The Flash Tom Cavanaugh IS Harrison Wells/Eobard Thawne/Reverse-Flash

[gugumugats]

I'm sure this has been brought up. But if a younger Eobard would show up, should they recast or keep Cavanaugh?

 

[Batmannerism]

So in the comics RF actually becomes what they call a living paradox. Basically, he shouldn't exist but he does anyways. I'm not positive on this but I believe he is able to be a living paradox because of the negative speed force he uses.

This can't be a predestination paradox. We know that Barry becomes the flash whether RF traveled back in time to kill his mom or not. (of course in the flashpoint paradox his mom survives and he never becomes the flash) But we do know Wells knew about the flash before he came back in time. So when he came back it does create another timeline. Thawne still has the chance to kill the flash or escape(whatever he wants to do). Because of this new timeline he doesn't know what's going to happen. but he does have an incredible advantage because he knows what can potentially for the next 400 years.

In the comics though, RF travels back in time to meet Barry. Instead he winds up meeting Wally West and he finds out that he's the nemesis of Flash. Basically driving him crazy to fulfill his destiny and try to rewrite history making him the hero

Dude, isn't a predestination paradox when you travel back in time to prevent something and end up making it happen anyway? That RF travelling back in time to kill Barry sets the series of events in motion that leads to Barry getting his powers, becoming the Flash, which then inspires the future Wells to acquire similar powers and travel back in time, and then ultimately try to kill Barry which leads to..... and so on.

It doesn't make sense, which is why it's a paradox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox

Just checking, as time travel science fiction isn't my area at all, but that's what it sounds like. Don't get me wrong, I looooove time travel science fiction but I never get too fussy about the details.

cheers.

 

[DigificWriter]

I don't think Wells traveled backwards in time to kill Child!Barry; I think he and Adult!Barry traveled back in time to the same destination (intentionally or otherwise) and started a fight that ended up resulting in Nora Allen's death at Wells' hand.

 

[Golgo-13]

I don't think Wells traveled backwards in time to kill Child!Barry; I think he and Adult!Barry traveled back in time to the same destination (intentionally or otherwise) and started a fight that ended up resulting in Nora Allen's death at Wells' hand.

This.

 

[godisawesome]

Didn't he explicitly state he was trying to kill little Barry, though?

 

[Nathan]

He probably threw a knife after little Barry, and adult Barry moved him out of the way and to safety, and the knife hit Nora instead.

 

[Casval]

I'm sure this has been brought up. But if a younger Eobard would show up, should they recast or keep Cavanaugh?

He looked (obviously I know) way much younger 15 years ago so I'm for a recast.
But it will be difficult since he's fantastic as Eobard Thawne.

 

[Dark Raven]

If Wells knows that trying to kill little Barry will strand him in the past, he should never attempt that again now sometime in the future.

In which case slightly future Barry would only be going back to stop Reverse Flash who was present that night and not chasing slightly future Wells (from say, a few weeks' time) back into the past.

 

[gspot]

But what happens with older Barry? Wells is stuck, ok, but Barry saves his younger and disappears..where?

It's a good question. We know that The Flash was there that night - to stop RF from killing his younger self. We know he succeeds. Perhaps RF kills Nora to spite him, to hurt The Flash in the only means left to him - but accidentally creates a paradox. By removing Nora's influence - Barry's future changes, and he never becomes the Flash - so thus - the older Flash fades from the timestream as the timeline shifts to correct itself. Or perhaps - he kills her intentionally, trying to make his getaway. Either way - it leaves RF stranded there without his connection to the speed force - The Flash - he can't return home.

The Crisis newspaper was always an indication then that the timeline - where Barry becomes the Flash and saves the universe during the Crisis - was still intact. A future that RF needed to ensure - since he is from a time AFTER the crisis. So long as Barry "disappears" in the crisis - he knows his future as the Flash is still intact, when that newspaper changed - he knew the timeline was in trouble again.

