Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

[jaqua99]

Don't mess with Loki!

Just watching the MTV Awards, and Tom pretty much snatched a mike from Sam Jackson!

Well, fair as fair: the Avengers vs. Loki just won Best Fight, so I think Loki gets to say a few well-chosen words, something like "I'm happy to be hulk-smashed every day of the week!"

The one thing that irritated me about the movie. Loki should NEVER loose to ANY version of Hulk in a fight. He's got way too much for Hulk. Contrary to what the movie showed, Loki is too skilled of a magic user and is a matchup nightmare for Hulk. Loki in character shoudn't lose to hulk. So seeing him getting whipped around was hard to watch for me

 

[mkilban2]

The one thing that irritated me about the movie. Loki should NEVER loose to ANY version of Hulk in a fight. He's got way too much for Hulk. Contrary to what the movie showed, Loki is too skilled of a magic user and is a matchup nightmare for Hulk. Loki in character shoudn't lose to hulk. So seeing him getting whipped around was hard to watch for me

Loki was being arrogant and stuck in a monologue while and Hulk jumped at him, it was also well deserved, frick Loki!

 

[Mjölnir]

The one thing that irritated me about the movie. Loki should NEVER loose to ANY version of Hulk in a fight. He's got way too much for Hulk. Contrary to what the movie showed, Loki is too skilled of a magic user and is a matchup nightmare for Hulk. Loki in character shoudn't lose to hulk. So seeing him getting whipped around was hard to watch for me

I agree. As funny as the moment was for the general viewer it just made Loki, the main villain of the movie, seem much too weak. Hulk isn't particularly bright and should be someone Loki can trick pretty easily.

I had been more for it if Loki had done more during the battle but he mainly got his ass kicked by Thor and then didn't do much at all until he met Hulk.

 

[Lady Marion]

KNEEL!

And congratulate Mr. Hiddleston for his Best Villain win on the MTV Awards.

Congratz to Tom. He is not only the Best Villain, it's for the Best Worst Brother ever. lol

http://www.mtv.com/videos/misc/8987...his-portrayal-as-the-worst-brother-ever.jhtml

 

[Farren]

And the hordes of Hiddleston/Loki fans are going to grow even more with this award. The man may become more popular than Hemsworth/Thor if he keeps this up.

Honestly I thought he already was.

 

[Godzilla2000]

I just wonder if Tom is getting tired of all the ultra possessive attention yet.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Feels like he seems to enjoy it. Lol

 

[Incredible Hans]

The one thing that irritated me about the movie. Loki should NEVER loose to ANY version of Hulk in a fight. He's got way too much for Hulk. Contrary to what the movie showed, Loki is too skilled of a magic user and is a matchup nightmare for Hulk. Loki in character shoudn't lose to hulk. So seeing him getting whipped around was hard to watch for me

I disagree.

Hulk beat up Dormammu in the comics.

Loki is powerful, but he also tends to underestimate opponents. Keep in mind that...

- Hawkeye's explosive arrow just exploded in Loki's face.

- Loki just got tackled by Hulk.

- Loki didn't expect Hulk to be at the battle in New York at the first place ("I thought the beast had wandered off...").

- Loki thinks that Hulk is just a dull-witted brute, a "lost creature" and "beneath him".

I don't think that Loki's defeat is out of character. Yes, Loki could defeat Hulk with preparation and a plan. But if taken off-guard, Loki would lose, just like he did it in the movie (and just like Dormammu lost to Hulk in the comics).

 

[jaqua99]

I disagree.

Hulk beat up Dormammu in the comics.

Loki is powerful, but he also tends to underestimate opponents. Keep in mind that...

- Hawkeye's explosive arrow just exploded in Loki's face.

- Loki just got tackled by Hulk.

- Loki didn't expect Hulk to be at the battle in New York at the first place ("I thought the beast had wandered off...").

- Loki thinks that Hulk is just a dull-witted brute, a "lost creature" and "beneath him".

I don't think that Loki's defeat is out of character. Yes, Loki could defeat Hulk with preparation and a plan. But if taken off-guard, Loki would lose, just like he did it in the movie (and just like Dormammu lost to Hulk in the comics).

was dormammu outside of the dark dimension? In WWH hulk "beat up" a Zom Possessed strange, with a lot of PIS. I just hope they don't make Hulk some unstoppable light. I know strength is his thing, but there are now two characters getting introduced in phase 2 that simply outclass Hulk when it comes to strength, I hope he has vulnerability, the trump card get's old real quick.

