To Believe or Not To Believe? (SHOW RESPECT, OR RISK A BAN) - Part 2

[BatmanVSuperman]

So God speaks through everyday actions and discussions? Do you kinda have to interpret the messages or do you know when it's happening? No disrespect, just genuinely interested.

My theory would be that a person who has this faith, is likely to feel more or read more into a situation than somebody with a different level of faith would. There is something to be said about chemistry of the brain which changes on response levels. For example, when you are conscious of being in a sketchy environment there is a feeling of someone being there when they actually aren't. This is different, but just to give an idea of a feeling created from a psychological response.

Religious people who really feel there is a God or Satan for that matter, may feel something different in a situation.

Say they were going to go into a building, but changed their mind. The person that did go into that building fell through the floor and died. To believers, this strange feeling was God speaking to them. To a non believer they would feel that they saw something in a natural world sense. To an atheist, they would say "If God existed, he wouldn't have let that other person walk inside to die..." Also to a naturalist, they feel that cues from maybe conditioning outside view of the building gave them a psychological response to reading possible danger, so they avoided entering it.

 

[Shikamaru]

ShadowBoxer, what you just said is what people of every faith say to justify their belief when compared with other beliefs.

I do believe you're sincere, but the human mind is extremely susceptible to illusion. The fact you personally "feel" God, even if true, would still not count as evidence or as something that can't be explained through the science of human psychology.

 

[Greens]

ShadowBoxer, what you just said is what people of every faith say to justify their belief when compared with other beliefs.

I do believe you're sincere, but the human mind is extremely susceptible to illusion. The fact you personally "feel" God, even if true, would still not count as evidence or something that can't be explained by human psychology.

I agree with this, but there's another problem.

How can I open myself up to God if I don't believe in him? It is literally impossible for me to believe in God. My mind won't allow it, just like your mind won't allow you to deny God's existence. It's possible for theists to become atheists and for atheists to become theists, but the mind needs to be persuaded.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

ShadowBoxer, what you just said is what people of every faith say to justify their belief when compared with other beliefs.

I do believe you're sincere, but the human mind is extremely susceptible to illusion. The fact you personally "feel" God, even if true, would still not count as evidence or as something that can't be explained through the science of human psychology.

It's also interesting to note that between those who are experts in science, those that are in the field of biology have the highest level of NON belief in there being an almighty God. The idea of a God that can influence or intervene in a mystical way is only within 7% of the top scientists considered experts in their fields. In other words, from those of the highest education levels of the natural world - over 90% have reached conclusions that a God of such kind would be more than unlikely, but rather impossible.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I agree with this, but there's another problem.

How can I open myself up to God if I don't believe in him? It is literally impossible for me to believe in God. My mind won't allow it, just like your mind won't allow you to deny God's existence. It's possible for theists to become atheists and for atheists to become theists, but the mind needs to be persuaded.

You might need more dopamine Seriously in studies, those of higher religious beliefs have shown much higher levels of dopamine in their brain than non believers.

The studies of vesicular monoamine transporter 2 (VMAT2) are also quite interesting.

"Monoaminergic systems, i.e., the networks of neurons that utilize monoamine neurotransmitters, are involved in the regulation of cognitive processes such as emotion, arousal, and certain types of memory."

 

[jerkhero]

It's funny to think what it would take to change people's minds in this matter. If we had a time machine and I saw the events of the Bible myself, I would probably start to believe. I'd still remain skeptical, and had to rule out hallucinations etc. and preferably have multiple people to witness and record those events. How about religious people, would you still believe in God if you saw that for example Noah's ark or the miracles of Jesus never happened?

 

[DarkSentinel]

There is a part of my logic that questions, "How can you have a relationship with an entity that has never shown itself to you?"

If the term relationship refers to a connection where no actual verbal communication is exchanged, it contradicts just about every meaning of the word.

If you do believe in God, he would still be a metaphysical entity after all. I mean, unless you have his cell phone number

I suppose fideism applies here.

Gurl please, I got a DIRECT line upstairs.

It's called prayer son haha

 

[Apollo]

Anyone watching NBC right now?

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

It's funny to think what it would take to change people's minds in this matter. If we had a time machine and I saw the events of the Bible myself, I would probably start to believe. I'd still remain skeptical, and had to rule out hallucinations etc. and preferably have multiple people to witness and record those events. How about religious people, would you still believe in God if you saw that for example Noah's ark or the miracles of Jesus never happened?

Though much more rare now there are people of today in tribes living within the same ancient mindsets, as they are isolated from the modern world. They have little scientific understanding and find supernatural elements that those in the West would have simple explanations for.

 

[Tempest]

Happy Easter to you too!!

Also this thread isn't compete without cute bunnies and chicks.. even though Tempest likes to eat them

D'awww. And also, that picture makes me hungry.... But no, really. I want food.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Gurl please, I got a DIRECT line upstairs.

