Tilda Swinton Cast as The Ancient One

[BatsDC]

Marvel Studios doesn't care about Asian actors.

Time to abandon thread...

 

[Pokkle]

I think they could have challenged the stereotype better than just by getting a white woman to do it

The problem is even if they did, and made a great character, they would still have received criticism.

It's criticism like you said yourself in the first page that lead to the change:

What I said was that falling back on the ancient asian mystical guy who is apparently a master except it takes a white guy like two days to learn everything he already knows is an embarrassing cliche

They couldn't really win this situation.

 

[TheVision]

I dont buy any of the complaints about the character. You have to see it before you can say stuff like that.

 

[Mike5575]

Marvel should have cast Stan Lee as the Ancient One.

All joking aside, Tilda is an awesome choice and all the complaints about her race or gender are stupid.

 

[Guard82]

Tilda Swinton has the talent, gravitas, and versatility to pull off a role like this one. Regarding questions of race and gender, there would have been criticism no matter what decision was made for the Ancient One. These issues are so thorny, and so many different people can interpret them in so many different ways, that it's virtually impossible not to offend/disappoint somebody in some way on these issues. For me, I just want to see a worthy performance, and I've no doubt Tilda will deliver.

 

[BarryAllen]

It does take away from an Asian role though. Besides Wong, who doesn't seem to have much of a role in this one til the next one I would say there doesn't seem to be many Asian roles in this and the idea that an Asian role is being played by a white woman is understandably ruffling a few feathers.

Plus, I wonder where all those people who said that iron fist has to be white because he's white in the comics are on this issue? They went ballistic over iron fist but they're nowhere on this

On that same issue, it's the same people who went ballistic about Iron Fist being asian only complaining about the Tilda Swinton whitewashing after the trailer came out. When the casting was first announced, that same crowd was like "That's Tilda Swinton, and you have to use her!" and were so accepting of it.

The problem is even if they did, and made a great character, they would still have received criticism.

It's criticism like you said yourself in the first page that lead to the change:



They couldn't really win this situation.

Damn, straight exposing the hypocrisy!

 

[marieylee]

If it's a re-imagined character, don't put a bald cap on her and dress her up as a monk that could pass for an old Asian male. Also why cast Wong as Asian then if they were so afraid of the criticism. Will Amadeus Cho not be Asian because he's a stereotypical Asian nerd?

That's like say if there was some stereotypical black character in Black Panther or Luke Cage, and you cast a white actress and claim it's a re-imagined character but make her have an afro/dreads and in African inspired clothing.

 

[Yellow Cyclone]

wong being asian is just at the end a guy who happens to be asian

wise old asian ancient master who lives on the top of mountains in tibet is borderline as they said. i would've been fine with an old asian guy but swinton brings a dynamic that will be great, she plays male characters very well and is somewhat a calling card for her, that would be the bigger story to me than the race-change

but as stated, marvel was in a rock and hard place, so people would be mad no matter what

maybe they'll address it by saying the ancient one can take many forms, what you see isn't necessarily your reality, blah blah, etc. either way she's one of the 2 best actresses on the planet

 

[MichaelChen]

The problem with avoiding Asian stereotypes in comicbook movies is, practically every character, including all the white ones, are Asian stereotypes.

Bruce Wayne is an Asian stereotype: a martial artist and scientist.

Alfred is an Asian stereotype: a wise mentor and servant.

Anthony E. Stark is an Asian stereotype: a science nerd who builds robots.

Bruce Banner is an Asian stereotype: a nerd who turns into an angry sumo-wrestlerish character.

Kingpin is an Asian stereotype: a mysterious and secretive crimelord, a martial artist, and a sumo-wrestler.

Superhero tropes and Asian tropes are virtually identical. So if you can't have any Asian tropes, you have effectively banished the entire Asian race from superhero movies.

 

[Khonshu]

The character was created prior to our modern globalization of the internet, during a time when stereotypes were rampant in comic books, and is based on Eastern mysticism. The "Ancient One" draws from our impression of what an Oriental Magician might look like, including influences from Tibetan monks and Buddhism.

