of h-vis).
Lightning would be tough for Supes to dodge, being so unpredictable and it would certainly hurt him.....but humans survive lightning strikes every year, so it ain't going to kill him. Malekith was burnt by lightning, but survived.

on the subject of the Space whales, Iron man took one out by flying thru it, and in terms of power, he's a guy in a suit of armour, so maybe they ain't so tough. The hulk stopping one in flight was pretty impressive.

Supes was knocked down for a few seconds by a blast from the scoutship (in Smallville) that pretty much vaporized a jet.

All in all, I doubt Thor's lightning would kill Supes, but I'm sure it could stun/hurt him. However, in MOS he seems to recover very quickly.

5) Tornadoes: Would definitely be a good distraction, but since Supes could fly up the gravity beam (while weakened by the world engine) he could probably deal with them.


No one has dared to take on "Could Supes lift mjolnir ?" because I think that's the most decisive part of any Thor v Supes fight.

Thanks again for kicking it up a notch people. ! I think there are definitely arguments that Thor could, in the right circumstances, defeat Superman.
So go for it !

 

[BigThor]

Strength - You're ignoring something that I've said a thousand times but everyone.chooses to ignore, Thor CAUGHT A PUNCH FROM THE HULK THE SAME ARM THAT STOPPED THE SPACE WHALE. It doesn't matter how tough they are, were talking about several thousands of tons here, that was a huge strength feat. So with that being said Thor should have enough strength to do the same except using both arms.

So why in the world would Thor not be able to throw a measly truck or even a locomotive which is still lightweight compared to the tonnage of Hulk's punch?

Invulnerability - Yeah Kurse left Thor a few surface scars nothing major, but you're forgetting the fact that Thor was UNSCATHED by a point blank semi-nuclear sized explosion when he destroyed the bi frost in Thor. Not to mention a several point blank range blast from Odin's spear without a single scratch, scrape, or bruise. As well as falling 30,000 feet from THE Helicarrier damaged, and being scraped against a mountainside by Iron Man again he got up from all these things literally in perfect condition.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And yet Loki hurt him with a little dagger. To the point that he had trouble landing a few moments later.

The Hulk punch thing, I am not sure about, mainly because we don't know how strong Hulk was at that moment. The best domestration of Asgardian strength is in a deleted scene from the first movie. Volstagg helping the child retrieve their ball.

Unlike Thor, Superman hasn't had to compete with different writers and script based injuries yet. We will see what happens when Batman shows up. I expect plenty of stupid when that happens.

 

[BigThor]

And yet Loki hurt him with a little dagger. To the point that he had trouble landing a few moments later.

The Hulk punch thing, I am not sure about, mainly because we don't know how strong Hulk was at that moment. The best domestration of Asgardian strength is in a deleted scene from the first movie. Volstagg helping the child retrieve their ball.

Unlike Thor, Superman hasn't had to compete with different writers and script based injuries yet. We will see what happens when Batman shows up. I expect plenty of stupid when that happens.

Well unlike Superman, Thor was in a film with several other supersedes and couldn' be totally invulnerable. Besides "low showing" are invalid, especially when you can tell they'rejust there because the story calls for it even though they make no sense.

 

[Rock Sexton]

And yet Loki hurt him with a little dagger. To the point that he had trouble landing a few moments later.

An Asgardian dagger .... big difference there.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well unlike Superman, Thor was in a film with several other supersedes and couldn' be totally invulnerable. Besides "low showing" are invalid, especially when you can tell they'rejust there because the story calls for it even though they make no sense.

Not sure what you mean by low showing"? But if the idea is that Thor has been played down because he can't go around making everyone else look useless, I agree. I except the same will happen when Clark meets Bruce, Diana, Barry/Wally, etc. Though in general the JL packs more of a punch, Batman aside.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

An Asgardian dagger .... big difference there.

True. Kal-El didn't respond to Kryptonian tech nearly as well either. The robot in the ship hurt him, made him bleed I believe, and the blast from the shuttle knocked him for a bit of a loop.

 

[BigThor]

Not sure what you mean by low showing"? But if the idea is that Thor has been played down because he can't go around making everyone else look useless, I agree. I except the same will happen when Clark meets Bruce, Diana, Barry/Wally, etc. Though in general the JL packs more of a punch, Batman aside.

