Transformers/The Last Stand: The inevitable comparison

Yeah, but you still haven't actually seen FF2, have you? That was my question.

No I haven't and I won't be spending any money on that piece of garbage. If one of my friends gets the DVD I will borrow it. However, this is very unlikely because all of my friends told me it was a waste of time and money. I'll probably ended up watching it for the first time once it airs on FX a few years from now.
 
No I haven't and I won't be spending any money on that piece of garbage. If one of my friends gets the DVD I will borrow it. However, this is very unlikely because all of my friends told me it was a waste of time and money. I'll probably ended up watching it for the first time once it airs on FX a few years from now.

Well, then you probably shouldn't be telling the someone that it's pointless to post in a thread when he hasn't seen the movie, when you're kinda doing the same thing in another thread.

Just sayin'. :oldrazz:
 
Well, then you probably shouldn't be telling the someone that it's pointless to post in a thread when he hasn't seen the movie, when you're kinda doing the same thing in another thread.

Just sayin'. :oldrazz:

Whatever. First of all I'm not doing the same thing in another thread. I'm, not posting in a thread that I call pointless. Secondly, you completely misinterpreted what I said. I wouldn't have suggested for X-Maniac to stop posting in here if he hadn't called it pointless. There's nothing hypocritical about what I said. In reality I have no problem with anyone posting commentaries in the threads of films that they have not seen. It's funny how many times you've gone out of your way to try(emphasis on try) to make me look foolish.
 
Well, I would think at least no-one (else) is listening. You've become a one-trick pony. People get bored of circular arguments, repeated points and point-by-point dissections that make the thread look like the want ads in a newspaper.

People also get bored of people like you who constantly try to trivialize opinions that are different from yours.

I was interested in your arguments to see if they held water as something truly impossibl, but most of them amount to an obvious, politically-motivated attempt to tear the movie down.

Of course this is partially political. Fox made the production of X3 political by not giving Singer what he wanted, firing Singer, and then deciding at the last moment to make the damn movie so it could compete against Singers. However, this is also personal and for good reason to. Fox spent a whole year lying to people about what would be in X3 and I will never forget that.

I doubt you are that bothered by the points you raise.

You're not a mind reader.

- indeed you say you do it for fun .

Of course I do this partially for fun.

- - and I really doubt you have an exact scientific analysis of why the Juggernaut/Wolverine scene defied laws of force, mass, velocity etc. If so, let's see your exact figures.

I can't give you exact figures but, I did post estimates before that were determined by how fast Wolverine appeared to move when Juggernaut threw him. The ultimate factor in that original analysis is time. After considering how far juggernaut kicked wolverine outside of the house and how violently Wolverine actually deflected off part of the door after getting kicked it's easy to understand why the previous scene of Wolverine falling through the ceiling immediately after being thrown
throught it doesn't make sense. Juggernaut's immense strength would have sent wolverine high into the air above the ceiling. Wolverine would have had to reach the apex of his ascension before he would start to fall. If Juggernaut threw Wolverine threw the ceiling at a rate of 20 to 30mph how in the hell is Wolverine going to start falling back towards the other ceiling in a half a second without an equal and opposite force sending him in the other direction.


The question you should be asking yourself is what caused Wolverine to fall immediately after going through the ceiling with a force powerful enough to break it. Try and answer that logically.

- And, even then, it doesn't really matter.

Another example of this two faced attitude that you commonly display. This is why I won't bother explaining anything to you ever again in great detail because you simply don't care.




- It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter that you lied?

- The Brotherhood could have been protected by Magneto or Jean.

Based on what? You weren't able to come up with a single logical theory for how Magneto was able to protect the brotherhood. The one theory you came up with for Jean didn't correlate with her attitude among the brotherhood. What did Magneto say to convince her to protect the brotherhood at the bridge? If Magneto did say something then don't you think it was important for his comments to actually be in the movie so we would understand why Jean would follow an order of his? Are you telling me that all of a sudden she randomly decided to protect them without any instigation?

Your theory is still bogus now just like it was 10 months ago because in X3 Jean didn't follow a single command of Magneto that involved protecting the brotherhood.