It's called prayer son haha

 

[ShadowBoxer]

So God speaks through everyday actions and discussions? Do you kinda have to interpret the messages or do you know when it's happening? No disrespect, just genuinely interested.

Yes, if you have a real relationship with God. He does speak to you through prayer. It's hard to explain but it's pretty incredible. He can also speak through other people. For example, I was praying about a situation no one else knew I was going through, not even my parents or close family and friends. Then one day on day my pastor just stoped and while preaching and starting to talking about my situation and seemed to be talking to me personally in a church full of hundreds. He spoke life and I was amazed and knew that God was using him to talk to me directly. Again, I told no one about what I was dealing with. He said God told him someone needed to hear that and continued on. Those are moments are no illusion or just a random luck encounter as the pastors sermon was on a totally different topic.

Also, even though non believers claim the bible is outdated, many christians like myself will find that it's still very much relevant to everyday life. A lot of the issues and things discussed in the bible are still happening today just in modern form. God will sometimes talk to you by giving you scriptures that just seem to stick out to you or you can't stop thinking about it etc.

 

[Apollo]

NBC has a special now on Dateline about how religious and Christian programing has made a big come back.

 

[Apollo]

D'awww. And also, that picture makes me hungry.... But no, really. I want food.

No bunnies this time!

Peep bunnies are ok though..

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Yes, if you have a real relationship with God. He does speak to you through prayer. It's hard to explain but it's pretty incredible. He can also speak through other people. For example, I was praying about a situation no one else knew I was going through, not even my parents or close family and friends. Then one day on day my pastor just stoped and while preaching and starting to talking about my situation and seemed to be talking to me personally in a church full of hundreds. He spoke life and I was amazed and knew that God was using him to talk to me directly. Again, I told no one about what I was dealing with. He said God told him someone needed to hear that and continued on. Those are moments that are no illusion or just a random luck encounter as the pastors sermon was on a totally different topic.

Yet there are topics on so many subjects that can be made part of various religious institutions, as it is common for people at some point in their life to experience situations or obstacles that have happened to many.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

NBC has a special now on Dateline about how religious and Christian programing has made a big come back.

Watching it off and on. My God Roma Downey looks amazing for 54 (maybe some plastic surgery on close ups though)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

my mother and I were watching a program on the history channel, I think it is called "the bible"?

some pretty brutal stuff, some a hole convinced everyone in the vicinity to throw rocks at this other guy who was saying jesus was still around, something like that.

 

[Apollo]

my mother and I were watching a program on the history channel, I think it is called "the bible"?

some pretty brutal stuff, some a hole convinced everyone in the vicinity to throw rocks at this other guy who was saying jesus was still around, something like that.

Yeah I was just watching that earlier too. That was Stephen who got killed. And that was Saul approving of the death.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I tuned out after 10 minutes of that special. It's more advertisement than substantive report/study. meh

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Scientists search for answers in areas that don't currently have a definitive explanation. It confuses me that some of the super religious folks actually avoid these questions, or simply insert the same answer each time to cover such a wide variety of situations: It's just faith... or it's just cause the bible says...

Simply finding a way to relate a scripture to an event does not necessarily reveal a connection and thereby an explanation for an answer.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Yet there are topics on so many subjects that can be made part of various religious institutions, as it is common for people at some point in their life to experience situations or obstacles that have happened to many.

You don't understand, he was eerily specific. And again, he was preaching on a totally different topic than what I was going through at the time. The fact that he would stop the sermon and talk about my issue specifically and it wasn't really a common issue that most people have. And that fact that he verbally mentioned that God told him someone in the service needed to hear those words. That is what a God enounter looks like. And it's one of the ways God communicates with people in relationship with him. Not I am not saying this happens every time but does happen. Also, when I see people who lived a life not believing in God and they somehow find themselves in church, either by someone inviting them or whatever and they later respond to an alter call it's something else. The people who were once lost or emotionally or physically broken living amazing lives that logical people of this world claim they would never have is absolutely phenomenal to me.

My life before I was a Christian and my life as a Christian are drastically different. All I will say is my life is a billion times better than anything my old life offered. Simpy put the day I said Yes to Jesus was the best decision I ever made. And I seriously doubt everyone else who a relationship with Jesus ( not religion) is having hullucinations or are mentally ill, or unintelligent.

 

[Shikamaru]

Three things, ShadowBoxer.

First, you have to stop acting like you're not part of a religion. That's simply not true. You believe Jesus was the Son of God and the Bible to be the Word of God, which makes you a Christian. You don't necessarily have to identify with any specific denomination - you could be an Independent Christian - but that still makes you a Christian and part of an overall religion nonetheless.

Second, you've essentially just repeated everything we've discussed previously. To which my response would still be the same: the human mind is extremely susceptible to illusion. That goes for all of us, not just the religious people. There's a great video by Dawkins and Harris on this topic but I can't find it on the moment, so I'll leave you off with an analogy.