Low showing is a term a lot comic books fans use to describe situational moments of weakness that go against how a character is portrayed on average.

IE. Superman being knocked out by a gas station blowing up in the comics. When normally he shrugs off much MUCH bigger things and yes I do agree with you that it is sometimes necessary.

 

[Batmannerism]

I posted this in the other thread, to rebut your comparative strength hypothesis. But I thought I'd repost it, as it addresses your points here.

Don't take this personally, you're doing a great job of arguing on the Thunder God's behalf. But I seriously think that the strength angle
is not the best way to go.

You said earlier....

I liken everyone being enamored by MOS Supes strength feats to people going with flashy knock out guys like Tyson/Pacquiao over the Ali/Weather type fighters.

Yes MOS Supes was strong, but did he really do much in the film that Thor couldn't do? Let's not forget that Thor caught and overpowered a punch from Hulk, now it doesn't sound like much but take into account this was the same arm that stopped that space whale in it's tracks. Now I know it wasn't as gratuitously flashy as punching someone through a building or any of the other stuff MOS Supes did but it's just as big when you think about it. A blow from Hulk has more tonnage behind it than that oil tanker Supes caught, the diesel he threw in the power lines, or most of the other things MOS Supes lifted.

The only feat I don't see Thor being able to do is resisting and powering through that gravity ray from that terraforming machine. So in essence while MOS Supes may "seem" lot stronger than MCU Thor their strength level are lot closer than you guys think. MOS was directed by Zack Snyder OF COURSE he's going to have more testosterone fueled strength feats than most other CBM, but that shouldn't cloud anyone's judgement on this matter. To be honest MOS Supes is nowhere near as strong as Donner's Superman, as a matter of fact he's far and away the weakest on film Superman yer.

Dude ! That's the Spirit! While I utterly disagree, I respect your opinion totally.

personally, I reckon that arguing based on physical strength is probably not going to win Thor the fight, because obviously Superman is stronger than Thor. I reckon arguing along the fighting skills, strategy and experience is a better path for you Asgard-i-fans.

- Yes, Thor blocked a punch from the Hulk, but (and I'm speaking from experience) if you do it right, you can block a punch from someone
much stronger than yourself, it's mostly about angles.
And if it really had that much force behind it, it would have driven Thor through the floor (at least MOS got the physics right on that one, that even though Supes could hold up the oil rig tower, the beams he was standing on couldn't).

(space whales...hmmm, iron man took one out from the inside, and he's just a guy in a suit, Thor nearly kicked his ass -Supes certainly would, so maybe the old space whales weren't so tough. )

- What's Thor's greatest feat of strength ? Nam Ek throws a locomotive at Supes from about half-a mile away (which means Supes could probably do the same), not sure we've seen Thor do anything like that. Sure, he's a heavy hitter, but we don't see him lifting anything remotely as big as Supes can.

(and on the invulnerability front, Zod dishes out way more punishment than Kurse, who nearly killed Thor by chucking him into a hill and hitting him with a boulder, Zod hit Supes with a Sattelite and knocked him through four skyscrapers. Thor may have fallen 30,000 feet, but I seem to recall him bursting out of the cage before impact, it took him a little while to get up and find his hammer CF Supes and Zod fell from Earth's orbit -although they would have had to slow their descent significantly otherwise Metropolis would have been vaporized on impact, but anyway re-entry beats 30,000 feet )

So, it's not that Supes seems stronger than Thor, he is stronger, end of story.
True, he's nowhere near Donner's Superman (which is great, I love the way he has to grunt and strain to do stuff like fly up the gravity beam or lift the oil rig, or whenever he exerts himself - I like it because it means it isn't easy for him, and that fits more with a 21st century Superman. Reeve made it look easy back in 1978, but that was 25 years ago, times have changed.

Okay, I digress. So, I feel I have refuted your arguments in respect of the comparative strengths of Thor and Superman.

However, there are many, many real life instances of people beating much stronger opponents - particularly when there's a big skill difference, such as there would be between Supes and Thor. Thor is a warrior, born and trained from a young age, Clark is a .......farmer. Now MOS showed he has a wicked overhand right, but he's not particularly skilful, it's just balls to the wall.

