Transformers/The Last Stand: The inevitable comparison

[Angamb]

I think I'm totally agreed with you.

Finally, someone spoke well! hahaha.

Well, definetly X3 should have had a 2:30 hours movie and a more epic feel, with emotional action scenes, not just two seconds for each x-men.

And about the budget, I doubt much money was for the actors. There are many films in the whole history with a cast of A names and the budget wasn't high. Yes, X3 had a big cast, but a big part of the money was surely spend because of time problems, not because of the main actors.

 

[X-Maniac]

That's an interesting question. X-Men could have used better action, more action, and consistent special effects. The movie was too short for any of the action sequences to have a lasting impact and it's obvious that a lot of money was wasted.

I agree the movie needed to be longer and more rounded/developed in places, but I don't see where it's obvious that a lot of money was wasted.

The movie should have been no less than 30 minutes longer. Since the storyline was more complex than X2 it should have even been longer than that movie. Therefore, yes X3 would have sucked less if it had been more like transformers.

Are you sure? People on here complain now about X3 being all action and explosions. Would you really want more action and explosions and less character development?

Yes. The one thing Michael Bay does know is how to direct exciting action sequences. At least he would have gotten that right and X3's run time would have been around 2 hours and 30minutes. Ratner gave us mindless action sequences and mischaracterized most of the characters in the film. It's sad that transformers lack of characterization upset me less than X3's lack of characterizations and mischaracterizations for multiple characters.

You're less upset because this was the first modern TF movie, unlike X3 there were no previous movies a few years ago with a different style and creative team. Also, I think you - and most people - expect less heart and soul in a movie about giant robots smashing through skyscrapers. There's also no certainty that Bay would be allowed to create an X3 movie with a runtime as long as TF, or that his characterisations would be any different (especially if he was working to the same script). Just because Bay can make things blow up very well... with the expert help of Spielberg, it has to be said.. does not mean he would deliver the X3 you would want.

Some people had cut X3 slack for the film not feeling like a 210million dollar movie as a result of it's actors salaries. This is BS. Considering the complexity of transformers action and special effects it's buget should have been considerably higher than most movies released this summer. The chronicles of Naria and Titantic both had higher budgets than transformers despite having effects that were less impressive.

What's really interesting about this whole argument is Laura Donner said X3's budget was set at 150million before Vaughn left. How in the hell was Fox going to make an epic movie with two complex storylines from the comics, a running time 30 minutes less than X2, an increase in characters from X2, and a considerable increase in actor/actress salaries from X2? The answer to these questions is there was no way Fox was going to accomplish all these things with a budget this small and it shows. That extra 60million dollars that were added to the budget is the result of Vaughn leaving and money being wasted on sets that were scrapped from the original project.

It is clear to me that Vaughn knew there was no way he could direct a film anything close to being epic under these restrictions so he bailed on the project. It was a smart move for him because he ended up saving his reputation. On the other hand Ratner may never get a chance to direct another film outside of the Rush Hour universe again.

Where is the evidence that a further $60m was added to the budget because money was wasted on sets scrapped from the original project? What sets? Vaughn was working to a very similar script. It's quite obvious he left because he couldn't do the project (to a standard he was happy with, at a pace he was happy with) in the time available. It's a pity he left, as he did throw the production into chaos for a while --- and it didn't keep his reputation intact at all.

Actor salaries do play a part more than in something like TF or Titanic or Narnia. Hugh Jackman must be on $20m by now, Halle and McKellen would be on $15m or more, Stewart would be well-paid also, and Kelsey Grammer would get a good salary too.

What's really pathetic about these numbers is despite having a strong history of 40 years of comic book source material all three X-Men movies were made with less quality than a film based on a toyline. What's even more pathetic is a film franchise based off of a ride ended up killing the X-Men franchise financially.

I agree that the movies weren't always handled in the best way. I can't judge against the quality of TF as I haven't seen that yet. And Pirates didn't 'kill the X-Men franchise', it surpassed all other movie franchises financially and became a runaway success. Gore Verbinski proved himself a very capable talent, and the second and third movies were filmed together, which was a good move.

Given the fact that Eragon and FF2 came out after X3 and both had short run-times (shorter than X3), I don't think your ranting has swayed anyone at Fox to do things differently.

 

[Theweepeople]

I agree the movie needed to be longer and more rounded/developed in places, but I don't see where it's obvious that a lot of money was wasted.

Laura Donner confirmed this a year ago after X-Men 3 was released. I posted a link to this information for you multiple times in the past year. This information is quite easy to find so you must not be trying at all to find it.

Are you sure? People on here complain now about X3 being all action and explosions. Would you really want more action and explosions and less character development?

No. I want better action and explosions. Not lackluster action and explosions. The only action sequence that impressed me was the one at Jean's house and even some of those fight scenes looked silly:

Wolverine not getting a single punch in against someone who is considerably less agile than him was beyond ridiculous.

Seeing Juggernaut picking up wolverine and throwing him throw the ceiling and then immediately seeing wolverine fall throw the ceiling defied physics.

You're less upset because this was the first modern TF movie, unlike X3 there were no previous movies a few years ago with a different style and creative team.

No. I'm not upset at all because transformers is a live action movie based on a toyline with very little source material and it ended up being 10 times more entertaining than a franchise based on 40 years of comic book history.

Also, I think you - and most people - expect less heart and soul in a movie about giant robots smashing through skyscrapers.

No. I didn't expect less heart and soul in transformers. Ironically, transformers had plenty of this. The witwicky family slogan of "No sacrifice No victory" is clearly and effectively expressed multiple times in the film. X-Men 3 had a couple of themes but, none of them were clearly expressed. In reality you shouldn't even be commenting on how much or how little heart and soul transformers has since you haven't seen the film.

There's also no certainty that Bay would be allowed to create an X3 movie with a runtime as long as TF,.

