Timely or Quality?

PWN3R RANGER said:
I like my books on time, but I HATE fill in artists. Sorry.

Thats like if Marvel got a fill in for Ultimates, even though the book is beyond late, I don't care, I love Hitch's art.

Same with Civil War, yes delays suck, but fill-in artists suck even more.:(

I totally agree.

It's like Morrison's X-Men run. Things were going along nicely until Frank Quietly got behind. The they started having fill-ins by Jiminez (which wasn't that bad) and Igor Kordey (which I thought was awful). Then Kordey fell behind for whatever reasons and started rushing issues and it just got worse.

Ultimates Vol. 1 cured me of any complaining I might want to do over delays anyway.
 
The_Raven said:
Ultimates Vol. 1 cured me of any complaining I might want to do over delays anyway.

This is the kind of complacency I worry about though. All-Star Batman is another offender. Why have a deadline if they don't mean anything?
 
Doc Destruction said:
This is the kind of complacency I worry about though. All-Star Batman is another offender. Why have a deadline if they don't mean anything?


Its not complacency. Its waiting for quality, and as Ultimates and ASB dont affect anything else, its not a huge big deal waiting for the book to come out. Highly unprofessional and worth getting angry over, but the only real offender of being late and ****ing everything over is Civil War.
 
Doc Destruction I'm sick of your name-calling. I just hada read another reply to one of my posts where you called me a cry-baby, then I told you to shut up with your comments -- so you started moaning about it. jeez, man. Hypocrisy.

It was a serious question. This is an obvious reference to delayed Civil War. You much preferred IC and its fill-in artists. You have a convo on this like EVERY DAY, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what you mean by it. Jeez, lighten up.

Did you used to prefer marvel? Or have you always leant towards DC? And if your problem with my question is that you don't think you lean towards DC then thats just craaaaaaazy. Cos, um, you do. If anything, I'm giving you more of a chance to put your opinion across to me.
 
Doc Destruction said:
This is the kind of complacency I worry about though. All-Star Batman is another offender. Why have a deadline if they don't mean anything?

I see your point, and I think you're right to a degree...all I'm saying if it comes down to a book I really like being late vs. throwing a sub-par or even bad artist on it then I'll take the delay. Even if it doesn't ship on time, I'll still be able to enjoy it when it does arrive.

I think most of the fault is on Marvel/DC themselves and how they solicit books. With guys like Hitch, they should make sure they have enough issues in the can before sending out the first issue. Or, simply solicit it as a bi-monthly or whatever it takes. Marvel didn't learn their lesson with Ultimates 1, and now as we all know, vol. 2 has suffered it's own delays as well.
 
Cyclops said:
Sigh.... both are not mutually exclusive. This would not be a problem if they had a certain amount of issues completed before one was even published.

For example, if you have a six-issue arc, have every single issue completely finished before the first part comes out. And while issue one is still on the stands, start producing the next arc.

It ain't that hard, people. You're professionals, so start acting like 'em!

Thats a very good idea except the trouble is when you over-prepare everything you run the risk of being unresponsive to your market. I have no doubt in my mind DC would be leading the market right now if Marvel hadn't reacted quickly to create Civil War. What's more we'd probs be moaning about how stale they are.

I'd recommend they do it with the core titles but these seem to be rarely late (or maybe its just me). All the (cumulative) time I've collected ASM this is the first time I've heard of it being delayed... and its not even that book's fault.
 
Yeah there is no excuse for Civil War. It is a huge event, the industry really needs the sales boost, plus it delays all the main tie-ins.

Really unprofessional.:(
 
PWN3R RANGER said:
Yeah there is no excuse for Civil War. It is a huge event, the industry really needs the sales boost, plus it delays all the main tie-ins.

Really unprofessional.:(


Highly.
 
The poll revolved out of a conversation just like that, yes. However, i was genuine in my interest to see if I was in the minority or not overall, so I started the poll. The two are different discussions entirely.

I would HATE a fill in artist for Justice. However, Ross knows he can't do a monthly book, so it's bi-monthly. I can live with that. If the book is LATE however, damn right I'll be grumpy about it. The reason CW is such a bad offender is the number of books involved in the delay.

Now...I am a card carrying Marvel junkie. Come to my house and take a gander at my collection if you like. Starting a little bit into Joey Q's reign, a large number of events have happened to all the flagship titles that I am not a fan of. ESPECIALLY, Spider-Man, my childhood hero. See, Joey wants the talent to run the show, and they are. In the beginning, it was brutal. No one was communicating whatsoever. NYC was DESTROYED in the X-Men books, and none of the other books never even flinched?

So, I'm a comic book fan, and my titles are all waning...what the hell, I'll try some of these! So, I start reading DC, who is currently going through a rebirth, and their flagship titles (minus 1 or 2) are all REALLY GOOD. Plus Identity Crisis really wrapped me up. So, I was hooked.