 

[gspot]

He probably threw a knife after little Barry, and adult Barry moved him out of the way and to safety, and the knife hit Nora instead.

quite likely

 

[Arach Knight]

The narrative of the series seems clear about the fact that Wells has traveled back in time to ensure that Barry will become The Flash. Consider for a moment that no matter what, Barry's mother was going to be murdered and this would in part be the impetus for Barry growing up and becoming The Flash. When future Barry, already slavishly devoted to solving his mother's murder, discovers that he can go back in time via his powers, he sets out to undo his own future. In other words, if Barry succeeds in saving his own mother, he pretty much wipes out ever becoming The Flash. When Eobard discovers that Barry is preparing to undo the future, Eobard travels back in time to ensure that Barry's mother is killed and that Barry becomes The Flash. This is why Wells is a part of every moment of Barry's transition into the Flash.

1) Wells knowingly engages the particle accelerator, despite knowing that it will kill thousands and create metahumans. However, he devotes all of his time to seeking out a speedster, and agrees to help Barry recover from his coma. Wells even admits very early on that he knew that Barry would wake up from the coma with powers.

2) When Joe investigates Wells, he uncovers the fact that Wells had only come to Central City a few months before the death of Barry's mother. This strongly suggests that Wells sudden appearance was for the exact reason that Joe assumed: to kill Barry's mother.

3) Wells already has knowledge of the future and has clearly brought future tech back with him, as is seen with his newspaper (by the way, this is a huge nod to Back to the Future and the role of the Hill Valley Telegraph). He uses the newspaper to keep track of Barry's progress. If the paper changes, Wells knows that the future is screwed, but if it remains the same, then things are on track, even if they don't play out as he hopes.

4) Wells protects Barry at all costs. Wells was hesitant for Wally to jump right into being a superhero. Wells manipulates and kills people to keep Barry's secret or to keep him from the clutches of the government. If Barry dies, the future that Eobard knows will never come to fruition.

It would seem that if Barry never tried to alter the past, Eobard would never have followed him back and killed his mother. The only mystery at this point is why Eobard needs Barry to be The Flash, what Eobard did to future Barry after murdering Barry's mother, and what Eobard's endgame is. But everything else seems pretty concrete by following the clues and ignoring the red herrings. I could be horribly wrong, but everything seems to line up with my observations.

 

[Dark Raven]

The narrative of the series seems clear about the fact that Wells has traveled back in time to ensure that Barry will become The Flash. Consider for a moment that no matter what, Barry's mother was going to be murdered and this would in part be the impetus for Barry growing up and becoming The Flash. When future Barry, already slavishly devoted to solving his mother's murder, discovers that he can go back in time via his powers, he sets out to undo his own future. In other words, if Barry succeeds in saving his own mother, he pretty much wipes out ever becoming The Flash. When Eobard discovers that Barry is preparing to undo the future, Eobard travels back in time to ensure that Barry's mother is killed and that Barry becomes The Flash. This is why Wells is a part of every moment of Barry's transition into the Flash.

1) Wells knowingly engages the particle accelerator, despite knowing that it will kill thousands and create metahumans. However, he devotes all of his time to seeking out a speedster, and agrees to help Barry recover from his coma. Wells even admits very early on that he knew that Barry would wake up from the coma with powers.

2) When Joe investigates Wells, he uncovers the fact that Wells had only come to Central City a few months before the death of Barry's mother. This strongly suggests that Wells sudden appearance was for the exact reason that Joe assumed: to kill Barry's mother.

3) Wells already has knowledge of the future and has clearly brought future tech back with him, as is seen with his newspaper (by the way, this is a huge nod to Back to the Future and the role of the Hill Valley Telegraph). He uses the newspaper to keep track of Barry's progress. If the paper changes, Wells knows that the future is screwed, but if it remains the same, then things are on track, even if they don't play out as he hopes.

4) Wells protects Barry at all costs. Wells was hesitant for Wally to jump right into being a superhero. Wells manipulates and kills people to keep Barry's secret or to keep him from the clutches of the government. If Barry dies, the future that Eobard knows will never come to fruition.