I totally disagree. If Fox hired Bay he would have got what he wanted. All of Bay's movies were blockbusters before Fox decided on who would direct X3. Fox would have caved in to Bay's power just like they did when hired Speilberg to direct minority report(The only other 20th century Fox sci-fi film besides X2 in the past 7 years with a running time over 2 hours.)

or that his characterisations would be any different (especially if he was working to the same script). Just because Bay can make things blow up very well... with the expert help of Spielberg, it has to be said.. does not mean he would deliver the X3 you would want.,

I never said Bay's characterizations would be better or different. I am saying that unlike Ratner he would have gotten the action right.

Where is the evidence that a further $60m was added to the budget because money was wasted on sets scrapped from the original project? What sets? Vaughn was working to a very similar script. It's quite obvious he left because he couldn't do the project (to a standard he was happy with, at a pace he was happy with) in the time available. It's a pity he left, as he did throw the production into chaos for a while --- and it didn't keep his reputation intact at all.,

Here is the link to what Laura Donner confirmed last year.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002538544

"But Vaughn's departure threw a monkey wrench into a huge $150 million production that was already stretching its resources to meet its opening date. "Then suddenly, weeks of prep time were lost," she says. "It killed us. It was an extremely desirable release date. There was no way we were going to miss that date. We had to protect it by any means possible." Go off that date and "X-Men 3" would bump into the likes of such other summer releases as Singer's own "Superman Returns" and "Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest."

Actor salaries do play a part more than in something like TF or Titanic or Narnia. Hugh Jackman must be on $20m by now, Halle and McKellen would be on $15m or more, Stewart would be well-paid also, and Kelsey Grammer would get a good salary too.

I think you totally missed my point. The point I made with Titanic and Narnia was that sometimes actor and actress salaries in a film have little effect on how great a budget can turn out. Narnia had virtually no actor/actress star power and it's budget was considerably larger than transformers. Titantic's budget was even greater than Narnia's and it had no actor/actress star power either(Leonardo D. and Kate Winslet were not A-List hollywood stars at that time.)

Now to address your point. Fox should have gotten the actors and actresses in X3 to take a pay cut in order to make a better movie. That's what Dimension Films was successfully able to do with Sin City. The budget for that film defies all logic considering some of the cast(Bruce Willis, Elijah Wood, and Benicio Del Toro). Bruce Willis's salary should have eaten up the whole budget(40million).

And Pirates didn't 'kill the X-Men franchise', it surpassed all other movie franchises financially and became a runaway success.

The point I made was it's pathetic for two franchises(one based off a toyline and one based off a ride) to destroy all of the X-Men movies individually domestically and worldwide at the boxoffice after considering the source materials of the 3 franchises.

Given the fact that Eragon and FF2 came out after X3 and both had short run-times (shorter than X3), I don't think your ranting has swayed anyone at Fox to do things differently.

That's okay. My #1 motivation for posting in here is purely for entertainment. Making fun of how bad X3 turned out is still fun after doing it for a whole year and I will continue to do it for a long time.

My #2 motivation is to tick Fox off. I know the studios monitor these forums and studio plants come here to promote their movies. What happened a week before X3 came out last year in the X-men 3 forum proved Fox was paying very close attention to watch superherohype fans thought of their movie.

The donmurphy website is another example that studio plants do exist and will go out of their way to try and silence negative movie buzz. Two of the posters in those transformers threads, who used the same exact names in the official transformers movie website forum recently admitted to being studio plants.

Ultimately it does not matter to me if I have an effect on swaying Fox because they're digging their own grave right now. They've screwed up every property right that they own right now. What franchises are they going to make money off of in the future?

 

[X-Maniac]

Laura Donner confirmed this a year ago after X-Men 3 was released. I posted a link to this information for you multiple times in the past year. This information is quite easy to find so you must not be trying at all to find it.

I don't recall your posting this multiple times. But you still didn't answer my question about how 'it's obvious that a lot of money was wasted.' (your words). Where is it obvious?

No. I want better action and explosions. Not lackluster action and explosions. The only action sequence that impressed me was the one at Jean's house and even some of those fight scenes looked silly:

Wolverine not getting a single punch in against someone who is considerably less agile than him was beyond ridiculous.

Seeing Juggernaut picking up wolverine and throwing him throw the ceiling and then immediately seeing wolverine fall throw the ceiling defied physics.

Well, I'm sure I recall you saying that the sequence with Magneto stopping the prison truck was the best action sequence of the trilogy.

Where did the action in X3 seem lacklustre? What were you wanting? Care to elaborate?

And, as for the part with Wolverine going through the ceiling, you have to remember Wolverine does have a skeleton laced with the densest material known, and unless you know the exact science of that and how it would affect the physics of that scene, then I don't see what you are twittering about. That scene didn't leap out to me as a screaming impossibility.

No. I'm not upset at all because transformers is a live action movie based on a toyline with very little source material and it ended up being 10 times more entertaining than a franchise based on 40 years of comic book history.


No. I didn't expect less heart and soul in transformers. Ironically, transformers had plenty of this. The witwicky family slogan of "No sacrifice No victory" is clearly and effectively expressed multiple times in the film. X-Men 3 had a couple of themes but, none of them were clearly expressed. In reality you shouldn't even be commenting on how much or how little heart and soul transformers has since you haven't seen the film.

Well, haven't seen the movie so i cannot comment on its entertainment value, heart and soul or themes. But the critics' reviews do not seem to agree with there being lots of heart and soul in the movie - it's described as a mindless action spectacle. Did you go into the right auditorium after you bought your ticket?

I totally disagree. If Fox hired Bay he would have got what he wanted. All of Bay's movies were blockbusters before Fox decided on who would direct X3. Fox would have caved in to Bay's power just like they did when hired Speilberg to direct minority report(The only other 20th century Fox sci-fi film besides X2 in the past 7 years with a running time over 2 hours.) I never said Bay's characterizations would be better or different. I am saying that unlike Ratner he would have gotten the action right.

All hypothetical. We'll never know.

Here is the link to what Laura Donner confirmed last year.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002538544

"But Vaughn's departure threw a monkey wrench into a huge $150 million production that was already stretching its resources to meet its opening date. "Then suddenly, weeks of prep time were lost," she says. "It killed us. It was an extremely desirable release date. There was no way we were going to miss that date. We had to protect it by any means possible." Go off that date and "X-Men 3" would bump into the likes of such other summer releases as Singer's own "Superman Returns" and "Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest."