(if you're a true Marvel fan, you might mention that Spider-Man once defeated the Juggernaut -back at the height of his powers- who is literally 10x stronger, and completely indestructible - he can go toe to toe with an enraged Hulk and not be particularly harmed, and slapped Colossus around like a child. )

so, as I've said bro, there certainly are circumstances under which Thor could defeat Supes, but come on buddy, admit it, an arm wrestle or a mere contest of strength isn't it.

As for the Asgardian dagger, that's an interesting one. Supes certainly
did get hurt by the zap from the scout-ship (although those same blasts
practically disintegrated the army jets). Remember in Thor where he says in his world magic and technology are the same thing, and Jane figures out how the Asgardian scanning machine works (in TDW), and of course the Dark Elves use high-tech guns and spaceships. As such, I reckon Asgardian weapons would probably hurt Supes, although I'd still argue he'd be able to resist them far more than Thor - especially after the beating Thor got from Kurse.


Having said that, and given your creative arguments in support of the Thunder God, I have no doubt you'll be back in no time with something
clever. You've definitely raised the bar.

Hope you enjoyed TDW, I thought it was awesome, the best
Marvel movie this year, by far.

Thanks again for making these threads so much fun !

 

[divan]

I also think that MOS Superman is also vulnerable when in an atmosphere different from Earth's for a prolongued time.

The World Engine was a problem because it was surronded by an atmosphere that took part of Supeman's powers.

Therefore... Where does the battle take place? Does Asgard have a Yellow Sun?

 

[Batmannerism]

.... and while we're here. Do you think Supes could lift mjolnir ?


I say yes, because of his physical strength, and moral worthiness.

But I'm biased.

What do the Asgardi-fans think >

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I also think that MOS Superman is also vulnerable when in an atmosphere different from Earth's for a prolongued time.

The World Engine was a problem because it was surronded by an atmosphere that took part of Supeman's powers.

Therefore... Where does the battle take place? Does Asgard have a Yellow Sun?

I am thinking Kryptonian atmosphere works like Kryptonite.

 

[hellinas]

Is thor above class 10 strength based on his feats in the movie?

 

[Batmannerism]

I also think that MOS Superman is also vulnerable when in an atmosphere different from Earth's for a prolongued time.

The World Engine was a problem because it was surronded by an atmosphere that took part of Supeman's powers.

Therefore... Where does the battle take place? Does Asgard have a Yellow Sun?

yeah buddy ! Now we're talking !

To be honest, the way Asgard is shown, if anything the sunlight is brighter
so I reckon Supes might be even more powerful there.

But, if the fight took place in one of the other realms, like Jotunheim or Svartalfheim Supes might be in deep trouble, as there doesn't look like much sunlight there at all.

 

[divan]

I am thinking Kryptonian atmosphere works like Kryptonite.

Yeah but, from what i understood, Jor-El implied that Earth's younger, more energetic sun and more nutritive atmosphere were the cause of Superman's powers.

I'm not saying he loses them the very moment he abandons said atmosphere (otherwise he wouldn't be able to fight in space), but I thought Jor-El implied that, if you take Earth away, you slowly take away Supes powers.

I may have understood that wrong, though.

 

[BigThor]

Aha but Thor didn't just block a blow from Hulk he overpowered it and lifted Hulk's arm up. I never said Supes wasn't stronger than Thor, I just said the difference is not as big as it "seems". Notice my use of the word difference, which basically says yes Sues is stronger but Thor is still strong enough to compete.

Thor also got right up after landing 30,000 it just took him time to locate his hammer. Getting a few surface scratches from Kurse hardly qualifies as nearly dying, I'mon now you're just low selling Thor. I give Supes the edge in both strength and vulnerability, but they're close enough in those areas to where it can still be competitive.

Everyone is intent on low selling Thor in the Misc. Comic Films Section so I'll probably not even waste my time over there.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah but, from what i understood, Jor-El implied that Earth's younger, more energetic sun and more nutritive atmosphere were the cause of Superman's powers.

