Tilda Swinton Cast as The Ancient One

[Henshin]

Yeah because they're taking a prominent/important role away from an Asian actor (when there are so few opportunities for them in these types of films to begin with) and giving it to a White person.

And that's the difference between this an Mordo. You make a White character black and, there are still thousands of White comic characters out there. You make a minority one White, well there aren't nearly as many non-White characters to begin with, so it has more of an effect.

And again, they then shot themselves in the foot by essentially making her look like a "stereotypical" Asian monk/martial arts master anyway. Robes, shaved head, living in a temple/monastery, etc it's all there. They just made her White. This contradiction is pretty much the worst way that they could have gone with imo.

And the whole "oh they should cast based on talent" sounds like an excuse to me. Guess what, there are likely some really talented Chinese actresses out there that they could have cast.

And finally, when you have a movie that seems like it's spending a lot of time in Asia, has a lot of Asian philosophy/mysticism/aesthetics/etc, and is keeping a big chunk of Strange's traditional origin story seemingly, but the only main cast member who seems to be Asian is the freaking manservant, that's a problem for many people. And they're not wrong for thinking that, because it does stick out.

I agree, the aesthetics aspect is the worst thing. If a character is changed it should look completely different to the stereotype they're trying to avoid.
Most people wouldn't have cared if she'd just looked like how she did as an ancient vampire in Only Lovers Left Alive. (Look at Edge of Tomorrow, based on a Japanese story but nobody cared)

Another problem though is if it ends up like the comics and The Ancient One is killed off to further Strange's character development, that wouldn't have been a good role for an Asian person either.

 

[Incredible Hans]

I just asked myself if Marvel could've avoided some of the criticism by saying: "Tilda Swinton's character is an amalgam of Agatha Harkness and the Ancient One."

 

[Endeavor]

I just asked myself if Marvel could've avoided some of the criticism by saying: "Tilda Swinton's character is an amalgam of Agatha Harkness and the Ancient One."

That's a very good idea. But I think until the F4 rights are officially back at Marvel, Agatha may be tied up with them.

 

[TheVision]

Tildas character is one of many Ancient Ones and she is Celtic in heritage. MCU is an adaptation of the comics just like IM3 and The Mandarin. I think they made the right choice.

 

[Logan0327]

Yeah because they're taking a prominent/important role away from an Asian actor (when there are so few opportunities for them in these types of films to begin with) and giving it to a White person.

And that's the difference between this an Mordo. You make a White character black and, there are still thousands of White comic characters out there. You make a minority one White, well there aren't nearly as many non-White characters to begin with, so it has more of an effect.

And again, they then shot themselves in the foot by essentially making her look like a "stereotypical" Asian monk/martial arts master anyway. Robes, shaved head, living in a temple/monastery, etc it's all there. They just made her White. This contradiction is pretty much the worst way that they could have gone with imo.

And the whole "oh they should cast based on talent" sounds like an excuse to me. Guess what, there are likely some really talented Chinese actresses out there that they could have cast.

And finally, when you have a movie that seems like it's spending a lot of time in Asia, has a lot of Asian philosophy/mysticism/aesthetics/etc, and is keeping a big chunk of Strange's traditional origin story seemingly, but the only main cast member who seems to be Asian is the freaking manservant, that's a problem for many people. And they're not wrong for thinking that, because it does stick out.

i agree 100% and it is not all Doctor strange's fault it is just the latest to put salt in the big wound that has been in our face for years

 

[TheVision]

Tildas not playing an Asian.

Theres a difference between a white person playing an Indian or Asian and Dr Stranges set up. Also dont forget about Wong, who is Asian in the film.

 

[Logan0327]

still marvel has had plenty of reasons to be diverse and chooses not to

doctor strange didn't need to be white
ironfist didn't need to be white
spiderman could of been miles morales
ancient one could of been asian like the comics

and they are doing Carol Danvers for Captain Marvel even tho Kamala Khan has sold really well in comic book sales and very popular with cultural impact among muslims and could of been first middle eastern super hero character

 

[☆OldGrey-Man☆]

Ok. Fair point. They wanted to not hurt their chances of the Chinese government flagging them as inappropriate and looking for some excuse to ban the film, while at the same time not insult the Tibetan audience.
Stay neutral... Cool.
So how about you instead make the character Thai... Vietnamese... Cambodian... Korean? Or don't even mention the nationality at all.

The point is, there must have been other, inventive ways to get around the sensorship while still allowing the chance for an asian actor to take the role.

I dont like the pov of just put any Asain in and it would be acceptable.