As a result, Marvel is in a no-win situation here: if they cast an Asian in the role, then they are open to criticism of perpetuating stereotypes. If they don't cast an Asian, they are accused of white-washing. If they change or don't include the character, then they are significantly altering the canon of the character Dr. Strange and we are subjected to a re-imagining of the protagonist.

No win.

Tilda Swinton is an amazing actor and will give as good a performance as the writing, direction, and editing will permit her to perform. I'm fine with this casting choice, as isolated to this film. That said, I hope that Marvel (and other studios) can create NEW content that includes NEW characters that don't draw from stereotypes to depict characterization.

 

[MichaelChen]

That said, I hope that Marvel (and other studios) can create NEW content that includes NEW characters that don't draw from stereotypes to depict characterization.

As I said, that's basically impossible in a superhero movie, as superhero tropes and Asian tropes are virtually identical.

 

[Silvermoon]

One of the screenwriters indicated during a podcast that the casting of The Ancient One was basically their "Kobayashi Maru" scenario, that it was going to be a "no win" situation no matter what they ended up doing and it ended up being a question of which way they were willing to lose. He does also mention what some of us have heard, that the political situation between China and Tibet was among the problems considered (not the sole problem, but it was at least among them)

http://mcuexchange.com/screenwriter...ange-to-be-different-from-other-marvel-films/

In regards Tilda Swinton being cast as The Ancient One, Carghill says that there was no way to win on the casting. One reason behind the decision regarding the change in The Ancient One for the film was to be able to market the movie to China, which could ban the film with certain depictions of the political situation in Tibet. He also went on to say that every depiction of the race that they considered risked angering part of the audience.

We can’t, there’s no real way to win this, so let’s use this as an opportunity to cast an amazing actress in a male role.

Carghill also noted that the Ancient One is a character that has a very ugly history, some of which wouldn’t be accepted if the character were being created today. Keeping something true to that story, but acceptable today, was a losing battle.

Original podcast source (note: there is uncensored swearing): https://soundcloud.com/kcoolman/the-sunday-service-4-17-16 discussion about The Ancient One starts at about the 2:15:19 mark

 

[Loki882]

Again I don't really buy that it's an either/or type of deal. Either it's an offensive Asian stereotype, or cast a White person. There's A LOT of wiggle room in-between those two. Also they kind of shot themselves in the foot with her look. It's kind of hard to take the whole "we're trying to avoid Asian stereotypes" if you then have her shave her head, have her be in a temple/monastery, and have her dress like a stereotypical Asian monk/martial arts master, oh and she's in Asia to boot. You're kind of undermining your own premise there. All of the Asian aesthetics are there (I expected them to be more creative with her look honestly), she's just not Asian.

 

[Pokkle]

Again I don't really buy that it's an either/or type of deal. Either it's an offensive Asian stereotype, or cast a White person. There's A LOT of wiggle room in-between those two. Also they kind of shot themselves in the foot with her look. It's kind of hard to take the whole "we're trying to avoid Asian stereotypes" if you then have her shave her head, have her be in a temple/monastery, and have her dress like a stereotypical Asian monk/martial arts master, oh and she's in Asia to boot. You're kind of undermining your own premise there. All of the Asian aesthetics are there (I expected them to be more creative with her look honestly), she's just not Asian.

Being bald is for the androgynous look though.

 

[Endeavor]

http://mcuexchange.com/screenwriter...ange-to-be-different-from-other-marvel-films/

So instead of risking angering the a-hole communist dictators, they opted to disappoint the fans.
Not a good call from Marvel in my opinion.
I'm sure they could have reworked the character to stay asian and still be acceptable to those political-propaganda-loving morons.
Have him in one brief scene talking about his birthplace being somewhere near Beijing, or something like that. Simple.

 

[Endeavor]

I wonder what they consider in the Ancient One's origin as being "very ugly history"?