I'm not saying he loses them the very moment he abandons said atmosphere (otherwise he wouldn't be able to fight in space), but I thought Jor-El implied that, if you take Earth away, you slowly take away Supes powers.

I may have understood that wrong, though.

The way I took it, the Earth's atmosphere was perfect for building up the super being of Clark. It made the yellow's sun energy all the more potent as he grew up. But he had to adjust to it first. As Martha mentions, he was a very sick baby, she worried about him. But as his body became more accustomed, it proved a benefit.

In MoS, it seems anything Kryptonian can do damage to Clark. But if the atmosphere was the "source" of his power, I don't think the other Kryptonians could do what they do (remember, they wear breathers until Zod drops his and they go about wrecking everything) nor would Clark retain his abilities the closer he got to the end of Earth's atmosphere.

 

[BigThor]

.... and while we're here. Do you think Supes could lift mjolnir ?


I say yes, because of his physical strength, and moral worthiness.

But I'm biased.

What do the Asgardi-fans think >

There's nothing to suggest that he could in the film verse, es he's done it in the comics but if he did it in this battle what would be the point of this battle?

That's sort of a cop out to use someone else's weapon, otherwise why not make it Thor vs Thor? I say just stick to what makes each of these guys who they are for this debate.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

There's nothing to suggest that he could in the film verse, es he's done it in the comics but if he did it in this battle what would be the point of this battle?

That's sort of a cop out to use someone else's weapon, otherwise why not make it Thor vs Thor? I say just stick to what makes each of these guys who they are for this debate.

So what happens if it is one on one, no weapons? Does Thor even have a chance?

 

[divan]

In the comics, Superman can't wield Mjölnir naturally. The one time he did, it was because Odin lifted the restriction due to the critical situation. I think the reason Superman can't consistently lift the Mjollinir is that he's too strongly against killing and the Mjollinir was made for killing enemies.

Though maybe, if this is also true for the movie universes, for this reason, MOS Superman would be able to lift the hammer (you know what I mean ).

 

[Batmannerism]

There's nothing to suggest that he could in the film verse, es he's done it in the comics but if he did it in this battle what would be the point of this battle?

That's sort of a cop out to use someone else's weapon, otherwise why not make it Thor vs Thor? I say just stick to what makes each of these guys who they are for this debate.

Dude, I don't see it as a cop out.

Being able to lift mjolnir is a biggie. Thor is a cunning warrior and has used Mjolnir's worthiness requirement to help him tackle both Loki and the Hulk, neither could lift the hammer. If Supes could not lift Mjolnir that might be a game changer - any opponent who can't is at a severe disadvantage if Thor can knock them down.
Just drop the hammer on them, and the fight's over.

An equally good question, is how can Thor negate some of Supes' advantages.

Has Supes lifted Mjolnir in the comic ?
I think he's deflected it, but could he catch it and then hold it ?
Even if he could lift it, throw it, or hit Thor with it, I doubt he could access it's magical powers.

I think we've resolved the strength issue, but I still think you should really push Thor's fighting skills. Given that Asgardians live for 1000's of years,
Thor probably has centuries more fighting experience than Supes. True, at the start of Thor, he's a bit of a dumbass who relies on brute force, but by TDW he's using Mjolnir in a much more strategic fashion.

Dude, I think you should definitely put your arguments out there in the Misc thread. The point of these threads is not to win the argument, but to share your point of view.

Regardless of what I say, you are still entitled to argue Thor's superiority, just as I'm always going to back Supes. It's just fun to have a go at these things.

Back to my earlier question, what tactics could Thor use to overcome Supes' advantages in terms of Strength, speed, invulnerability ?

( arguably Iron man is nowhere near as strong or powerful as Thor, yet held his own against the Thunder God, so it's certainly possible for Thor to do the same against Supes).

 

[Jaxon]

Is Thor's power derived from the Odinforce? If so, given that it is magic he might just be able to take on Supes and win, especially if the lightning from Mjolnir is magic based and not just nature manipulation that hits identicaly to normal storm lightning.
If not, Supes would hand him on a plate.

 

[Micromind]

I haven't seen this movie yet, but the polls results are somewhat surprising... .. given how many Marvel fans visit this thread, the number one option should have been leading by now.