Well, that all sounds reasonable to me. Vaughn realised he wasn't up to thje job, he walked out and left them in the crap, they had started production and contracted the actors and had to proceed. Sounds like a good business plan. Vaughn caused all that, not Fox. He shouldn't have wimped out with silly excuses about missing his family.

I think you totally missed my point. The point I made with Titanic and Narnia was that sometimes actor and actress salaries in a film have little effect on how great a budget can turn out. Narnia had virtually no actor/actress star power and it's budget was considerably larger than transformers. Titantic's budget was even greater than Narnia's and it had no actor/actress star power either(Leonardo D. and Kate Winslet were not A-List hollywood stars at that time.)

Now to address your point. Fox should have gotten the actors and actresses in X3 to take a pay cut in order to make a better movie. That's what Dimension Films was successfully able to do with Sin City. The budget for that film defies all logic considering some of the cast(Bruce Willis, Elijah Wood, and Benicio Del Toro). Bruce Willis's salary should have eaten up the whole budget(40million).

Interesting, but I'm sure once those contracts were signed, X3 had to go ahead with what was agreed before Vaughn fled. Who knows, it's all a fait accompli.

The point I made was it's pathetic for two franchises(one based off a toyline and one based off a ride) to destroy all of the X-Men movies individually domestically and worldwide at the boxoffice after considering the source materials of the 3 franchises.

I agree. As an X-Men fanatic myself, it's a pity this happened. But Pirates in particular has eclipsed most other trilogy franchises, not just X-Men. Pirates has made $2.6billion worldwide (LOTR beat it at $2.9billion). Spider-Man is the superhero exception, managing an astonishing $2.5billion (the character has been around since 1962, around the same length of time as X-Men). Superman Returns made $391m, half of what SM2 made and less than half of that the other two Spider-man movies made, and a third of what two of the Pirates movies made. Similarly for Batman Begins ($372m). And yet Superman has been around in the comics since 1938 and Batman since 1939... both have 70 YEARS of comicbook history! Yet they were also smashed by Transformers. This tells us that a summer movie audience wants big, big, spectacle and scale. I believe X3 was a good way on the road towards that, but production problems (the directorial changes etc) led to some of its epic feel being muted (no Phoenix firebird, no massive Phoenix destruction at the end, no Washington showdown).

So, it's obvious that Pirates, LoTR, Spider-Man (and other franchises like Harry Potter probably) stand well above the others. Yes, X-Men deserved to have been better, but it has been crippled from the start by various factors imposed by the studio. One day, perhaps, the X-Men will get the scale and faith they deserve.

And I'm sure there are studio bods on here. That doesn't surprise me. We did get some 'hyping' of the movie - claims that Colossus and Juggernaut fought, claims of a longer runtime. The usual stuff. Nothing unusual, sadly.

 

[Theweepeople]

I don't recall your posting this multiple times.

I'm not suprised you don't remember me posting this. You also didn't remember my initial explanation for how Xavier had enough energy at the mansion to power Cerebro so I had to explain that to you a second time. Do you want me to tell it to you a third time or do you remember?

But you still didn't answer my question about how 'it's obvious that a lot of money was wasted.' (your words). Where is it obvious?

Yes I did. Laura Donner said the budget was set at 150million and Vaughn's departure destroyed weeks of prep time where lost. Some sets were most likely destroyed(Set of mutants breaking out of prison at Al-catraz) and millions of dollars lost. The budget didn't magically jump from 150 to 210million. What is so difficult about this to understand?

Well, I'm sure I recall you saying that the sequence with Magneto stopping the prison truck was the best action sequence of the trilogy.

You are mistaken. I said that scene had some of the best effects of the trilogy. Not the best action. There's a difference. It's a shame the scene was too short like most of X3's action sequences that had good effects.

Where did the action in X3 seem lacklustre?

I stopped counting how many times you've decided to change your mind about agreeing to disagree on this subject. X3's action was lackluster to me because it was mindless.

I've reminded you of how idiotic it was for a wimpy mutant like quills to stand in front of Storm while she kicks his ass.

I've reminded you of how stupid it was for Magneto's right hand man(Pyro) to be absent from the battle at JEan's house.

I've reminded you of how idiotic it was for Arclight to stand in the way of Storm and not use her powers thereby letting Storm kick her ass.

I've told you multiple times how stupid it was for Juggernaut to throw wolverine into Jean's parents house twice after Magneto told him to keep him out.

I've told you multiple times how absurd it is for Wolverine not being able to get a single punch in considering how much more agile he is then Juggernaut.

I gave you a scientific analysis on how the velocity, force, and trajectory Juggernaut threw wolverine at made it imposslbe for Wolverine to immediately fall through a ceiling after he was thrown through one.

What in the hell were Quills and Arclight doing outside the house while Storm, Callisto, Juggernaut, and Wolverine were fighting inside? Did Alclight and Quills serve any real purpose in that scene at Jeans parents house besides being there to get their asses kicked?

Did Wolverine serve much more of a purpose in that scene at Jean's parents house besides being there to get his ass kicked by Juggernaut?

I've reminded you of how bizzare it was for the brotherhood and the X-Men to arrive at Jean's house at exactly the same time. Since Callisto could track other mutants(All of the X-Men) why not try and go to Jean's house before the X-Men got their.

I've reminded you of how Magneto's decision to let Wolverine live after he discovered their camp was beyond moronic.

I've reminded you of how Magneto's decision to raise the bridge to take his army over to Al-catraz was stupid when he could have destroyed the facility all by himself and saved his army.

I've reminded you of how Magneto's plan still doesn't make sense:

Magneto's plan: Build up an army of 100 mutants so he could waste it on trying to take out one of hundreds of mutant curing facilities? Then destroy the source of the cure but, save some of the cure to use it against the X-Men and other mutants(We are talking about a huge# as a result of Cerebro's scenes in X2) who disagreed with his political views.

I've reminded you of how stupid it was for Magneto to tell Juggernaut to kill Leech when he could have sent a faster more stealthy Callisto who knew exactly where Leech was in the building. How in the hell did Juggernaut even know where to go to find him? He already showed that he had virtually no brain functionality at Jeans parents house when he threw wolverine into the house twice.