It would seem that if Barry never tried to alter the past, Eobard would never have followed him back and killed his mother. The only mystery at this point is why Eobard needs Barry to be The Flash, what Eobard did to future Barry after murdering Barry's mother, and what Eobard's endgame is. But everything else seems pretty concrete by following the clues and ignoring the red herrings. I could be horribly wrong, but everything seems to line up with my observations.

Very interesting. But Wells said that he was trying to kill the young Barry. So why would he be trying to do that if he needed him to become the Flash?

 

[gspot]

Very interesting. But Wells said that he was trying to kill the young Barry. So why would he be trying to do that if he needed him to become the Flash?

He didn't realize at the time - that by altering Barry's past - he'd be marooning himself, that his powers were dependent on Barry's. So then he has to try and restore Barry's ascension to becoming the Flash.

 

[Arach Knight]

Very interesting. But Wells said that he was trying to kill the young Barry. So why would he be trying to do that if he needed him to become the Flash?

Red herring, perhaps? Wouldn't be the first in the series. The whole "Eddie/Eobard" ruse to throw off comicbook fans is an example that comes to mind. Also, in order for my second point to be true, we have to assume that Wells was lying to Joe about the whole "starting over" story and his wife. I take Eobard/Wells to be an unreliable narrator, if you'll allow me to borrow a term from literary studies.

 

[Dark Raven]

Red herring, perhaps? Wouldn't be the first in the series. The whole "Eddie/Eobard" ruse to throw off comicbook fans is an example that comes to mind. Also, in order for my second point to be true, we have to assume that Wells was lying to Joe about the whole "starting over" story and his wife. I take Eobard/Wells to be an unreliable narrator, if you'll allow me to borrow a term from literary studies.

But he said it to Cisco that he was trying to kill young Barry. Why would he be lying to him when he's about to kill him? And it's not like it would make much difference to Cisco or Wells either way if he tells the truth.

 

[Batmannerism]

But he said it to Cisco that he was trying to kill young Barry. Why would he be lying to him when he's about to kill him? And it's not like it would make much difference to Cisco or Wells either way if he tells the truth.

I agree, while Thawne ( I suppose we should start calling him that now) is a very deceptive character I don't think he would have any motive to lie to Cisco, just before murdering him.

What's weird is that clearly Thawne is a genius, so it seems that he would realise that killing Barry as a child would alter the timeline, such that the Flash would never exist and he (Thawne) would never have gained super-speed power - I suppose this is dependent on:

a) which explanation for Barry's powers and their connection to Thawne's powers the writers are using.

b) which theory of how time works (as in whether you can actually travel back in time and change the future, or instead you just end up being part of the chain of events that creates the future you came from).

It's fair to speculate that Thawne didn't know that he would lose his powers on the trip back in time to kill Barry - but killing Barry seems a bit pointless, unless either he wished to pretty much erase that version of himself from the timeline, OR perhaps he figured out a way to remove the Flash from history, yet retain his powers and leave his own personal timeline unchanged.

- one of the key moments in the Flashpoint storyline is when Thawne explains that he could never kill Barry, otherwise he (Thawne) would not exist - at least not as the RF. However, because Barry changes the timeline, Thawne becomes a living paradox who is unchanged by Barry's alterations - which would allow him to kill Barry (and he would have if Batman hadn't intervened).

However it plays out, I'm loving it ! Roll on episode 16.

I wonder which elements of the comics the writers will incorporate and which will be completely original.

 

[Arach Knight]

I agree, while Thawne ( I suppose we should start calling him that now) is a very deceptive character I don't think he would have any motive to lie to Cisco, just before murdering him.

It's fair to speculate that Thawne didn't know that he would lose his powers on the trip back in time to kill Barry - but killing Barry seems a bit pointless, unless either he wished to pretty much erase that version of himself from the timeline, OR perhaps he figured out a way to remove the Flash from history, yet retain his powers and leave his own personal timeline unchanged.