 

[Mjölnir]

was dormammu outside of the dark dimension? In WWH hulk "beat up" a Zom Possessed strange, with a lot of PIS. I just hope they don't make Hulk some unstoppable light. I know strength is his thing, but there are now two characters getting introduced in phase 2 that simply outclass Hulk when it comes to strength, I hope he has vulnerability, the trump card get's old real quick.

I can agree with you on the deal with Hulk. I think the character is cool but I can at times have trouble with writing that arrives to the conclusion that strength overcomes everything.

One example of that is Hulk vs Thor (this one in general context, not the movie specifically). Logically such a fight could be somewhat accurately compared to the world's strongest man fighting the UFC heavyweight champion. Strength is awesome but skill is always more important. That said I would of course not want Thor to just manhandle Hulk either.

Being a brilliant strategist and gameplanner is also very important and when you get to the situation where someone's mind can actually affect reality, like Loki, then you really set up a problem that you shouldn't just be able to overcome with strength. Therefor I too had some problems with Hulk just smashing Loki with no trouble at all.

 

[Godzilla2000]

I think what I'm gathering from some of your posts is that a lot of the disatisfaction with Loki being so easily trashed by the Hulk comes from the scene being contrived as a brief humorous moment at Loki's expense instead of seeing him using a bit of his mastery of magic against Hulk's brute strength to show that Loki isn't as much if a pushover as the scene would imply. Is my assessment pretty accurate?

 

[Incredible Hans]

I can agree with you on the deal with Hulk. I think the character is cool but I can at times have trouble with writing that arrives to the conclusion that strength overcomes everything.

One example of that is Hulk vs Thor (this one in general context, not the movie specifically). Logically such a fight could be somewhat accurately compared to the world's strongest man fighting the UFC heavyweight champion. Strength is awesome but skill is always more important. That said I would of course not want Thor to just manhandle Hulk either.

Being a brilliant strategist and gameplanner is also very important and when you get to the situation where someone's mind can actually affect reality, like Loki, then you really set up a problem that you shouldn't just be able to overcome with strength. Therefor I too had some problems with Hulk just smashing Loki with no trouble at all.

Sorry, but I think you all didn't get the point of that scene. It wasn't just humorous.

Yes, Loki is a brilliant strategist and gameplanner. He fooled everyone during the first half of the film. But how ironic is it that his master plan got ruined by a dull-witted brute?

Loki's problem was that at that point the Hulk wasn't a factor in his plan at all anymore. He thougt that the "beast had wandered off". His plan was to use Hulk against the heroes on the helicarrier - and then bye bye, Hulk.

No one (except Stark) expected Hulk to return. That's the major flaw in Loki's plan: He didn't know that Banner is able to control the Hulk. No one knew. Banner probably told Stark when they worked together on the helicarrier (that's why Stark asked Cap if Banner has returned - he was the only one who knew that the Hulk would come).

So, since Loki never expected Hulk to be present at the battle of New York, he had no plan for dealing with him. In a calm state of mind, Loki could have improvised. But he just got humiliated by Hawkeye's explosive arrow and Hulk's tackle. Loki was angry. He wasn't thinking at that point.

Every other hero would have waited for Loki to finish his speech. Hulk didn't. That took him totally by surprise. In his speech, Loki said that all of them are beneath him. So it's an ironic scene that shows Loki failing because of his own arrogance. The mastermind got surprised by a stupid beast. The god got surprised by a mortal "lost creature". That's what makes the scene so great.

(BTW, even a wizard can be defeated easily if he is taken off-guard. There are comics where Thor and Loki have a very long and nasty fight - but there are also comics where Thor rushes into Loki's castle in anger and takes him out easily with one or two blows. Hulk, by the way, once took down Ares with one blow by surprise. Everthing's possible )

 

[Vartha]

HHHHMMMMMM?
http://screenrant.com/crow-remake-tom-hiddleston/

 

[Incredible Hans]

was dormammu outside of the dark dimension? In WWH hulk "beat up" a Zom Possessed strange, with a lot of PIS. I just hope they don't make Hulk some unstoppable light. I know strength is his thing, but there are now two characters getting introduced in phase 2 that simply outclass Hulk when it comes to strength, I hope he has vulnerability, the trump card get's old real quick.

As far as I remember, Dormammu was inside the dark dimension.

First battle Hulk vs. Dormammu - when Dormammu is prepared




Second battle Hulk vs. Dormammu - when Dormammu is surprised:

(On the next page, which I couldn't find on the net, you see the Hulk standing over a defeated Dormammu, yelling at him. It just took that one blow)

 

[BigThor]

I think what I'm gathering from some of your posts is that a lot of the disatisfaction with Loki being so easily trashed by the Hulk comes from the scene being contrived as a brief humorous moment at Loki's expense instead of seeing him using a bit of his mastery of magic against Hulk's brute strength to show that Loki isn't as much if a pushover as the scene would imply. Is my assessment pretty accurate?