- , all that matter is that a logical explanation exists, not whether we saw it or not on screen.

This is a classic post from you considering how many times you told me you were convinced an event didn't take place simply because you didn't see it happen on screen. There's a big difference between logical rationalization and warped fantasizing.

- I remember full well what I said.

Well, it seems that you still forgot that you lied twice. Once when you said the brotherhood moved to the back of the bridge when it dropped. Twice when you said the front part of the bridge dropped when the whole thing dropped at once.

And it still stands now.

What stands is that you told two lies.




It was to prove all movies have plotholes or things that are not conspicuously explained.

All of us posting in those threads that you tried to hijack knew this. You did this to take the focus away from criticizing X-Men 3. If you wanted to criticize X-Men 1, X-Men 2, Superman Returns, Spiderman 1, Spiderman 2, and Batman Begins you were more than welcome to in other forums not called X-Men 3.


They are not specific to X3. You are not focusing on X3 in any natural, casual way; you are deliberately searching for things to pick on, and that is your problem and why you won't be taken seriously. What you say reflects on you and not on the movie.




I asked where the action was 'lacklustre'. You responded with an irrelevant list of particular tiny parts of things you didn't like. But that didn't answer the question.

Your question didn't sound very specific. More like an overview of what multiple action sequences I didn't like in X3. Try being more specific next time.

The Jean/Xavier fight, the Magneto vs prison trucks, the Magneto vs bridge, the Phoenix destruction

The only one of these questions that you asked me a few posts back was the Magneto vs. prison trucks one and I already told you it was too short. That's one of the main problems I have with X3's action sequences. Magneto vs. bridge looked nice visually but, it wasn't that long and it wasn't even that exciting. The phoenix destuction had amazing visuals but, it was also too short. The Jean/Xavier fight was good but, it was also frustrating because it had the potential to be so much more. I wanted to see them battling each other on the astro-plane. That would have turned a good action sequence into an epic one.

You were talking tiny irrelevancies not about the action scenes.

You're right. Quills and arclight getting beaten up in an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

Pyro's strange absence from an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

Juggernaut throwing wolverine into Jean's house twice in an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

The X-Men and brotherhood showing up at Jean's house during the prelude to an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

Magneto's decision to let Wolverine live after kicking his butt in an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

Magneto's bizzare plans revealed during the action scenes at golden gate bridge and battle at al-catraz has nothing to do with action scenes.

Magneto's weird decision to send Juggernaut after leech instead of Callisto during the al-catraz action scenes have nothing to do with action scenes.

Angel's strange appearance during the action scenes at al-catraz had nothing to do with a action scenes.


Wolverines bizzare decision to kill Jean during the phoenix destruction action scene had nothing to do with an action scene.

Thanks for the laugh X-Maniac.:oldrazz:




That's hypothetical at the end of the day. And if you'd been given an X3 with Bay-style action (based on what we saw in Island and what is apparently in TF), then by your own admission you still wouldn't be happy. So it's all just irrelevant. Either way, you lose.

No it is not hypothetical. At least with a Bay X-Men film I could say that I was entertained by the action. I was not entertained at all by X-Men 3.





Because you try to drown this forum in silliness and nastiness, and we really can't have that, can we?

All I did was make a comparison between X-MEn 3 and Transformers hence the title of this thread. I was just minding my own business before you showed up and chose to get confrontational with me like you always do.


Because of people like you, many respectable and reasonable people have given up coming here.

lol. What respectable and reasonable people have given up coming here because of people like me? I can think of many rude and vicious X3 posters that decided to leave because I wouldn't back down from their criticisms. This is all hypothetical of course but, after reflecting on how you acted like a pompous jerk last summer towards anyone who disliked X3 do you think it's possible that some respectable and reasonable people gave up coming in this forum because of you?:cwink:
 
You're completely missing the point. Again, it would help if you'd actually seen this movie to really understand what we're all talking about. (it's not terrible, it has an X-Men joke :oldrazz: )

I don't think that the robots were so cool that an X-Men movie would actually benefit from having a few visually impressive robots smashing each other around in their own movie. I'm not saying the X-Men movies need to forego characterization and storytelling for the sake of cool-looking robots. That's ridiculous.