But, it's like when your ex-GF dumps your ass and you have this new girl around. You still look over at your Ex and think "damn, wtf happened? She was SO GOOD!"

Do I still read Marvel titles? Yep! Do I love them? Yep! Recently, the X-titles have gotten their footing, and they are really really good. I am ANXIOUSLY awaiting the rest to catch up. Seriously!

I don't like Civil War. I feel it's forced, heavy handed and a lot of bad characterization is going on. Will I NEVER read another Marvel flagship book again? That's a silly question. If the quality pops back up, you're damn right I will.

I call them like I see them. Both sides of the fence. DC just does more "right" for ME, right now. That's all.

Hope that ranting all makes sense.

Now, back to the poll...seems I'm in the minority so far. That's totally cool, I was seriously interested if that was the case, nothing more or less.
 
Quality is the thing that really matters. I won't be angry if a book is delayed as long as it lives up to my expectations.
 
My vote's for timeliness. Ideally, artists who couldn't meet a deadline would either shape up, have other arrangements made (i.e. not being placed on monthlies), or get booted the hell out of the industry because they can't hack it. Fill-ins are fine by me because, frankly, most of the stories people are saying are masterworks that need their regular artists are being highly overestimated, in my opinion. There are exceptions where I'd agree, the creative team's stability is absolutely necessary, but The Ultimates? Please. A fill-in artist wouldn't have hurt the quality of the book, just Hitch and Millar's egos and Marvel's corporate wallet.
 
Marvel has suffered with its quality,i would not mind waiting for a comic that is worth buying.But back in the day,you would get quality without delay.But not these days...
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
My vote's for timeliness. Ideally, artists who couldn't meet a deadline would either shape up, have other arrangements made (i.e. not being placed on monthlies), or get booted the hell out of the industry because they can't hack it. Fill-ins are fine by me because, frankly, most of the stories people are saying are masterworks that need their regular artists are being highly overestimated, in my opinion. There are exceptions where I'd agree, the creative team's stability is absolutely necessary, but The Ultimates? Please. A fill-in artist wouldn't have hurt the quality of the book, just Hitch and Millar's egos and Marvel's corporate wallet.


Hitch: Go lose your virginity.
 
Cyclops said:
Sigh.... both are not mutually exclusive. This would not be a problem if they had a certain amount of issues completed before one was even published.

For example, if you have a six-issue arc, have every single issue completely finished before the first part comes out. And while issue one is still on the stands, start producing the next arc.

It ain't that hard, people. You're professionals, so start acting like 'em!

sounds like a no-brainer....and yet...*sigh*
 
Well since we are getting neither in most cases, I don't even see the point of this.
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
My vote's for timeliness. Ideally, artists who couldn't meet a deadline would either shape up, have other arrangements made (i.e. not being placed on monthlies), or get booted the hell out of the industry because they can't hack it. Fill-ins are fine by me because, frankly, most of the stories people are saying are masterworks that need their regular artists are being highly overestimated, in my opinion. There are exceptions where I'd agree, the creative team's stability is absolutely necessary, but The Ultimates? Please. A fill-in artist wouldn't have hurt the quality of the book, just Hitch and Millar's egos and Marvel's corporate wallet.
Nocenti always had the best strategy for my money. If Romita Jr was abscent that month they wrote an out of continuity story and used a "guest artist". That way the ongoing kept it's consistency without actually losing a month. The OoC stories were reflective of the current book (i.e. same characters, some older plotlines referenced) but they would not necessarily chronologically follow. That way at least we got something, and when the issues were finally all said and done you could go back and re read a story without interchanging artists. During Inferno (a major crossover) this happened and a story called "Baby Boom" was inserted between parts 2 and 3 of Inferno X-over. The story was not great, but it was something, and when the final issue of Inferno debut (after the X-Men had concluded their arc with it) it followed the timeline of the crossover and had the same art. Of course now all you have to do when reading the saga in full is remove the OoC issue from the collection and read straight on through.
 
Ideally, the question of "Timely vs. Quality" is one in which you have to select from two extreme choices when in reality you would expect to get a mix of both. This is much like when political figures, liberal or conservative, ask one to chose between "liberty or security". You should have both, and if times have come to the point where you have to choose one, then these are dark times indeed.

My magic answer on the topic is, "It depends". By that I mean, for some comic books, that SPECIFIC creative team is the main draw, and without it, it would seem almost pointless to publish the issue. One example is ASTONISHING X-MEN, where Cassaday's art is at least as big a draw as Whedon's scripts, or JUSTICE, where Ross' art is pretty much the main attraction. Fill-in stuff from another in these cases will not do. The audience will feel miffed and the book won't be the same.

However, for titles where the artist is NOT the main draw, but the character, title, or event is, then I feel the artist may not be as critically important. When a company has hyped an event for months, and almost literally every book they publish in continuity ties into said event, then you can say that the writer and the event itself are what sells; a nice artist is spiffy, but it won't make or brake the book unless you all but go out of your way to find an inappropriate fill-in artist.

