To Believe or Not To Believe? (SHOW RESPECT, OR RISK A BAN) - Part 2

[ShadowBoxer]

Creationism is just one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of. The article I posted on the last page goes into just one of the myriad of reasons it is so stupid. There is absolutely no evidence to support whereas there is metric tons of evidence that is BS. I say this as a Christian. The OT is not historical fact and to believe so is to bury your head in the sand

I don't mean this to be offensive, but you say your a christian but most of the post I seen from you have been in opposition to the christian faith. It seems most of your views fall in line with those that are non religious. I am not trying to question your beliefs because I don't know your heart. But that's what it seems like from the outside. God says he knew us before we were even formed in our mothers wombs. Your saying that God's a liar? I will admit there are some things in the OT that seems impossible or non sensical to us in the natural. But I feel as though this is God we are talking about, nothing is impossible for him and our laws of science and reasoning don't apply to him.

 

[KevanG]

Since the non religious here seem keen on picking apart religious views, I like to remind them that even the scientific theories the say totally discredits the exist of God have FLAWS in them whether they acknowledge them or not.

Evolution has a few flaws. First the theory declines to state that such random mutations cannot possibly increase an organism’s capabilities. It fails to say how such complexities of life forms could have occurred by random chance or blind luck. It doesn't reveal the impossibility of life developing on its own. It ignores the fact that spontaneous generation has never been proven.The theory of evolution doesn’t have any real idea on how life arose. Evolutionists readily admit that the theory of evolution doesn’t address the question of how life arose but only how it evolved once it did arise. Yet with these flaws, people readily accept it as fact. But the prospect of God/ a higher power is laughable?

Flaw with the Big Bang Theory

It violates the first law of thermodynamics, which says you can't create or destroy matter or energy. Also, the big bang doesn't address the creation of the universe, but rather the evolution of it.

If you don't believe me on these flaws your free to google them. Like I said, I am not against science and like most marvel at scientific discoveries but I DO NOT accept these theories as absolute fact. I definitely believe that God had a had in the creation of earth and all the living beings on it. Until a day comes when some scientist can provide REAL evidence (not just opinions) that God or the afterlife doesn't exist (which I am sure will NEVER come), I am comfortable in my faith in God and what the bible teaches.

And yet the people who say those theories are perfect have no idea what they are talking about. Anyone who does know what they're talking about freely admits those flaws as it's ongoing research.

It's not a matter of 'we have all the evidence we need so we don't want to hear any backtalk', it's gathering information and improving on existing information to build a better picture of what we are and where we came from.

As for the flaws in those two that you mentioned, people tend to understand and like evolution better because you can see it happen due to the fossil record and other things. You can go to a museum and see various humanoid skulls showing progression over millions of years into what we are today. Heck, you can go to a beach near where I live and find non-humanoid fossils in the stone walls. It's more a matter of being able to see and understand what happened and use a plethora of sources to verify what you are seeing as opposed to 'you have to take our word for it'.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

I don't mean this to be offensive, but you say your a christian but most of the post I seen from you have been in opposition to the christian faith. It seems most of your views fall in line with those that are non religious. I am not trying to question your beliefs because I don't know your heart. But that's what it seems like from the outside. God says he knew us before we were even formed in our mothers wombs. Your saying that God's a liar? I will admit there are some things in the OT that seems impossible or non sensical to us in the natural. But I feel as though this is God we are talking about, nothing is impossible for him and our laws of science and reasoning don't apply to him.

The OT was written in a time when they knew next to nothing. It is allegorical nothing more. I oppose stupidity in any form (Not saing the OT itself is stupid though). The Christian church was a leader in science for a long time in the past and I don't understand why so many today having a hard time accepting basic facts that are indisputable. God gave us our critical minds to expand our knowledge so for so many to perpetuate stupidity bugs the hell out of me

 

[Kelly]

The OT was written in a time when they knew next to nothing. It is allegorical nothing more. I oppose stupidity in any form (Not saing the OT itself is stupid though). The Christian church was a leader in science for a long time in the past and I don't understand why so many today having a hard time accepting basic facts that are indisputable. God gave us our critical minds to expand our knowledge so for so many to perpetuate stupidity bugs the hell out of me

I can essentially say that every Christian that I know...those that are practicing Christians, have absolutely no problem with Science. One of my best friends is a Baptist Preacher and HE LOVES discussing Science and its relationship to God.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Same here Kelly, many of my Christian friends have no issue with science and God working together and think creationist are beyond stupid.