 

[Sony23]

So instead of risking angering the a-hole communist dictators, they opted to disappoint the fans.
Not a good call from Marvel in my opinion.
I'm sure they could have reworked the character to stay asian and still be acceptable to those political-propaganda-loving morons.
Have him in one brief scene talking about his birthplace being somewhere near Beijing, or something like that. Simple.

They couldn't do that. He addresses that in the podcast..In fact having his birthplace in Beijing is at the core of the issue. He brings up Michelle Yeoh. Casting a chinese woman as a Tibetan character IS the political issue that would offend Tibetans.

http://mcuexchange.com/screenwriter...ange-to-be-different-from-other-marvel-films/

Original podcast source (note: there is uncensored swearing): https://soundcloud.com/kcoolman/the-sunday-service-4-17-16 discussion about The Ancient One starts at about the 2:15:19 mark

Yeah I heard that. It was the interview he did with DoubleToasted (Korey Coleman and Martin Thomas formerly of Spill and Cargill's former cast members). He at least acknowledges the difficulty and issues surrounding the Ancient One. I'm the last person that would support Whitewashing (won't watch Gods of Egypt, or Exodus) for the same reason. This is just a political minefield that Marvel had to find a solution for.

 

[SuperAl]

So instead of risking angering the a-hole communist dictators, they opted to disappoint the fans.
Not a good call from Marvel in my opinion.
I'm sure they could have reworked the character to stay asian and still be acceptable to those political-propaganda-loving morons.
Have him in one brief scene talking about his birthplace being somewhere near Beijing, or something like that. Simple.

Yeah, sounds like a cop out. At least cast someone other than a white person. Any other race wouldve allowed them to avoid the "white washing" criticisms.

 

[Incredible Hans]

And it get's even worse... in "Jessica Jones" they took a white guy to play a purple man...

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

So instead of risking angering the a-hole communist dictators, they opted to disappoint the fans.
Not a good call from Marvel in my opinion.
I'm sure they could have reworked the character to stay asian and still be acceptable to those political-propaganda-loving morons.
Have him in one brief scene talking about his birthplace being somewhere near Beijing, or something like that. Simple.

'a-hole communist dictators'... I do wonder who the 'political-propaganda-loving morons' really are...

 

[Incredible Hans]

Yeah, sounds like a cop out. At least cast someone other than a white person. Any other race wouldve allowed them to avoid the "white washing" criticisms.

... which on the other hand proves that the accustations of "white washing" didn't make much sense in the first place.

 

[Bren]

I'm sure some people will be outraged but I don't really care for Tilda Swinton anyway *gasp shock*.
Certainly I would have preferred whoever they chose to be made to look ancient, but hey.

Won't hide it though; along with Suicide Squad my most anticipated film of 2016 now!

 

[Incredible Hans]

For me, Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One is similar to Michael Clarke Duncan as the Kingpin.

I would've preferred a white Kingpin, but when the Daredevil film finally came out, I thought Duncan was good.

I would prefer an Asian male as Ancient One, but probably Tilda Swinton will be good.

In other words, I wouldn't have done it this way, but it doesn't give me a headache either.

 

[TheVision]

Tilda's character isnt Asian but that doesnt mean there hasnt been any Asian Ancient Ones in the past. Shes just one of many.

If they had made it Asian it wouldve been another typical "Wise old Asian master" anyway. Theres been 100s of them in movies over the years.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Tilda's character isnt Asian but that doesnt mean there hasnt been any Asian Ancient Ones in the past. Shes just one of many.

If they had made it Asian it wouldve been another typical "Wise old Asian master" anyway. Theres been 100s of them in movies over the years.

I agree.

But then again, it "Wise old Asian master" is only a variant of the "Wise old master/teacher" trope, like Obi-Wan, Yoda, Dumbledore, Merlin, Mr. Miyagi, Stick, Agatha Harkness...

This one just happens to be Asian.t:

So, even if the Ancient One wasn't Asian in the comics but, let's say, a celtic druid, an Afrian Shaman or an alien sorceror, he would still be a stereotype.