Too me thats almost like saying theyre all alike so any will do (not saying that is what you're saying )

And if you were to use any of those then a white female is just as valid.

I have no complaints with how marvel chose to role, theyre reasons are valid whether financially or politically motivated.

And if they had of went a different way they should have went an Indian Ancient One residing in the Indian himalyas. Too many people have east asain blinkers on in this debate which annoys me to no end.

 

[Mike Murdock]

still marvel has had plenty of reasons to be diverse and chooses not to

doctor strange didn't need to be white
ironfist didn't need to be white
spiderman could of been miles morales
ancient one could of been asian like the comics

Baron Mordo could have been white like in the comics?

 

[Typhoon22]

still marvel has had plenty of reasons to be diverse and chooses not to

doctor strange didn't need to be white
ironfist didn't need to be white
spiderman could of been miles morales
ancient one could of been asian like the comics

and they are doing Carol Danvers for Captain Marvel even tho Kamala Khan has sold really well in comic book sales and very popular with cultural impact among muslims and could of been first middle eastern super hero character

You're one of those people aren't you.

 

[Monochron]

I dont like the pov of just put any Asain in and it would be acceptable.

Too me thats almost like saying theyre all alike so any will do (not saying that is what you're saying )

And if you were to use any of those then a white female is just as valid.

I have no complaints with how marvel chose to role, theyre reasons are valid whether financially or politically motivated.

And if they had of went a different way they should have went an Indian Ancient One residing in the Indian himalyas. Too many people have east asain blinkers on in this debate which annoys me to no end.

Why is that any different than an Australian actor like Hugh Jackman playing a Canadian character?

 

[Endeavor]

Why is that any different than an Australian actor like Hugh Jackman playing a Canadian character?

It's not, it's exactly the same thing.
But OldGrey just said it's not his preference and that's okay. Probably because it'll help perpetuate the thought that all members of a perceived minority are the same...

Like I had mentioned in an earlier comment, for me this is an issue about giving a minority actor the chance to shine in an industry where those options aren't very numerous.

But, that ship has sailed on this particular case.
No point to continue beating a dead horse.

 

[Monochron]

It's not, it's exactly the same thing.
But OldGrey just said it's not his preference and that's okay. Probably because it'll help perpetuate the thought that all members of a perceived minority are the same...

Like I had mentioned in an earlier comment, for me this is an issue about giving a minority actor the chance to shine in an industry where those options aren't very numerous.

But, that ship has sailed on this particular case.
No point to continue beating a dead horse.

Yes that's my stance as well .

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'm baffled as to why this is an issue. It seems that no one who is complaining about this realizes what a political and international cluster**** it would be to cast an Asian in this role.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/world/asia/china-doctor-strange-tibet.html

“The Ancient One was a racist stereotype who comes from a region of the world that is in a very weird political place. He originates from Tibet, so if you acknowledge that Tibet is a place and that he’s Tibetan, you risk alienating one billion people.”

Mr. Cargill said some critics had suggested the filmmakers could have cast Michelle Yeoh as the Ancient One. Ms. Yeoh is an ethnic Chinese actress from Malaysia who is a martial arts icon and starred in “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.”

“If you are telling me you think it’s a good idea to cast a Chinese actress as a Tibetan character, you are out of your damn fool mind,” Mr. Cargill said.

Mr. Cargill also drew a parallel, saying that the only thornier situation he could envision was if Dr. Strange’s origin story had involved him going to Palestine in the 1930s and studying under a Palestinian mentor.

Mr. Cargill said Mr. Derrickson, the director, hoped that changing the gender would help offset bad choices that had to be made.

Mr. Derrickson, he said, reasoned that “there’s no real way to win this, so let’s use this as an opportunity to cast an amazing actress in a male role.”

 

[Monochron]

Someone already wrote a rebuttal to what Cargill said on the matter.

I can't link to it because it has coursing in it but the title is "‘Doctor Strange’ co-writer unintentionally provides further evidence of deep-seated Hollywood racism" if you want to google it.

 

[Blade X]

FYI, in the original Lee/Ditko Dr. Strange origin story, the Ancient One was living in the mountains of India, not Tibet. So it was never stated or implied in the original origin story that he was Tibetan. So the Ancient One could be either Chinese,Japanese,Tibetan ,or (most likely) Indian. Which just makes Marvel/Disney reasons for the race bending even more asinine and a load of BS. Here's a link to the panels from the original origin story.

http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/im...atch-as-doctor-strange-is-glorious-695900.jpg

 

[Monochron]

Interesting observation made by writer Kurt Busiek about Doctor Strange:

https://culturewarreporters.com/2016/03/04/for-your-consideration-asian-doctor-strange-kurt-busiek/

 

[Blade X]

Yeah because they're taking a prominent/important role away from an Asian actor (when there are so few opportunities for them in these types of films to begin with) and giving it to a White person.