 

[Kelly]

Same here Kelly, many of my Christian friends have no issue with science and God working together and think creationist are beyond stupid.

Who knows the means that God used to create the world...?

 

[KevanG]

Of course there's always the option that there is a god but he/she/it doesn't care and has never cared. It does it's own thing and one more species on a planet in a corner of a galaxy is nothing to it, if it even knows we exist and all religion is just a warm blanket to keep us thinking we're special when we're just another step on the evolutionary ladder.

Heck for all we know we could just be a snack for the Elder gods from the Cthulhu mythos or the like and they just consider our planet a buffet.

What if we all got a message from God saying he's had enough of us being idiots and is going to smite us all? No Ark, no Garden of Eden, just Scorched Earth and try again. Would you just accept it?

 

[Marvolo]

Of course there's always the option that there is a god but he/she/it doesn't care and has never cared. It does it's own thing and one more species on a planet in a corner of a galaxy is nothing to it, if it even knows we exist and all religion is just a warm blanket to keep us thinking we're special when we're just another step on the evolutionary ladder.

Heck for all we know we could just be a snack for the Elder gods from the Cthulhu mythos or the like and they just consider our planet a buffet.

What if we all got a message from God saying he's had enough of us being idiots and is going to smite us all? No Ark, no Garden of Eden, just Scorched Earth and try again. Would you just accept it?

Us not accepting it would be like an ant telling me or you that we can't step on it for reasons and thangs. Except there is a much larger gap between us and a supreme being. If a supreme being decides to smite us all we've already lost the argument. Not that there would be an argument. If we are the creation of a supreme being then we exist at its pleasure so we don't have much say in the matter. Regardless of how much we might think we should have a say.

 

[Kelly]

Of course there's always the option that there is a god but he/she/it doesn't care and has never cared. It does it's own thing and one more species on a planet in a corner of a galaxy is nothing to it, if it even knows we exist and all religion is just a warm blanket to keep us thinking we're special when we're just another step on the evolutionary ladder.

Heck for all we know we could just be a snack for the Elder gods from the Cthulhu mythos or the like and they just consider our planet a buffet.

What if we all got a message from God saying he's had enough of us being idiots and is going to smite us all? No Ark, no Garden of Eden, just Scorched Earth and try again. Would you just accept it?

Many people believe that today...

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I seen people bashing Ben Carson about not believing in evolution among other things on Facebook. I don't plan on voting for him or anything, but I did point out to folks that despite Evolution being taught in schools as abloute fact, they should also at least acknowledge the flaws in that theory.

 

[jerkhero]

We don't know everything about gravity either (haven't even found the fundamental particle). I don't know if that makes gravity any less true. And again, why is God automatically the answer if we have gaps in our knowledge?

 

[ShadowBoxer]

We don't know everything about gravity either (haven't even found the fundamental particle). I don't know if that makes gravity any less true. And again, why is God automatically the answer if we have gaps in our knowledge?

Why is science always the answer when there is no natural explanation for certain occurrences? Why is it automatically outrageous to believe that a higher power might be at play in those instances? Just saying it can go both ways, it just depends on a person's perspective.

 

[chaseter]

I seen people bashing Ben Carson about not believing in evolution among other things on Facebook. I don't plan on voting for him or anything, but I did point out to folks that despite Evolution being taught in schools as abloute fact, they should also at least acknowledge the flaws in that theory.

There is no plausible theory that God literally made Adam out of clay/mud/dirt. Evolution is fact. The mechanisms of Evolution are not absolute fact even despite micro evolution actually being observed.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

There is no plausible theory that God literally made Adam out of clay/mud/dirt. Evolution is fact. The mechanisms of Evolution are not absolute fact even despite micro evolution actually being observed.

While I understand where your coming from, I see one problem.For those that believe in God, we are talking about a powerful complex being here who is capable of and has no real limits. Sure the bible does indeed say Adam was made from dust/ dirty but it also said God breathed life into in. I am sure there was more to the process than what we know. So for me as a religious person, I can't say for sure God didn't do this because it doesn't add up by human understanding.

 

[jerkhero]

Maybe if these were phenomena we know nothing about, God might be more "reasonable" argument, but we have some knowledge about evolution and gravity. There's no evidence that points that some kind of creator might be the answer. Of course if someone could show that there's no graviton, but instead gravity's "elementary particle" might be God, it would be another story. But so far, there's no reason (evidence) to throw creator in the mix.