Yeah that's an accuurate assessment, it also took away from him being an actual threat with the audiences. No one talks about how Loki tricks the team or ruthlessly kills anyone in his way, they only talk about how Hulk "kicked his ass".

On a seperate note, after seeing two fairly good Thor/Loki fights I'd like for Thor to just get fed up and pulverise Loki in seconds. It would be pretty satisfying after all the crap Loki's, it only makes sense for Thor to finally see Loki for what he is.

 

[Incredible Hans]

" it only makes sense for Thor to finally see Loki for what he is."

 

[Mjölnir]

Sorry, but I think you all didn't get the point of that scene. It wasn't just humorous.

Yes, Loki is a brilliant strategist and gameplanner. He fooled everyone during the first half of the film. But how ironic is it that his master plan got ruined by a dull-witted brute?

Loki's problem was that at that point the Hulk wasn't a factor in his plan at all anymore. He thougt that the "beast had wandered off". His plan was to use Hulk against the heroes on the helicarrier - and then bye bye, Hulk.

No one (except Stark) expected Hulk to return. That's the major flaw in Loki's plan: He didn't know that Banner is able to control the Hulk. No one knew. Banner probably told Stark when they worked together on the helicarrier (that's why Stark asked Cap if Banner has returned - he was the only one who knew that the Hulk would come).

So, since Loki never expected Hulk to be present at the battle of New York, he had no plan for dealing with him. In a calm state of mind, Loki could have improvised. But he just got humiliated by Hawkeye's explosive arrow and Hulk's tackle. Loki was angry. He wasn't thinking at that point.

Every other hero would have waited for Loki to finish his speech. Hulk didn't. That took him totally by surprise. In his speech, Loki said that all of them are beneath him. So it's an ironic scene that shows Loki failing because of his own arrogance. The mastermind got surprised by a stupid beast. The god got surprised by a mortal "lost creature". That's what makes the scene so great.

(BTW, even a wizard can be defeated easily if he is taken off-guard. There are comics where Thor and Loki have a very long and nasty fight - but there are also comics where Thor rushes into Loki's castle in anger and takes him out easily with one or two blows. Hulk, by the way, once took down Ares with one blow by surprise. Everthing's possible )

I do get the point of the scene, it's not hard to see. I just don't think it's the best way to go about it. Hulk isn't someone that Loki should have to plan for. He's not particularly bright and very straight forward, which is the perfect victim for a trickster (which is also the kind of character that tends to have an ace in the sleeve).

It would also have been different if Loki had actually gotten to show more of his ability that far into the movie. As it is a lot of what he did was just the scepter's work, and what he showed of himself was mainly physical. Loki has much more to bring than just a plan like the one in the Helicarrier.

And as my main point was in the former post; I think Hulk is a really cool character but since the writing so often is that strength is enough to overcome everything it drags the character down because it's not particularly good writing.

As for the Dormammu bits I wouldn't call the second one a battle, I'd call it a sneak attack. A battle is when both are aware of each other in my view.

 

[jaqua99]

" it only makes sense for Thor to finally see Loki for what he is."

is this a recent quote? Good. Sounds a bit more like Loki

 

[Incredible Hans]

I do get the point of the scene, it's not hard to see. I just don't think it's the best way to go about it. Hulk isn't someone that Loki should have to plan for. He's not particularly bright and very straight forward, which is the perfect victim for a trickster (which is also the kind of character that tends to have an ace in the sleeve).

It would also have been different if Loki had actually gotten to show more of his ability that far into the movie. As it is a lot of what he did was just the scepter's work, and what he showed of himself was mainly physical. Loki has much more to bring than just a plan like the one in the Helicarrier.

And as my main point was in the former post; I think Hulk is a really cool character but since the writing so often is that strength is enough to overcome everything it drags the character down because it's not particularly good writing.

As for the Dormammu bits I wouldn't call the second one a battle, I'd call it a sneak attack. A battle is when both are aware of each other in my view.

You just said "sneak attack". That reminds me of something.

The scene with Hulk and Black Widow on the Helicarrier... it's dark, Widow is hiding, waiting. She's trying to locate the Hulk but she can't. She's still sitting there, full of fear, trying to control herself... and then suddenly Hulk, out of nowhere, is next to her, screaming and yelling, chasing her through the room...

So let's reconsider this: there are two people in a dark room.

One is a master spy, small, dressed in black, highly skilled in stealth...

The other is a primitive, angry, big green creature who can't even spell the word "sneak" and likes to roar, stomp and make any kind of noises...