I've reminded you of how it made no sense for Angel to appear out of nowhere to save his father.

I've reminded you of how it made no sense for Jean to take out her boyfriend, mentor, but not kill Wolverine.

I've reminded you of how it made no sense for Wolverine to kill Jean when he could have used some of the cure needles to cure her instead. That's how Beast defeated Magneto. Why couldn't Wolverine do the same?

And, as for the part with Wolverine going through the ceiling, you have to remember Wolverine does have a skeleton laced with the densest material known, and unless you know the exact science of that and how it would affect the physics of that scene, then I don't see what you are twittering about. That scene didn't leap out to me as a screaming impossibility.

It's not my fault that you don't remember my analysis. If that scene didn't bother you that's fine with me. It was still a poorly choreographed scene for me and there's nothing that will change my mind.

But the critics' reviews do not seem to agree with there being lots of heart and soul in the movie - it's described as a mindless action spectacle.

You're being dishonest hear. Some critics have said these things and others have said differently.

Did you go into the right auditorium after you bought your ticket?

Yep. I took a look at the top of the auditorim to see what movie was playing. It said Transformers so I entered.

Well, that all sounds reasonable to me.

You think that making a movie of this caliber, with 2 complex storylines, with an underfunded budget, a 103 minute running time, a rushed production schedule, and a bloated cast was reasonable for any director to make a great film?

Vaughn realised he wasn't up to thje job,.

You're right. Vaughn wasn't up to the job to be a hack like Ratner and to make a horrible comic book movie adaptation.

Vaughn caused all that, not Fox.

I agree. All of this is Vaughn's fault. None of the things I mentioned above were Fox's fault. Also, it's not Fox's fault for letting Singer go. Fox can't be blamed for not hiring Joss Whedon(Someone who actually writes X-Men comics) to direct. Fox can't be blamed for hiring two hack writers only 6 months before filming was to begin. Finally, Fox can't be blamed for hiring someone(Matthew Vaughn) to direct X3 who had not read any X-Men comics.

Superman Returns made $391m, half of what SM2 made and less than half of that the other two Spider-man movies made, and a third of what two of the Pirates movies made. Similarly for Batman Begins ($372m). And yet Superman has been around in the comics since 1938 and Batman since 1939... both have 70 YEARS of comicbook history! Yet they were also smashed by Transformers. This tells us that a summer movie audience wants big, big, spectacle and scale. I believe X3 was a good way on the road towards that, but production problems (the directorial changes etc) led to some of its epic feel being muted (no Phoenix firebird, no massive Phoenix destruction at the end, no Washington showdown).

This is not a good example. The Superman(Superman 5 wasn't even that good) and Batman franchise were both dead for a while as a result of the final movies in those franchises. I know many people who didn't bother to see Superman Returns and Batman Begins in the theater because they remember how bad the last films were. Furthermore, Pirates and Transformers were both fresh ideas and both looked very appealing.

We did get some 'hyping' of the movie - claims that Colossus and Juggernaut fought, claims of a longer runtime. The usual stuff. Nothing unusual, sadly.

We got some very unscrupulous hyping for this movie. The spoilers that showed up on comicbookmovie.com which were 95% wrong was one example. Scenes of a Colosus and Juggernaut fight being confirmed in wizard magazine is another example. Simon Kinberg telling well over 50 lies for 5 months on thexverse.com was probably the biggest insult.

 

[X-Maniac]

I'm not suprised you don't remember me posting this. You also didn't remember my initial explanation for how Xavier had enough energy at the mansion to power Cerebro so I had to explain that to you a second time. Do you want me to tell it to you a third time or do you remember?




Yes I did. Laura Donner said the budget was set at 150million and Vaughn's departure destroyed weeks of prep time where lost. Some sets were most likely destroyed(Set of mutants breaking out of prison at Al-catraz) and millions of dollars lost. The budget didn't magically jump from 150 to 210million. What is so difficult about this to understand?







You are mistaken. I said that scene had some of the best effects of the trilogy. Not the best action. There's a difference. It's a shame the scene was too short like most of X3's action sequences that had good effects.



I stopped counting how many times you've decided to change your mind about agreeing to disagree on this subject. X3's action was lackluster to me because it was mindless.

I've reminded you of how idiotic it was for a wimpy mutant like quills to stand in front of Storm while she kicks his ass.

I've reminded you of how stupid it was for Magneto's right hand man(Pyro) to be absent from the battle at JEan's house.

I've reminded you of how idiotic it was for Arclight to stand in the way of Storm and not use her powers thereby letting Storm kick her ass.

I've told you multiple times how stupid it was for Juggernaut to throw wolverine into Jean's parents house twice after Magneto told him to keep him out.

I've told you multiple times how absurd it is for Wolverine not being able to get a single punch in considering how much more agile he is then Juggernaut.

I gave you a scientific analysis on how the velocity, force, and trajectory Juggernaut threw wolverine at made it imposslbe for Wolverine to immediately fall through a ceiling after he was thrown through one.

What in the hell were Quills and Arclight doing outside the house while Storm, Callisto, Juggernaut, and Wolverine were fighting inside? Did Alclight and Quills serve any real purpose in that scene at Jeans parents house besides being there to get their asses kicked?

Did Wolverine serve much more of a purpose in that scene at Jean's parents house besides being there to get his ass kicked by Juggernaut?

I've reminded you of how bizzare it was for the brotherhood and the X-Men to arrive at Jean's house at exactly the same time. Since Callisto could track other mutants(All of the X-Men) why not try and go to Jean's house before the X-Men got their.

I've reminded you of how Magneto's decision to let Wolverine live after he discovered their camp was beyond moronic.

I've reminded you of how Magneto's decision to raise the bridge to take his army over to Al-catraz was stupid when he could have destroyed the facility all by himself and saved his army.

I've reminded you of how Magneto's plan still doesn't make sense:

Magneto's plan: Build up an army of 100 mutants so he could waste it on trying to take out one of hundreds of mutant curing facilities? Then destroy the source of the cure but, save some of the cure to use it against the X-Men and other mutants(We are talking about a huge# as a result of Cerebro's scenes in X2) who disagreed with his political views.