I didn't want X3 to end with a 20-minute smashfest. But when I went to see a movie about giant transforming battling robots, I got what was advertised and I left impressed. And I'm not even a Transformers fan.

By comparison...X3 was too short. It had a great battle sequence at the end, but it was again, too short. When they tell you it's the "last stand," it better be more than a barely 15-minute fight. And I liked X3 fine, but by comparison (which is what we're doing here, since most of us have actually seen both movies), it missed a lot of potential.

There's nothing wrong with wanting an epic action finale...it can be done without sacrificing the character or story, in fact, it makes it even better. Return of the King did it. The maelstrom sequence at the end of Pirates 3 did it. I was up until 3am finishing the new Harry Potter book last week and I don't think I breathed for the last 300 pages because I was so emotionally invested in everything that was going on.

The X-Men have so much potential for a giant epic sequence like that, for the finale that it had, it could have been even better. Again, I loved the movie anyway...but there was potential for more when you see how other series are wrapping things up.

That makes more sense, more than your earlier post. I see where you are coming from.

I can’t comment on Pirates 3 or TF compared with X3 except to say those films sound like they were on a grander scale all-round. I don’t go to see every movie - I don’t get sucked in by hype (have successfully avoided Harry Potter...the one movie i caught on a cable channel, Chamber of Secrets, was very poor) and don’t rush to see every film that’s released (which you seem to do!) and I don’t know anyone else who does. Most people’s tastes are specific, or they can’t be bothered to go, or don’t have time (I often don’t have time when i get home and have a three-hour gap before bedtime!) or they wait for the DVD rather than pay for several cinema tickets for a family day out that costs more than the DVD! I am intrigued by TF, but the basic idea doesn’t thrill me as much as super-powered people might do!

Going back to X3’s climax, it would have been grander if we’d seen Phoenix blasting SF and parting the waters of the bay and Storm doing more...but...we didn’t...and I don’t know if we ever would have done.... Which is why this thead seems pointless - we aren’t suddenly going to get all that magically added to X3. We got what we got. I guess this all reflects on Fox, especially given the similar anti-climactic ending of FF2. Shame. Something’s going wrong somewhere.

Edit: Having said all that, I don't think any movie in a comparable genre - comicbook-derived human beings with enhanced abilities - has had that much of an amazing climax. I don't recall lasting and spectacular climaxes in any superhero movie - Batman vs Ra's and the train was very good and suspenseful, SM3's Spider-Man and New Goblin vs Sandman was pretty good too. But none was 'off the charts.'
 
That makes more sense, more than your earlier post. I see where you are coming from.

I can’t comment on Pirates 3 or TF compared with X3 except to say those films sound like they were on a grander scale all-round. I don’t go to see every movie - I don’t get sucked in by hype (have successfully avoided Harry Potter...the one movie i caught on a cable channel, Chamber of Secrets, was very poor) and don’t rush to see every film that’s released (which you seem to do!) and I don’t know anyone else who does. Most people’s tastes are specific, or they can’t be bothered to go, or don’t have time (I often don’t have time when i get home and have a three-hour gap before bedtime!) or they wait for the DVD rather than pay for several cinema tickets for a family day out that costs more than the DVD! I am intrigued by TF, but the basic idea doesn’t thrill me as much as super-powered people might do!

Glad we cleared that up. :woot:

Yes, I love summer movie season...I've been pretty much off and running since Spiderman 3 opened. As far as Harry Potter, I wouldn't call myself sucked into hype, since I was introduced to the books through a publishing friend right before the craze really took off, and I've been a fan ever since. As far as the hype...the fans do geniunely want to read the book. I don't think people are devouring a 759-page book in the middle of the summer just because it's cool.

Considering how many three-quels we've had this year, it's fair to compare to X-Men's third film compared to the other 3s. Transformers obviously isn't a 3rd film, but it gets basically the same audience that the X-movies get, so the comparisons are inevitable.
 