 

[Human Torch]

Why is science always the answer when there is no natural explanation for certain occurrences? Why is it automatically outrageous to believe that a higher power might be at play in those instances? Just saying it can go both ways, it just depends on a person's perspective.

It's the "Unexplained Science of Gaps" theory.

 

[chaseter]

While I understand where your coming from, I see one problem.For those that believe in God, we are talking about a powerful complex being here who is capable of and has no real limits. Sure the bible does indeed say Adam was made from dust/ dirty but it also said God breathed life into in. I am sure there was more to the process than what we know. So for me as a religious person, I can't say for sure God didn't do this because it doesn't add up by human understanding.

I believe in God. I do not believe the Bible is FACT...because it's not. Fanatics believe it's a document of historical fact, that every word happened as written. Those people are the ones that stand in front of Science even though evolution doesn't contradict the Bible. It just contradicts man's self righteous interpretation.

If Adam and Eve were the first humans, how did their kids marry? Where did Cain's wife come from?

 

[Human Torch]

As opposed to people writing a story and they didn't understand the implications of what they were talking about when considered fully? Instead of a magic incest good/bad switch which gets flipped because 'reasons'.

You're letting your preconceptions of incest color what was necessary for human's to thrive at the beginning.

In any case,it wasn't really that "icky" as it sounds. It was likely just cousins & niece/nephews marrying. I doubt God allowed parent/child marriages and so on.

 

[Human Torch]

There is no plausible theory that God literally made Adam out of clay/mud/dirt. Evolution is fact. The mechanisms of Evolution are not absolute fact even despite micro evolution actually being observed.

Evolution (I'm talking Macro-Evolution) is not a fact. Part of the problem is, too many Creationists get talked down by these evolutionary theories that use incredible stretches of logic,chance and good old fashioned luck to get where they're going.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "Well, Genesis is a fairy tale-not God's Word. But the rest of the Bible is OK." The concepts are mutually exclusive. If you believe the creation of the universe could have been achieved without an intelligent creator,there's no going back to the Bible. For anything really. No Law. No Right and Wrong. Everything is permissible.It's all good.

The problem really is that the burden of proof lays on the scientific community to prove these things. But they can't, so it's like the Emperor has no clothes. "Well, I don't want to be thought of as a dummy. This strangeo theory must be true. Some guy with a degree (who's making an obscene amount of money getting grants by telling the scientific community what they want to hear) said so."

How could they justify their research if they admitted it was beyond them? So they patch together a few theories and sell them as "science". And the college kids eat it up as "fact".

The truth is, a miracle- by it's very definition- is inexpiable by known science. That's why the burden of proof is not on Creationists to recreate the creation of the universe/man. I can't show it to you. I couldn't if my life depended on it. But you can't claim to have that knowledge as indisputable fact and not reproduce the effect.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Evolution (I'm talking Macro-Evolution) is not a fact. Part of the problem is, too many Creationists get talked down by these evolutionary theories that use incredible stretches of logic,chance and good old fashioned luck to get where they're going.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "Well, Genesis is a fairy tale-not God's Word. But the rest of the Bible is OK." The concepts are mutually exclusive. If you believe the creation of the universe could have been achieved without an intelligent creator,there's no going back to the Bible. For anything really. No Law. No Right and Wrong. Everything is permissible.It's all good.

The problem really is that the burden of proof lays on the scientific community to prove these things. But they can't, so it's like the Emperor has no clothes. "Well, I don't want to be thought of as a dummy. This strangeo theory must be true. Some guy with a degree (who's making an obscene amount of money getting grants by telling the scientific community what they want to hear) said so."

How could they justify their research if they admitted it was beyond them? So they patch together a few theories and sell them as "science". And the college kids eat it up as "fact".

The truth is, a miracle- by it's very definition- is inexpiable by known science. That's why the burden of proof is not on Creationists to recreate the creation of the universe/man. I can't show it to you. I couldn't if my life depended on it. But you can't claim to have that knowledge as indisputable fact and not reproduce the effect.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

No, just no. Incest has been shown time and again to cause mutations and deformities. There is no feasible way we came from Adam and Eve. That is not a literal story. We have already traced human lineage to several different types of species before man.