I've reminded you of how stupid it was for Magneto to tell Juggernaut to kill Leech when he could have sent a faster more stealthy Callisto who knew exactly where Leech was in the building. How in the hell did Juggernaut even know where to go to find him? He already showed that he had virtually no brain functionality at Jeans parents house when he threw wolverine into the house twice.

I've reminded you of how it made no sense for Angel to appear out of nowhere to save his father.

I've reminded you of how it made no sense for Jean to take out her boyfriend, mentor, but not kill Wolverine.

I've reminded you of how it made no sense for Wolverine to kill Jean when he could have used some of the cure needles to cure her instead. That's how Beast defeated Magneto. Why couldn't Wolverine do the same?



It's not my fault that you don't remember my analysis. If that scene didn't bother you that's fine with me. It was still a poorly choreographed scene for me and there's nothing that will change my mind.





You're being dishonest hear. Some critics have said these things and others have said differently.



Yep. I took a look at the top of the auditorim to see what movie was playing. It said Transformers so I entered.






You think that making a movie of this caliber, with 2 complex storylines, with an underfunded budget, a 103 minute running time, a rushed production schedule, and a bloated cast was reasonable for any director to make a great film?



You're right. Vaughn wasn't up to the job to be a hack like Ratner and to make a horrible comic book movie adaptation.



I agree. All of this is Vaughn's fault. None of the things I mentioned above were Fox's fault. Also, it's not Fox's fault for letting Singer go. Fox can't be blamed for not hiring Joss Whedon(Someone who actually writes X-Men comics) to direct. Fox can't be blamed for hiring two hack writers only 6 months before filming was to begin. Finally, Fox can't be blamed for hiring someone(Matthew Vaughn) to direct X3 who had not read any X-Men comics.








This is not a good example. The Superman(Superman 5 wasn't even that good) and Batman franchise were both dead for a while as a result of the final movies in those franchises. I know many people who didn't bother to see Superman Returns and Batman Begins in the theater because they remember how bad the last films were. Furthermore, Pirates and Transformers were both fresh ideas and both looked very appealing.





We got some very unscrupulous hyping for this movie. The spoilers that showed up on comicbookmovie.com which were 95% wrong was one example. Scenes of a Colosus and Juggernaut fight being confirmed in wizard magazine is another example. Simon Kinberg telling well over 50 lies for 5 months on thexverse.com was probably the biggest insult.

Blah, blah, no one’s listening. And I’m not going to start now.

Virtually all of this can be disregarded as irrelevant, as it doesn’t answer the point of this thread, and as I have given you the correct and proper explanations previously. So you wasted your time cutting and pasting old arguments that I dealt with months ago.

The fact remains that it is impossible to assess if Bay would have done a better X3. Transformers is not even a Fox product, so we cannot even draw comparisons about how the studio dealt with these very different movies.

Therefore, your attempt to use Transformers to criticise X3 can be dismissed.

But what TF (and other summer movies) does show is that people going to summer movies want them big, loud and fun. I’ve seen the reviews - none has mentioned this as an intelligent movie with a sense of craft or soul. You are essentially asking for the X-franchise to be turned into a skyscraper-smashing spectacle of noise and flames and cars flying all over the place. And, even if the action in TF is better, can we magically make Bay do the action or directing in X3? No. So it’s rather pointless. Like most of your threads.

However, I think Bay might do a good Superman movie if we are to move on from the morose Krypton’s Creek of SR.

 

[Theweepeople]

Blah, blah, no one’s listening.

You really are a two faced jerk X-Maniac. Now it's obvious that you never really gave a rat's ass about any of my arguments for a whole year. All you've ever wanted to do what shut me up. You asked me to elaborate knowing full well that I had answered everyone of your trivial questions multiple times and now you're trying to tell me that no one's been listening? Well you sure as hell have been and I guarantee you will continue to because you simply can't help yourself.

And I’m not going to start now.

But you did start by responding to my posts again and asking me to elaborate. Why ask questions that you're not interested in hearing the answers to?

Virtually all of this can be disregarded as irrelevant,.

Yeah. Talking about X3 in an X3 thread and an X3 forum is irrelevant. That makes perfect sense.

as it doesn’t answer the point of this thread,

This is hillarious. You're the one who got us off topic. I was actually comparing Transformers to X3 but, you wanted me to elaborate on what actions sequences in X3 that I regarded as lackluster.

and as I have given you the correct and proper explanations previously..

No you didn't. Many of your answers to my questions were irrelevant. Others were asked simply to change the subject once you realized you were losing the arguments. You also told lies to try and support some of your theories. The perfect example of this was the scene of Magneto dropping the bridge on Al-catraz where we argued about how the brotherhood were not hurt by the drop. Do you want me to post the link of this argument again to prove my claims because I have it ready? I think it would be rather embarassing for you so I might temporarily refrain but if you keep this attitude up I will expose you again.

What's really interesting about all this is when we had the week long debate I was initially minding my own business just like I was in this thread and you became confrontational with me because you were irritated with my criticisms of X3. The most hillarious thing about how the week long debate ended was in the way you simply tried to find plotholes in X2 in an X3 thread!!!! Talk about getting off topic.

So you wasted your time cutting and pasting old arguments that I dealt with months ago.

This is trivial. I don't feel like it was a waste. You just got exposed for being a hypocrite. You knew exactly what you were trying to do. You asked a question that you believed I wouldn't answer to put pressure on me so I would stop criticizing X3. In reality your initial question about asking me to elaborate was a waste of time.

Therefore, your attempt to use Transformers to criticise X3 can be dismissed.

That's called an opinion. I have a contrary one.

But what TF (and other summer movies) does show is that people going to summer movies want them big, loud and fun..

There's nothing wrong with this. The only thing X3 got right was it occasionally loud. However, it was too short to be considered big and fun.

I’ve seen the reviews - none has mentioned this as an intelligent movie with a sense of craft or soul.

I've also seen reviews that are contrary to yours. Go figure.