People often say the same thing about cancer survivors. They say it's a miracle if they or someone they know has survived through the horror of cancer. But let's think about that for a second. The probability for the survival of certain cancers is about 5%. That means 1 out of 20 patients would survive. Sure, it may be a miracle for that one patient who prayed to God and let Jesus in his heart...until you take into account the majority of those 19 patients probably did the same, yet you won't see a headline on news titled "19/20 pray to God, then die" because that's just in poor taste. Same thing applies to cases like the Holocaust, where the surviving Jews were deemed as a miracle and example of God's grace...forgetting two thirds of them were wiped out. That's just the brilliance the human mind at work, trained to isolate the positives from the negatives as a means of creating hope for going forward (and that's not necessarily always a bad thing).

The point being: When you take in account the grander context and realize the randomness of the universe., you begin to realize the chaotic randomness that happens daily in our lives. Every time you feel like God reached out to you, there were probably 10 or 20 people in your same shoes whose prayers weren't answered.

Finally, the fact you're happier as a Christian has nothing to do with the validity of the claims made by religion. You're not arguing why Christianity is true; you're arguing why it's useful. It's an important distinction to make. And to an extent, you're very right. Studies show that the average Christian, given all other factors being equal, is much happier than the average atheist. But that still doesn't add any validity to the factual claims made by Christianity. At best, it shows beliefs have their own evolutionary advantages and the human brain is reliant on it to a certain amount. It may be in our nature, but that by itself doesn't make it true.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Scientists search for answers in areas that don't currently have a definitive explanation. It confuses me that some of the super religious folks actually avoid these questions, or simply insert the same answer each time to cover such a wide variety of situations: It's just faith... or it's just cause the bible says...

Simply finding a way to relate a scripture to an event does not necessarily reveal a connection and thereby an explanation for an answer.

I remember one time there was a guest imam or scholar or someone who came to our campus to give a speech. at the end of it he was taking questions and I asked him something that I meant seriously: Do aliens exist? His answer: "Who cares. That's the mindset you should have right now because it does not concern you and blah blah blah..." I don't remember his exact words because this happened 5 years ago, but I was absolutely unsatisfied with that answer.

And objectively I honestly think he was incorrect, too.

 

[Warhammer]

Three things, ShadowBoxer.

First, you have to stop acting like you're not part of a religion. That's simply not true. You believe Jesus was the Son of God and the Bible to be the Word of God, which makes you a Christian. You don't necessarily have to identify with any specific denomination - you could be an Independent Christian - but that still makes you a Christian and part of an overall religion nonetheless.

Second, you've essentially just repeated everything we've discussed previously. To which my response would still be the same: the human mind is extremely susceptible to illusion. That goes for all of us, not just the religious people. There's a great video by Dawkins and Harris on this topic but I can't find it on the moment, so I'll leave you off with an analogy.

People often say the same thing about cancer survivors. They say it's a miracle if they or someone they know has survived through the horror of cancer. But let's think about that for a second. The probability for the survival of certain cancers is about 5%. That means 1 out of 20 patients would survive. Sure, it may be a miracle for that one patient who prayed to God and let Jesus in his heart...until you take into account the majority of those 19 patients probably did the same, yet you won't see a headline on news titled "19/20 pray to God, then die" because that's just in poor taste. Same thing applies to cases like the Holocaust, where the surviving Jews were deemed as a miracle and example of God's grace...forgetting two thirds of them were wiped out. That's just the brilliance the human mind at work, trained to isolate the positives from the negatives as a means of creating hope for going forward (and that's not necessarily always a bad thing).

The point being: When you take in account the grander context and realize the randomness of the universe., you begin to realize the chaotic randomness that happens daily in our lives. Every time you feel like God reached out to you, there were probably 10 or 20 people in your same shoes whose prayers weren't answered.

Finally, the fact you're happier as a Christian has nothing to do with the validity of the claims made by religion. You're not arguing why Christianity is true; you're arguing why it's useful. It's an important distinction to make. And to an extent, you're very right. Studies show that the average Christian, given all other factors being equal, is much happier than the average atheist. But that still doesn't add any validity to the factual claims made by Christianity. At best, it shows beliefs have their own evolutionary advantages and the human brain is reliant on it to a certain amount. It may be in our nature, but that by itself doesn't make it true.

I'm not going to lie...I pray and thank God fairly often, but logically, I couldn't argue against this even if I was Batman with prep time.

 

[Snow Queen]

I agree with this, but there's another problem.

How can I open myself up to God if I don't believe in him? It is literally impossible for me to believe in God. My mind won't allow it, just like your mind won't allow you to deny God's existence. It's possible for theists to become atheists and for atheists to become theists, but the mind needs to be persuaded.

The guy on the corner told me he could give me something to make me see God.