- one of the key moments in the Flashpoint storyline is when Thawne explains that he could never kill Barry, otherwise he (Thawne) would not exist - at least not as the RF

This is why I assume that Thawne had to have been lying, even if it made less sense to lie while killing Cisco. It makes even less sense for Thawne to undo his own future by killing Barry, and Thawne has gone to great lengths to keep Barry alive. If his mission were to truly kill Barry, he had ample opportunity, including Barry's coma. I believe Thawne is lying so that the writers can throw out yet another red herring. It is a sloppy one, but that seems to be the case. What would Thawne accomplish by killing childhood Barry?

 

[just one thing]

The narrative of the series seems clear about the fact that Wells has traveled back in time to ensure that Barry will become The Flash. Consider for a moment that no matter what, Barry's mother was going to be murdered and this would in part be the impetus for Barry growing up and becoming The Flash. When future Barry, already slavishly devoted to solving his mother's murder, discovers that he can go back in time via his powers, he sets out to undo his own future. In other words, if Barry succeeds in saving his own mother, he pretty much wipes out ever becoming The Flash. When Eobard discovers that Barry is preparing to undo the future, Eobard travels back in time to ensure that Barry's mother is killed and that Barry becomes The Flash. This is why Wells is a part of every moment of Barry's transition into the Flash.

1) Wells knowingly engages the particle accelerator, despite knowing that it will kill thousands and create metahumans. However, he devotes all of his time to seeking out a speedster, and agrees to help Barry recover from his coma. Wells even admits very early on that he knew that Barry would wake up from the coma with powers.

2) When Joe investigates Wells, he uncovers the fact that Wells had only come to Central City a few months before the death of Barry's mother. This strongly suggests that Wells sudden appearance was for the exact reason that Joe assumed: to kill Barry's mother.

3) Wells already has knowledge of the future and has clearly brought future tech back with him, as is seen with his newspaper (by the way, this is a huge nod to Back to the Future and the role of the Hill Valley Telegraph). He uses the newspaper to keep track of Barry's progress. If the paper changes, Wells knows that the future is screwed, but if it remains the same, then things are on track, even if they don't play out as he hopes.

4) Wells protects Barry at all costs. Wells was hesitant for Wally to jump right into being a superhero. Wells manipulates and kills people to keep Barry's secret or to keep him from the clutches of the government. If Barry dies, the future that Eobard knows will never come to fruition.

It would seem that if Barry never tried to alter the past, Eobard would never have followed him back and killed his mother. The only mystery at this point is why Eobard needs Barry to be The Flash, what Eobard did to future Barry after murdering Barry's mother, and what Eobard's endgame is. But everything else seems pretty concrete by following the clues and ignoring the red herrings. I could be horribly wrong, but everything seems to line up with my observations.

think he said he needs him to get faster, which is consistent with wells pushing him in earlier episodes. Its possible objectives changed from killing barry when nora allen died to creating the flash, to getting him up to speed. At some future point if barry gets to to necessary speed objective may revert to killing barry. Short medium and long term objectives.

 

[Arach Knight]

think he said he needs him to get faster, which is consistent with wells pushing him in earlier episodes. Its possible objectives changed from killing barry when nora allen died to creating the flash, to getting him up to speed. At some future point if barry gets to to necessary speed objective may revert to killing barry. Short medium and long term objectives.

Makes no sense that way. He wants to kill Barry, but needs Barry to get up to speed for some other objective, so that he may then kill Barry? Seems like a rather sloppy syllogism. I think the only issue people have with my propsed theory is that Wells tells Cisco while he "kills" him. However, Cisco is Vibe (at least in the comicbooks), so I don't suspect that he will actually be dead. So perhaps Wells/Thawne needed to throw off Cisco with the lie. After all, Thawne still knows the future, which means he would know that Cisco becomes Vibe.

 

[Batmannerism]

This is why I assume that Thawne had to have been lying, even if it made less sense to lie while killing Cisco. It makes even less sense for Thawne to undo his own future by killing Barry, and Thawne has gone to great lengths to keep Barry alive. If his mission were to truly kill Barry, he had ample opportunity, including Barry's coma. I believe Thawne is lying so that the writers can throw out yet another red herring. It is a sloppy one, but that seems to be the case. What would Thawne accomplish by killing childhood Barry?