You are essentially asking for the X-franchise to be turned into a skyscraper-smashing spectacle of noise and flames and cars flying all over the place..

Talk about completely missing my point. I didn't ask for this to happen to the X-franchise. If Bay directed it I doubt that I would like it. However, the one thing Bay would have gotten right was the action.

And, even if the action in TF is better,.

How many Ratner films have had stunning visual action sequences in comparison to Bay's movies?

can we magically make Bay do the action or directing in X3? No.

Yep. However, the evidence speaks for itself.

So it’s rather pointless.

It's rather amusing how you all of sudden believe my threads are pointless after I continually respond to every one of your trivial and confrontational criticisms of my commentaries. If you truely think this way then why do you continually read and respond to my so-called pointless commentaries.

quote=X-Maniac;12326335]Like most of your threads.[/quote]

Excuse me? This is not my thread doofus. It was started by someone else and I merely stated on opinion. How is that pointless?

 

[Angamb]

why this has became a discussion between only you two?

 

[danoyse]

why this has became a discussion between only you two?

Because no one else cares. I have no idea what they're even talking about anymore.

I enjoyed the Transformers--more than I expected to, since I never expected to see giant versions of toys I haven't played with since the 5th grade smashing each other to pieces in all it's Michael Bay-glory, and the movie was very funny as well. This was the first time I'd ever seen Shia LeBouf in anything, and I'm now looking forward to see him in Indiana Jones next year.

Do I think Michael Bay would have made a better X-Men movie? No. His action sequences are great, but his movies tend to drown in them. I liked The Island (even though it greatly resembled a movie spoofed on MST3K) until it lapsed into a 45-minute car chase. By the time the story got back on track, I'd forgotten most of it.

I also fear a Michael Bay X-Men movie would have to include some sort of Aerosmith power-ballad, which just can't be allowed.

I'm not one of these anti-Bay snobs, because I do have fun with most of his movies, but I think the X-Men movies wouldn't have worked without the right characterization and nuances that Singer brought to the first two movies.

 

[X-Maniac]

why this has became a discussion between only you two?

Well, you started this ridiculous thread, so why not actually continue to take part in something you started?

The thread is pointless. Apples and oranges.

300 was made for $65million. Should we create a thread about how they could have made made X3 for that much?

It's all pissing in the wind. Weepeople is trying to overpower the thread with his usual brand of bitter bile, and I'm trying to add another point of view.

Since it's your thread, perhaps you would like to add something too.

 

[X-Maniac]

You really are a two faced jerk X-Maniac. Now it's obvious that you never really gave a rat's ass about any of my arguments for a whole year. All you've ever wanted to do what shut me up. You asked me to elaborate knowing full well that I had answered everyone of your trivial questions multiple times and now you're trying to tell me that no one's been listening? Well you sure as hell have been and I guarantee you will continue to because you simply can't help yourself.

Well, I would think at least no-one (else) is listening. You've become a one-trick pony. People get bored of circular arguments, repeated points and point-by-point dissections that make the thread look like the want ads in a newspaper.

I was interested in your arguments to see if they held water as something truly impossibl, but most of them amount to an obvious, politically-motivated attempt to tear the movie down. I doubt you are that bothered by the points you raise - indeed you say you do it for fun - and I really doubt you have an exact scientific analysis of why the Juggernaut/Wolverine scene defied laws of force, mass, velocity etc. If so, let's see your exact figures. And, even then, it doesn't really matter.

No you didn't. Many of your answers to my questions were irrelevant. Others were asked simply to change the subject once you realized you were losing the arguments. You also told lies to try and support some of your theories. The perfect example of this was the scene of Magneto dropping the bridge on Al-catraz where we argued about how the brotherhood were not hurt by the drop. Do you want me to post the link of this argument again to prove my claims because I have it ready? I think it would be rather embarassing for you so I might temporarily refrain but if you keep this attitude up I will expose you again.

It doesn't matter. The Brotherhood could have been protected by Magneto or Jean, all that matter is that a logical explanation exists, not whether we saw it or not on screen. I remember full well what I said. And it still stands now.

What's really interesting about all this is when we had the week long debate I was initially minding my own business just like I was in this thread and you became confrontational with me because you were irritated with my criticisms of X3. The most hillarious thing about how the week long debate ended was in the way you simply tried to find plotholes in X2 in an X3 thread!!!! Talk about getting off topic.

It was to prove all movies have plotholes or things that are not conspicuously explained. They are not specific to X3. You are not focusing on X3 in any natural, casual way; you are deliberately searching for things to pick on, and that is your problem and why you won't be taken seriously. What you say reflects on you and not on the movie.

This is trivial. I don't feel like it was a waste. You just got exposed for being a hypocrite. You knew exactly what you were trying to do. You asked a question that you believed I wouldn't answer to put pressure on me so I would stop criticizing X3. In reality your initial question about asking me to elaborate was a waste of time.

I asked where the action was 'lacklustre'. You responded with an irrelevant list of particular tiny parts of things you didn't like. But that didn't answer the question. The Jean/Xavier fight, the Magneto vs prison trucks, the Magneto vs bridge, the Phoenix destruction - none of that can really be described as 'lacklustre.' You were talking tiny irrelevancies not about the action scenes.

Talk about completely missing my point. I didn't ask for this to happen to the X-franchise. If Bay directed it I doubt that I would like it. However, the one thing Bay would have gotten right was the action.

That's hypothetical at the end of the day. And if you'd been given an X3 with Bay-style action (based on what we saw in Island and what is apparently in TF), then by your own admission you still wouldn't be happy. So it's all just irrelevant. Either way, you lose.

How many Ratner films have had stunning visual action sequences in comparison to Bay's movies?

I'm not a filmy type and don't know Ratner's movies well at all. I can't really answer this fairly.

It's rather amusing how you all of sudden believe my threads are pointless after I continually respond to every one of your trivial and confrontational criticisms of my commentaries. If you truely think this way then why do you continually read and respond to my so-called pointless commentaries.

Because you try to drown this forum in silliness and nastiness, and we really can't have that, can we? Because of people like you, many respectable and reasonable people have given up coming here.