How in the world is the Hulk able to sneak up on the Black Widow? In that situation, if she doesn't want to be found, he should never be able to find her.

For me, that is way more out of character than Hulk beating up Loki.

(BTW, I'm a big Loki fan...)

 

[Mjölnir]

You just said "sneak attack". That reminds me of something.

The scene with Hulk and Black Widow on the Helicarrier... it's dark, Widow is hiding, waiting. She's trying to locate the Hulk but she can't. She's still sitting there, full of fear, trying to control herself... and then suddenly Hulk, out of nowhere, is next to her, screaming and yelling, chasing her through the room...

So let's reconsider this: there are two people in a dark room.

One is a master spy, small, dressed in black, highly skilled in stealth...

The other is a primitive, angry, big green creature who can't even spell the word "sneak" and likes to roar, stomp and make any kind of noises...

How in the world is the Hulk able to sneak up on the Black Widow? In that situation, if she doesn't want to be found, he should never be able to find her.

For me, that is way more out of character than Hulk beating up Loki.

(BTW, I'm a big Loki fan...)

I can agree with that, but I'd say it's more out of character for Hulk in that situation. Widow is mortally afraid so she can be acting far from optimally, but I don't really see why the Hulk, currently driven by an uncontrollable rage, would sneak (and this is assuming that he can). Just as the Loki scene it's something that's just done for good effect and they accept to stretch the plausibility a bit for that.

 

[metaphysician]

Bluntly, Hulk has no business doing anything to Dormammu, anymore than he'd have any business doing anything to Odin. Some people are just out of his league.

As for the Hulk vs Loki fight, honestly, its fine. Loki lost, but he lost after a point where he'd both gotten the crap kicked out of him by Thor, disarmed, and was emotionally off-balance from his plans falling apart around him. If he were fresh? I suspect the Hulk would have been brainwashed.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Bluntly, Hulk has no business doing anything to Dormammu, anymore than he'd have any business doing anything to Odin. Some people are just out of his league.

As for the Hulk vs Loki fight, honestly, its fine. Loki lost, but he lost after a point where he'd both gotten the crap kicked out of him by Thor, disarmed, and was emotionally off-balance from his plans falling apart around him. If he were fresh? I suspect the Hulk would have been brainwashed.

I don't agree on your first part. Hulk is part of the Defenders. He has as much reason fighting Dormammu as Thor has fighting Ultron.

But for your second part...

 

[jaqua99]

As far as I remember, Dormammu was inside the dark dimension.

First battle Hulk vs. Dormammu - when Dormammu is prepared




Second battle Hulk vs. Dormammu - when Dormammu is surprised:

(On the next page, which I couldn't find on the net, you see the Hulk standing over a defeated Dormammu, yelling at him. It just took that one blow)

Bluntly, Hulk has no business doing anything to Dormammu, anymore than he'd have any business doing anything to Odin. Some people are just out of his league.

As for the Hulk vs Loki fight, honestly, its fine. Loki lost, but he lost after a point where he'd both gotten the crap kicked out of him by Thor, disarmed, and was emotionally off-balance from his plans falling apart around him. If he were fresh? I suspect the Hulk would have been brainwashed.

yeah, I just am a bit bitter because Loki really couldn't hold his own in a fight through out the movie. I agree about the dormammu thing. Just as ridiculous as the dr strange fight in WWH.

We've seen what happens when Hulk takes on someone as powerful as Odin lol

 

[Incredible Hans]

yeah, I just am a bit bitter because Loki really couldn't hold his own in a fight through out the movie. I agree about the dormammu thing. Just as ridiculous as the dr strange fight in WWH.

We've seen what happens when Hulk takes on someone as powerful as Odin lol

It is canon that Marvel's biggest guns (Thor, Hulk, Herc, Surfer) are at least able to make some impression against people like skyfathers, galactic deities and demon lords. Of course, normally they don't win. But in rare cases, when surprise is on their side... there is a chance.

 

[Godzilla2000]

" it only makes sense for Thor to finally see Loki for what he is."

Aw! Now that's more adorable than threatening! Making me think of a character in an anime my niece watches. Can't recall his name because I haven't watched anime since the 90's but he's a black haired cat guy I think. Anyways, I guess Loki secretly is a furry since he likes turning into animals a lot.

*edit* A quick Google search for said character indicates the character's name is Train Heartnet. I'm sure Tom would be the best person to play the character in a live action movie since the character mirrors the level of fangirl possessiveness many female characters in the anime heap on poor Train according to my research, ie: talking with my niece about the anime.

Feels like he seems to enjoy it. Lol

Looks can be deceiving though. Take it from someone like me who knows first hand about hiding true feelings at other's convenience just to keep the peace.