Quite frankly, it boggles my mind that neither Marvel or DC seem ready to confront scheduling hassles serious, rather than with a collective shrug. If times and technology and technique have changed to the point that a monthly artist cannot be expected, on average, to turn in 12 issues on time, then plan the "fill in" art in advance. Attach 2 or even 3 artists to the book ahead of time, so that when one gets swamped, the other is waiting in the wings. RUNAWAYS seems to do this, as Alphona usually needs a 2-3 month rest after about 9 or so issues, before churning out the regular work again. Mark Bagley seems to have an uncanny ability to not only pencil 12 issues a year, but some 18, albeit some issues DO look "rushed". Is it because his style isn't as full of photoshop trickery and more akin to the 90's pinnacle, of which he is a part of?

Another part of it is that fans have got to give fill-in teams a fair brake. I remember when DiVito did two fill-in issues of YOUNG AVENGERS, some fans went hog wild. Yes, he's a shift from the main artist, but his art was still perfectly good and effective for the title, and both of his issues shipped on time. Going by the assumption that all fill-in's, by nature are terrible in every situation is inaccurate, extreme, and self-defeating.

Take ULTIMATE X-MEN. Obviously it is the title and the writer that sells that series at whatever time, as it has had an endless parade of artists. The artist usually changes about once every arc and during it's 30+ issue launch by Millar, we had fill-in art mid-storyline, and a lot of it wasn't good. However, some was; Finch's first art on that title was a fill-in issue towards the end of Millar's run, and then he'd return to do a year stint with Bendis. I could list a half dozen artists that have worked on that book, and that'd only be for about half of the series' run.

Something like ULTIMATES 2, where Hitch's photo-realistic art is about the same draw as Millar's "OOOoo, lookit me, I'm an Extremist Liberal Action Movie writer!" stylings, then a fill-in artist would almost be sales suicide. So I can understand just sitting on one's hands and waiting for Hitch's almighty 2 issues a year. Of course, Ultimates 3 is going to have Mr. Manga himself, Joe Mad, come along, which has to be all kinds of jarring if you think about it. Obviously there wasn't much effort to get a second artist whose style at least APED Hitch's (for my money, I think Duncan Fegredo could have done alright), which is actually rather telling because that means that sort of style wasn't as essential to the editorial board, hence why they got an artist whose style is all but a 180. It's like going from Maleev to Miyazawa.
 
Keep the quality up, delay the book if need be. And not just because it saves me money.;)
 
gildea said:
Quality within reason.

For instance there is no justification for Kevin Smith level lateness.

Some artists are simply irreplacable on a series.

If the Ultimates or Justice had a fill in I would spit hairs.
Agreed.

I also agree with whoever brought up Kordey on New X-Men. That was just...pure disaster. Some of the best X-Men stories ever written made utterly unreadable by a shtty fill-in artist.

On the other hand...yes, for a situation like Civil War, a delay like that was pretty inexcusable, and everyone has pretty clearly already explained why.

It really does have to depend on the situation. Like Dread pointed out, some fill-in art for some of the middle of Young Avengers was imo 100% just fine and didn't hurt the quality of the books at all. But then, other times you draw the short straw and end up with some of the shoddiest fill-ins ever; the last two issues of Blue Beetle have completely lost me, and I'm not so sure it was all due to the plot.
 
Quality, quality, quality.

Always quality over quantity, or timely in this case.

I'd rather have the damn book done right than some scrub artist come in and make things look like crap.

Sometimes things go on for a bit too long and sometimes it's not that bad. The worst thing that happens is that I have an excuse to sit back and relax and reread the previous issues to catch myself up, which I like doing when books aren't late anyways.

All Star Batman is getting a little ridiculous though. I'm also one of the only people around here who LIKES the story, though people who dislike the story complain about the lateness more than I do...go figure, huh?
 
BrianWilly said:
On the other hand...yes, for a situation like Civil War, a delay like that was pretty inexcusable, and everyone has pretty clearly already explained why.

It only got delayed a month. People are acting like McNiven stole food off your table or something.
 
SpideyInATree said:
It only got delayed a month. People are acting like McNiven stole food off your table or something.


Its no secret: Fanboys overreact.


And im a fanboy.
 
And because of its delay, half a dozen other titles get pushed back. The issue after that, incidentally, isn't "only" delayed for a month but is now delayed for two. All this is happening during a pivotal point of the plot that is losing steam per every single moment the issue is pushed back.

And the worst part is, Marvel is not only not copping to its mistake but adopting a laissez-faire "oh well, they're going to buy it anyway" and "why is everyone complaining? Go out and get laid" attitude.
 
Darthphere said:
Its no secret: Fanboys overreact.

Heh. That's an understatement. I can understand being a little tiffed about it but, damn, people get more mad over their comics than, you know, real world activities.
 

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