True, it could be a red herring.
However, I suspect that somehow RF had worked out a way of killing young Barry (and thus removing his nemesis from existence) without altering his own personal timeline (so maybe his future would be different, but he himself would remain unaltered - again, a bit like in the Flashpoint storyline).

Of course, things didn't go to plan. Maybe Flash left that time period before Thawne did, which means he was trapped in an time before the speed-force existed (which would be consistent with the comics) and he had no 'juice' for his powers. Another explanation is that perhaps his powers (which were an artificial replication of Flash's) just burnt out from the trip.

Really, we won't know for a few episodes but personally I don't think it's likely to be a red herring. A couple of times people have argued for complicated explanations to events on the show (like the RF and Wells being in two places at once, being time travel, rather than a hologram) - and then ultimately a simpler explanation was correct.

As such, I think we should take Thawne at his word - although time will tell, and if you're right I will praise your insighfulness.


Precisely why Thawne wanted Barry dead is still unclear, particularly as this version of the RF is so much more calculating and rational (and occasionally sympathetic) which makes him a much, much better villain than the comic book version.

In fact, considering he went back to that night to kill Barry, it makes it deliciously ironic that in order to achieve his ends he's had to befriend, nurture and even save Barry's life on a couple of occasions.

In the comics the RF is just an obsessed *******, whereas Cavanaugh's Thawne is a bit more nuanced and interesting - and when he's in the suit, doing his thing he's actually pretty scary.

 

[metaphysician]

Note a further complication: its possible that Thawne thought he knew how time worked, and thus had a plan that would safely involve killing young Barry. . . but was *wrong*. After all, we've already had at least one incident where his plans were completely thrown for a loop ( when Farooq power drained Barry ). He doesn't know everything.

 

[dhandler01]

Yea I just think Thawne didnt realize that by going so far back he would not able to go forward again. He isnt lying, his overzealousness cost him...just like Barry's could if he tries to change time by saving his mom.

 

[Dark Raven]

Maybe Crisis Flash from the future disappeared because Season 1 Flash from around the present merged with him when he also tries to go back in time the same way future Flash did.

 

[Arach Knight]

True, it could be a red herring. However, I suspect that somehow RF had worked out a way of killing young Barry (and thus removing his nemesis from existence) without altering his own personal timeline (so maybe his future would be different, but he himself would remain unaltered - again, a bit like in the Flashpoint storyline)

I could be wrong, and your conclusion certainly has merit. Thawne never states which version of Barry he had come to kill. It is possible that he followed Barry back to the past so that he could murder him in that time and be rid of his enemy. Of course, that would be overly elaborate as time travel would not be a neessary factor in killing adult Barry. If he is there to kill childhood Barry so as to prevent the Flash from ever existing, there is ine small bit of evidence to support that possibility but it does not explain motive: during Barry's tussle with Thawne we see young Barry carried away by a red blur. Adult Barry could have saved himself so that Thawne couldn't carry out his mission. Though, I always took it as adult Barry not wanting his childhood self to be present during his mother's murder. I suppose time will tell in a few episodes.

 

[Infinity9999x]

This is why I assume that Thawne had to have been lying, even if it made less sense to lie while killing Cisco. It makes even less sense for Thawne to undo his own future by killing Barry, and Thawne has gone to great lengths to keep Barry alive. If his mission were to truly kill Barry, he had ample opportunity, including Barry's coma. I believe Thawne is lying so that the writers can throw out yet another red herring. It is a sloppy one, but that seems to be the case. What would Thawne accomplish by killing childhood Barry?

Lying about it to Cisco wouldn't make any sense, there's no reason to lie to a dead man. And it doesn't fit with what Tom himself said about the character, and how he wasn't lying to Cisco.

He was definitely there to kill young Barry. The why just isn't clear yet, but he obviously thought he could kill Barry and avoid negative ramifications on himself.