And that's the difference between this an Mordo. You make a White character black and, there are still thousands of White comic characters out there. You make a minority one White, well there aren't nearly as many non-White characters to begin with, so it has more of an effect.

And again, they then shot themselves in the foot by essentially making her look like a "stereotypical" Asian monk/martial arts master anyway. Robes, shaved head, living in a temple/monastery, etc it's all there. They just made her White. This contradiction is pretty much the worst way that they could have gone with imo.

And the whole "oh they should cast based on talent" sounds like an excuse to me. Guess what, there are likely some really talented Chinese actresses out there that they could have cast.

And finally, when you have a movie that seems like it's spending a lot of time in Asia, has a lot of Asian philosophy/mysticism/aesthetics/etc, and is keeping a big chunk of Strange's traditional origin story seemingly, but the only main cast member who seems to be Asian is the freaking manservant, that's a problem for many people. And they're not wrong for thinking that, because it does stick out.

Quoted for the sad truth.

 

[Kane52630]

Guess what, there are likely some really talented Chinese actresses out there that they could have cast.

Chinese does not equal Tibetan though... You might as well have said an Israeli is the same as a Palestinian.

 

[Monochron]

Chinese does not equal Tibetan though... You might as well have said an Israeli is the same as a Palestinian.

Well going by the link posted by Blade X the Ancient One lived in India so we've got to wonder why Marvel would change it to Tibet.

Also I encourage you to look for and read the rebuttal to what Cargill said on the subject by Shaun | No, Totally!
@NoTotally

 

[fixxxer]

I'm baffled as to why this is an issue. It seems that no one who is complaining about this realizes what a political and international cluster**** it would be to cast an Asian in this role.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/world/asia/china-doctor-strange-tibet.html

The only thing that was baffling was Cargill's bizarre justifications. If there was a mandate not to use Tibetian characters and thus not incur China's mighty wrath, there was absolutely no reason to.

The Himalayas primarily stretch across India, Nepal and Bhutan. Much more so than Tibet. TAO could just as easily have been identified as Indian, Nepalese or Bhutanese... if he/she even needed to be identified as such. They could've cast Amitabh Flippin' Bachchan for crying out loud and there wouldn't have been a dissenting peep! Or does China like to pretend that those countries don't exist either? (Hmm, maybe I am a fictional character after all! )

While I would've personally preferred TAO to be portrayed as an older Asian/Indian man, I have no problem per se with Swinton getting the call since she is a tremendous actress, but Cargill's ridiculously clumsy justification is utterly and completely farcical.

Look, like I said earlier, I am on board with Swinton's casting... though, with some reservations. But there does seem to be a double standard, some ignorance and some insensitivity at play here.

Almost every black character from Marvel (think Falcon, Luke Cage, etc.) came on to the scene as some kind of racial stereotype or the other. Was the response just not to adapt those characters? Or have them played by white women? Of course not! That would be silly, right? Then, why not just fix the character when it comes to offensively portrayed Asian characters from the comics instead of completely exorcising them from the medium itself? Is an elderly Asian man inherently stereotypical? Of course not. Is an elderly Asian man who dabbles in mysticism inherently stereotypical? Again, absolutely not.

 

[Mike5575]

You guys do realize that The Ancient One will most likely die by the end of this movie, right? I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[fixxxer]

^

Oh, I see. No big deal, then. Carry on, nothing to see here.

 

[Mike5575]

still marvel has had plenty of reasons to be diverse and chooses not to

doctor strange didn't need to be white
ironfist didn't need to be white
spiderman could of been miles morales
ancient one could of been asian like the comics

and they are doing Carol Danvers for Captain Marvel even tho Kamala Khan has sold really well in comic book sales and very popular with cultural impact among muslims and could of been first middle eastern super hero character

While Marvel could change the race of any character, there is absolutely no reason why they MUST do so.

Who cares about Miles Morales when you could have Peter Parker?

Kamala Kahn? I don't even think she was even a thing back when Marvel decided to make a Captain Marvel movie. She just hasn't been around that long. Some folks need to calm down about Kamala. Give it another 5-10 years and she'll get her movie. The Inhumans need to come first.

 

[Mike5575]

Tilda Swinton was awesome in Snowpiercer. That was until Captain America killed her.

[YT]watch?v=mG6QHeA1IwM[/YT]