 

[TKing]

Well, you started this ridiculous thread, so why not actually continue to take part in something you started?

The thread is pointless. Apples and oranges.

X-Maniac, please. I generally agree with everything you say, but don't post in a thread which you find "pointless".

 

[Angamb]

Well, you started this ridiculous thread, so why not actually continue to take part in something you started?

The thread is pointless. Apples and oranges.

Yes, you're right, this thread is ridiculous........................

Because no one else cares. I have no idea what they're even talking about anymore.

Me either, I started reading a bit, but now... better no.

Do I think Michael Bay would have made a better X-Men movie? No. His action sequences are great, but his movies tend to drown in them.

I'm not sure at all, I mean, Transformers was a good movie... don't know, and X3 wasn't a big thing, so who knows?

I also fear a Michael Bay X-Men movie would have to include some sort of Aerosmith power-ballad, which just can't be allowed.

Haha, good point there, hehe.

 

[X-Maniac]

X-Maniac, please. I generally agree with everything you say, but don't post in a thread which you find "pointless".

Sorry, i was feeling abrasive at the time... BUT although this thread is, in some ways, interesting, it is also sort of irrelevant. We don't have a Bay version of X3 to compare the existing X3 with, so all arguments are hypothetical and cannot be proven.

I don't think giant robots belonged in X3 really. When I see TF, i can say if i like the way the action meshes with the story...but it would still be hard to imagine how all that might translate across into an X3.

 

[TKing]

^I agree that witnessing a comparison between X3 and every comic book film is starting to wear on me, but still, I think Angamb was trying to focus on the "epic" scope of Transformers.

Action that really takes you into the moment, looks believable (whilst still retaining its unbelievability and magnificence), action that intertwines with the story (rather than a 10-minute filler to prolong the running time).

X3 was great, could have been much better, but I'm pleased with what we got. And I personally don't care if each and every comic book film to follow in the next few years are ten times better than X3 (bearing in mind those films can improve on previous comic book films' mistakes).

I love the X-Men franchise, X3 is easily my favourite. It might not be the best film ever made, but it's an exciting, heartmoving enstalment and (I feel) shouldn't be panned as much as some *****y fan boys do.

 

[Angamb]

I said the reasons for this thread, but I see some have forgotten...

The main reason is: The giant robots, as a menace, inevitably, x-men fans will think about the centinels, at least, I did it and couldn't stop thinking about the x-men while I was seeing Transformers.

Then, the budgets of both movies. Many times I read that the centinels, and other things were removed from the movies because of money, but now we can see that it can be done perfectly, without much money. And I posted the budget of both movies, and there is a difference. Why? we can't know it at all.... because big name actors in the xfranchise? not sure, really, in fact, I don't think that's the problem.

And finally, yes, the epic feel in Transformers, the really big action... that wasn't as big in X3, being the third film of the franchise, and the Phoenix saga, one of the plots.

These are the reasons. I don't think we have to create a new thread for each new film, definetly no. But I found this as an interesting debate. And as we can see, it has create it, so, don't think is a pointless thread, as certain users say (is curious they are always the same, don't you think? but anyway, we only have to ignore them, and continue with our threads).

 

[Theweepeople]

It might not be the best film ever made, but it's an exciting, heartmoving enstalment and (I feel) shouldn't be panned as much as some *****y fan boys do.

This is the attitude that really bothers me about some people who love the film. You're asking for a fight when you say rude and idiotic things like this. Why do you take my hate and other fan boys hate of X3 so personally? I don't have anything against the people who love X3. You have every right to praise this film and I respect that. I don't respect the fact that you won't show the same respect for the fan boys who have an opposing viewpoint.

It's obvious that many of the X3 lovers feel like an attack on the movie is an attack on them personally. That's very bizzare and disturbing. If you're incapable of behaving like a mature human being after reading the commentaries of people who dislike X3 then you should put these people on your ignore list.

 

[Theweepeople]

These are the reasons. I don't think we have to create a new thread for each new film, definetly no. But I found this as an interesting debate. And as we can see, it has create it, so, don't think is a pointless thread, as certain users say (is curious they are always the same, don't you think? but anyway, we only have to ignore them, and continue with our threads).

I think the one thing we can all agree on is it is pointless for X-Maniac to post in this thread because he hasn't even seem Transformers yet.

 

[danoyse]

I think the one thing we can all agree on is it is pointless for X-Maniac to post in this thread because he hasn't even seem Transformers yet.

Weren't you bashing FF2 all over the Fantastic 4 boards without seeing the movie???

 

[TKing]

This is the attitude that really bothers me about some people who love the film. You're asking for a fight when you say rude and idiotic things like this. Why do you take my hate and other fan boys hate of X3 so personally? I don't have anything against the people who love X3. You have every right to praise this film and I respect that. I don't respect the fact that you won't show the same respect for the fan boys who have an opposing viewpoint.

It's obvious that many of the X3 lovers feel like an attack on the movie is an attack on them personally. That's very bizzare and disturbing. If you're incapable of behaving like a mature human being after reading the commentaries of people who dislike X3 then you should put these people on your ignore list.

I didn't say I dislike people, such as yourself, who are against X3. I just oppose to several of your views.

What I do dislike is when fanboys unfairly bash X3 because: a) they're bored perhaps; b) they feel personally hurt that the studios didn't deliver what they wanted or c) they just want to *****.

I'm glad as always that we have can these discussions (the positive/not so positive parts of X3, of the entire franchise). Dicuss what the studios could improve on, leave out, change dramatically next time etc.

But when fanboys start to nitpick about every damn bit of detail because their favourite character got axed, or because they didn't get enough screentime, is (in my view) very childish behaviour.

 

[danoyse]

^I agree that witnessing a comparison between X3 and every comic book film is starting to wear on me, but still, I think Angamb was trying to focus on the "epic" scope of Transformers.

I think so too, and I don't think this is a pointless thread. Pointless would be to let every discussion sink into another endless debate of over every piece of minutiae from a movie that's now making the rounds on cable, which they're just never going to agree on.

But it's interesting to take a current film and compare it to what went right/wrong in X3. It's a good topic.

