You're right about one thing. Optimus is no Gandalf...he's more than Gandalf. There is an entire story behind transformers and the character themselves. Any transformers fan knows that.
Well your debating tastes now.. and on the internet no less, so I don't need to remind you how pointless that is!
t: yes, I'm sure to the transformers fan, the jablonski score reinforces that "there's more than meets the eye with hazbro's TV for toys methedology". I'm glad bay/jablonski went this route than the usual route "hollywierd" goes for where they think they have to please their 5 year old child, the way Lucas did.
My point about Gandalf is the breadth of work from Tolken where he created this world vs Hasbros. Which perhaps I should have phrased it: Hasbro aint't no Tolken.
t: But like I said its really down to personal tastes, as well as hasbro not setting out to make a whole world.
The depth to each of the characters is quite clearly there, but Bay doesn't pause the movie and tell you that and their entire background. As a transformers fan he already expects you to know the history of the characters, as well as the history between the autobots and decepticons....hence the reason he threw in the Megatron line about Starscream "failing once again", and the "more than meets the eye" line. And if the viewer doesn't know the history of each of the characters then it is still an awesome movie with a sweet score.
yes but thats HARDLY the depth that I was referencing regarding Transformers and LOTR's. Like I said: I like the way the film came out. I don;t think there could be a better transformers movie, except perhaps one by James Cameron, only because he's a better director. I'm just making a generalized statement about recent scoring in films, and specifically transformers. That being said, I wouldn't change the score for some generic composition by a bored composer waiting for his paycheck.
HOWEVER, I would have liked to have see jablonski score developed further so that he wouldn't put the established heroric autobot theme over theme heroric human scene and a the established human military action theme over a autobot charge theme, as well as a bumblebee theme unchanged over optimus speech as to why they are fighting. I wish he would have developed them further or added additional themes. Call me selfish!
t: however I think this would have added a nice level of sophistication to the score that is often a critic of the remote control scores.
disagree with you on the Zimmer/Jablonsky thing. I've never heard Zimmer come close to anything like Jablonsky's autobot descent.
Again, this is just tastes, but Zimmer's "Backdraft", that is both heroric and action oriented. The march to the line theme from "thin red line", as well as a beautiful piece, not in the album, when the lead character sacrifices himself to the japanese.. beautiful! Some gorgeous moments in "prince of egypt", while "the power of one" is possibly one of my favorite scores. Some nice cues in beyond ragoon that could have benefited from better instrumentation. Gladiator, period! From the Holst-esque battle march to the hero theme that can be played either haunting or victorious, to the understated rome enterance to the perfect marriage with Lisa gerrarld (sp?). batman begins, with its simple yet effective strings (as borrowed by transformers) as well as its unyeilding, unrelenting action centerpiece (which ws used as a temp track all throoughut transformers!), Davinci code.. I think it features one of the hans Zimmer's strength of building up a simple motif. There's more but I think you get the idea.. some great examples of what made zimmer zimmer. I'd add the third pirate film's love theme because its showing a complexity that I've been waiting for from zimmer.
Oh, and how could I leave King Arthur out, as well as "last Samurai"... for me, the marches and the last track in King Arthur shows a bit my point: I love how Zimmer tied alot of the themes together in the last track on King Arthur... meanwhile samurai showed some really nice quiet themes, based on the zen subject matter, as well as instrumentation.
However, from the starting gate, I think jablonski has more interesting instrumentation, especially for the haunting themes, and his action cues are a bit more diverse. he's clearly shown what he has to add to the Remote Control portfolio that is all his, and I believe that, as good as transformers is, his best is yet to come.
People say that they all sound alike...for which they are minutely correct. However, they are two different composers,
In the case of transformers, its temp track was made up of alot of recent zimmer scores.. and the island.. in fact the temp track was almost all batman begins, specifically track 10, stuff from the island, and a potpourri of media ventures archive. THATS moreso why they sound alike.. they wanted the zimmer sound, not becaue jablonski is lacking. however, ild love to see jablonski grow from here.
and to say that Jablonsky wears the themes on the sleeve of his shoulder is probably not a fair statement. He said during the composing process he made up six different themes.
I didn't specify jablonsky but the whole Remote Control Posse.. basically what I mean is the "anthems" that they use that kind of give the music alot of punch but leave peopel feeling like they heard it before. the themes are simple in structure and play on very well established cues. Nothing wrong with that and I luve the stuff, but hardened music afficionados criticise it for its symplicity. I think for the most part, considering the films they serve, its totally appropriate.
yes, he made the six thems. and they are lovely, I'd just would have to like to have seen more bridge themes as well as sub themes to avoid the over simplification that I mentioned above. Like I said, call me selfish!!
t: I wanted more.
Go back and listen to all of Howard Shores work on LOTR. You'll find that he repeats and uses themes from track to track over and over again. That resounding LOTR theme is in several tracks that are used for different characters.
I found the that shore often wove alot of the themes together... my main "criticism" of the "antheming" that remote control composers have. the irony is that while I listen to Remote Control" scores more often than LOTR, I think shore's score is a better score because of its nuance and sophistication. So while its a better score, I still listen more often to the Remote Control anthems. Which is why I wish to see someoone like jablonski take his hard work and develop his themse more into sub themes and bridge themes. Badelt did it to some extent with "the promise".
I've had heated debates like this with my previous work collegue because she was a "shore ****e", I mean she loved LOTRs. Her main criticism is that to her, all of the Remote Control scores sound the same... and in her defense, transformers sounds alot like batman begins. My defense was that while that is true, many composers copy their own work as well. But for me, I'd rather hear Remote control anthems repeated rather than that tired jame horner repeating his lilting horns tha are tired and sound so dated.
You have to realize that too many themes in a score makes it a really confusing, hard-to-follow score that can't tell a story on it's own to well. That's what these composers realize. Not too many, but just enough of the right thing is a good mix!!!
Yes, and thats why you have bridge thems and smaller motifs. In the case of transformers, it sounds unsophisticated to me in the film because six thems become "anthems" instead of themes where they are 'cue", like a video game, over generic scenes, i.e. action "cue" for action scene. Still, great composer, great music, and like I said, I tend to listen to the anthem scores more than the multi themed and complex scores like shore. The main reason for that is that the anthems deliver the "goods" with no real build up or overlaying themes. its just BOOM: your happy, your sad, you running, etc.. again its like wearing your emotions on your sleeves. Its fun stuff that is a treasure in my collection. However, for that very reason that its fun is the reason why music afficionados, who like complex theme building and mixing, criticise the zimmer posse for being to anthem like where they switch them on and off like action cues in a video game.
Like I said, much of this is tastes, so its not worth debating, but its fun to see each of our point of views. While I love the anthems, and I listen to them more often, I would like to see them taken to a more sophisticated level.
Lastly, listen to the score for "meet Joe Black".. its interesting because they composer had to creat themes that were dealing with an "abstract": how do yiou create a theme that represents a good man's life. Bittersweet, but hopefull and eventually triumphful even when letting go. Youc an learn alot about scoring the subtleties with that film!
Didn't they think that others might feel the same way as i might when they decided to drag their asses putting this thing together...?