 

[chaseter]

Evolution (I'm talking Macro-Evolution) is not a fact. Part of the problem is, too many Creationists get talked down by these evolutionary theories that use incredible stretches of logic,chance and good old fashioned luck to get where they're going.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "Well, Genesis is a fairy tale-not God's Word. But the rest of the Bible is OK." The concepts are mutually exclusive. If you believe the creation of the universe could have been achieved without an intelligent creator,there's no going back to the Bible. For anything really. No Law. No Right and Wrong. Everything is permissible.It's all good.

The problem really is that the burden of proof lays on the scientific community to prove these things. But they can't, so it's like the Emperor has no clothes. "Well, I don't want to be thought of as a dummy. This strangeo theory must be true. Some guy with a degree (who's making an obscene amount of money getting grants by telling the scientific community what they want to hear) said so."

How could they justify their research if they admitted it was beyond them? So they patch together a few theories and sell them as "science". And the college kids eat it up as "fact".

The truth is, a miracle- by it's very definition- is inexpiable by known science. That's why the burden of proof is not on Creationists to recreate the creation of the universe/man. I can't show it to you. I couldn't if my life depended on it. But you can't claim to have that knowledge as indisputable fact and not reproduce the effect.

You just spouted out a bunch of pulpit feel good rhetoric without providing any substantial view to the contrary.

And yes, parts of the Bible are historical fact and some are allegories, lessons, and teachings. A fanatic believes every written word as fact. I'm sure you would have been on the side that the Earth is flat 500 years ago because science is fallible but interpretation of a man written document 3000 years old is infallible?

 

[chaseter]

No, just no. Incest has been shown time and again to cause mutations and deformities. There is no feasible way we came from Adam and Eve. That is not a literal story. We have already traced human lineage to several different types of species before man.

Ask a fanatic where Cain's wife came from. They can't answer.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/ev...t-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533


Anyway,I doubt one side is ever going to convince the other. But the fact is, things aren't as cut and dried as evolutionists want to claim it is.

I find it amusingly ironic how centuries ago you had the church trying to suppress things like the earth revolving around the sun because of the panic it would cause. "People will lose faith in the church!"

But here we are now,where the opposite is true. Creationist theorists are not given a decent platform for their discoveries/theories because it doesn't jibe with the "No room for God" mindset in the modern scientific community. What goes around, comes around.

The article you posted doesn't state anything factual, contrary to the title "Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard".
Did you even read it?

It basically say that Ballard unearthed an ancient shoreline, four hundred feet below the surface, which shows a catastrophic event did happen in the Black Sea. And by carbon dating, they estimate the event happened around 5,000 BC.

But there is no way to know if the flood was big or small.
Catastrophic events of this kind are not unique to the Bible. Some contemporary examples include the 2004 tsunami that wiped out villages on the coasts of 11 countries surrounding the Indian Ocean. There was also Hurricane Katrina, described as the worst hurricane in United States history.
Scholars aren't sure if the biblical flood was larger or smaller than these modern day disasters, but they do think the experiences of people in ancient times were similar to our own.
It could very well be a terrible natural disaster that escalated to being seen as worldwide.

If you want to believe in it, great; but you also have to believe that Noah was 600 years-old.

Besides, ever heard of the "The Epic of Gilgamesh", an epic poem from ancient Mesopotamia, written much earlier than the bible?

"The earlier Mesopotamian stories are very similar where the gods are sending a flood to wipe out humans," said biblical archaeologist Eric Cline. "There's one man they choose to survive. He builds a boat and brings on animals and lands on a mountain and lives happily ever after? I would argue that it's the same story."

So, i miss the all "What goes around, comes around"...

 

[Human Torch]

Ask a fanatic where Cain's wife came from. They can't answer.

Well,I know I can answer very easily.
Yet again,this is an example of people expecting the Bible to hold their hand in it's descriptions rather than using plain old common sense.

The bible tells us that Adam lived for 930 years producing sons and daughters all that time. Where does it state that the story of Cain & Abel happened when there was only 4 people on the earth? It's a common misconception resulting from not taking all things in consideration.

You just spouted out a bunch of pulpit feel good rhetoric without providing any substantial view to the contrary.

And yes, parts of the Bible are historical fact and some are allegories, lessons, and teachings. A fanatic believes every written word as fact. I'm sure you would have been on the side that the Earth is flat 500 years ago because science is fallible but interpretation of a man written document 3000 years old is infallible?

You are taking the Bible as man written document. We believe it's the unerring Word of God. And I'd caution you against throwing the term "fanatic" around so freely.