While I wouldn't put Transformers on the "epic" scale (they're toys, for god's sake--but incredibly enjoyable nevertheless), I would think that it was far more off the charts as far as the action and fun. They knew exactly who their audience was, and just maxed out on everything they could have wanted it from it.

They way I would compare it as far as action: X3 was like getting the 30-second sample on iTunes. Transformers was like getting the rest of the song.

 

[X-Maniac]

I think so too, and I don't think this is a pointless thread. Pointless would be to let every discussion sink into another endless debate of over every piece of minutiae from a movie that's now making the rounds on cable, which they're just never going to agree on.

But it's interesting to take a current film and compare it to what went right/wrong in X3. It's a good topic.

While I wouldn't put Transformers on the "epic" scale (they're toys, for god's sake--but incredibly enjoyable nevertheless), I would think that it was far more off the charts as far as the action and fun. They knew exactly who their audience was, and just maxed out on everything they could have wanted it from it.

They way I would compare it as far as action: X3 was like getting the 30-second sample on iTunes. Transformers was like getting the rest of the song.

Okay... but what about the previous X-movies too? Do any of the X-movies go 'off the charts' with action? Was there a situation in which any of the X-movies could go off the charts? With multiple mutant characters to service (human mutants, not gigantic robots who automatically seem impressive), a detailed story and the need for human moments, there is limited scope for going crazy with wild action sequences. Except perhaps at the end of X3 if they'd had the budget to have Phoenix parting the waters of the bay and nuking San Francisco (if that was ever part of the actual script.. all we've seen is some visuals, we don't know if/when they were really part of the story).

Are you sure you are not just merely impressed by the robots?

X-Men is about human characters with mutant powers - those are the main sci-fi beings, not giant robots. Even if they'd included Sentinels in X2 or even X3 (excluding the disappointing Sentinel in the DR), there wouldn't be the action that is apparently in TF. It would be a few scenes of smaller robots versus some mutants.

If you replaced all the X-Men with giant robots having similar powers, you might have something that would begin to resemble TF. Do you see what I mean? X-Men isn't about giant transforming robots that are immediately going to have a massive wow factor of scale and sc-fi impressiveness.

 

[danoyse]

Okay... but what about the previous X-movies too? Do any of the X-movies go 'off the charts' with action? Was there a situation in which any of the X-movies could go off the charts? With multiple mutant characters to service (human mutants, not gigantic robots who automatically seem impressive), a detailed story and the need for human moments, there is limited scope for going crazy with wild action sequences. Except perhaps at the end of X3 if they'd had the budget to have Phoenix parting the waters of the bay and nuking San Francisco (if that was ever part of the actual script.. all we've seen is some visuals, we don't know if/when they were really part of the story).

Are you sure you are not just merely impressed by the robots?

X-Men is about human characters with mutant powers - those are the main sci-fi beings, not giant robots. Even if they'd included Sentinels in X2 or even X3 (excluding the disappointing Sentinel in the DR), there wouldn't be the action that is apparently in TF. It would be a few scenes of smaller robots versus some mutants.

If you replaced all the X-Men with giant robots having similar powers, you might have something that would begin to resemble TF. Do you see what I mean? X-Men isn't about giant transforming robots that are immediately going to have a massive wow factor of scale and sc-fi impressiveness.

You're completely missing the point. Again, it would help if you'd actually seen this movie to really understand what we're all talking about. (it's not terrible, it has an X-Men joke )

I don't think that the robots were so cool that an X-Men movie would actually benefit from having a few visually impressive robots smashing each other around in their own movie. I'm not saying the X-Men movies need to forego characterization and storytelling for the sake of cool-looking robots. That's ridiculous.

I didn't want X3 to end with a 20-minute smashfest. But when I went to see a movie about giant transforming battling robots, I got what was advertised and I left impressed. And I'm not even a Transformers fan.

By comparison...X3 was too short. It had a great battle sequence at the end, but it was again, too short. When they tell you it's the "last stand," it better be more than a barely 15-minute fight. And I liked X3 fine, but by comparison (which is what we're doing here, since most of us have actually seen both movies), it missed a lot of potential.

There's nothing wrong with wanting an epic action finale...it can be done without sacrificing the character or story, in fact, it makes it even better. Return of the King did it. The maelstrom sequence at the end of Pirates 3 did it. I was up until 3am finishing the new Harry Potter book last week and I don't think I breathed for the last 300 pages because I was so emotionally invested in everything that was going on.

The X-Men have so much potential for a giant epic sequence like that, for the finale that it had, it could have been even better. Again, I loved the movie anyway...but there was potential for more when you see how other series are wrapping things up.

 

[Theweepeople]

Weren't you bashing FF2 all over the Fantastic 4 boards without seeing the movie???

For your information I didn't even spend that much time at the FF2 forum. I haven't posted a single message in any threads in a month. I will admit that the mods and I came to an agreement that I should stay away from one of the threads because too many people were offended by what I was saying. What's hillarious is inspite of my depature the thread(Box office one) I was posting in is still a chaotic mess a month later. People are constantly insulting each other, going off topic, and coming up with some of the most moronic explanations for why FF2's box office gross was so dissapointing. I have no regret for leaving that silly thread a month ago and have been getting a great laugh from reading most of the commentaries. However, pretty soon I will post one more message there. I made a prediction that FF2 would make 125-130million and all the haters mocked me. Looks like my prediction was spot on.t:

 

[danoyse]

For your information I didn't even spend that much time at the FF2 forum. I haven't posted a single message in any threads in a month. I will admit that the mods and I came to an agreement that I should stay away from one of the threads because too many people were offended by what I was saying. What's hillarious is inspite of my depature the thread(Box office one) I was posting in is still a chaotic mess a month later. People are constantly insulting each other, going off topic, and coming up with some of the most moronic explanations for why FF2's box office gross was so dissapointing. I have no regret for leaving that silly thread a month ago and have been getting a great laugh from reading most of the commentaries. However, pretty soon I will post one more message there. I made a prediction that FF2 would make 125-130million and all the haters mocked me. Looks like my prediction was spot on.t:

Yeah, but you still haven't actually seen FF2, have you? That was my question.