Transformers obviously isn't a 3rd film, but it gets basically the same audience that the X-movies get, so the comparisons are inevitable.

I wouldn't say it's exactly the same audience. Based on the experiences of people around me, it's quite a different audience. The only person I know who is going to see TF has a very young son who loves the Transformers because of the currently-airing animated series on TV in the UK. I know a fanatical comicbook collector at work (who spends a fortune on DC and Marvel titles every month) and he doesn't want to go to see TF, nor Potter for that matter. I know a 'pop culture' enthusiast who isn't going to see TF, though she did go to see Shrek. All these people went to see X-Men.

TF is meant as a fun summer blockbuster, like Pirates but with robots instead of seafarers. Any intelligence it DOES have is pure coincidence and by virtue of the fact that a story has to tie all the action together. TF is also very much a kids' movie, as is Potter.

I created a thread for X3 vs FF2 because they are from the same studio and it was interesting to see if Fox had taken on board any of the criticisms of its moviemaking processes made because of X3. (It doesn't seem to have listened at all, in fact FF2 was even shorter). That seems to be a valid comparison to see if there had been any change in Fox 'policy.' It doesn't feel as good a comparison to put X3 against a fun blockbuster with Spielberg as executive producer. If we got a load of Z-list actors in X-Men, and Spielberg as second in command, I'm sure the money left for action sequences and CGI spectacles would be fantastic. Let's see Bay do an X-movie then, let him have a crack at it, hopefully with Spielberg as part of the deal.
 
Of course this is partially political. Fox made the production of X3 political by not giving Singer what he wanted, firing Singer, and then deciding at the last moment to make the damn movie so it could compete against Singers. However, this is also personal and for good reason to. Fox spent a whole year lying to people about what would be in X3 and I will never forget that.

Did they fire Singer? I thought he walked away and signed up for SR after he and Fox were in some kind of deadlock over money. It's said he wanted $50m and they wouldn't give it to him. Who are you to decide if Fox was right in giving, or not giving, Singer what he wanted? That's not a decision for you to make. Also, I thought you only discovered this forum after the release of X3 and had known nothing about the events in the lead-up the movie before you came here. The amount of bitterness you have is peculiar for someone who is simply a casual moviegoer who didn't like the film. There is something more going on - i wouldn't be surprised if there is a closer connection to all this than you care to admit. A normal moviegoer or film enthusiast would not be as personally offended and embittered over X3 as you are.


I can't give you exact figures but, I did post estimates before that were determined by how fast Wolverine appeared to move when Juggernaut threw him. The ultimate factor in that original analysis is time. After considering how far juggernaut kicked wolverine outside of the house and how violently Wolverine actually deflected off part of the door after getting kicked it's easy to understand why the previous scene of Wolverine falling through the ceiling immediately after being thrown
throught it doesn't make sense. Juggernaut's immense strength would have sent wolverine high into the air above the ceiling. Wolverine would have had to reach the apex of his ascension before he would start to fall. If Juggernaut threw Wolverine threw the ceiling at a rate of 20 to 30mph how in the hell is Wolverine going to start falling back towards the other ceiling in a half a second without an equal and opposite force sending him in the other direction.

The question you should be asking yourself is what caused Wolverine to fall immediately after going through the ceiling with a force powerful enough to break it. Try and answer that logically.

Well, I can tell you in all honesty that the scene you mention did not bother me, and I've never heard anyone other than you going on about it.

While mentioning force/trajectory/velocity, I do remember feeling bothered about the jet scenes in X2 and SR when the people inside the planes were not injured by the aircraft being suddenly stopped at high speed by Magneto and Superman respectively. All that is aside from Lois not having any sign of injury despite being flung around like a rag doll. And of course those on the X-jet did nothing as their plane hurtled to the ground. Those scenes did bother me.

But, back to your point on Wolverine, we'd have to analyse the exact nature of the kick given by Juggernaut. For instance, soccer kicks vary greatly - the ball goes in many directions during multiple attempts by the same person in a penalty shoot-out when aiming for the goal. Then you'd have to factor in Wolverine's adamantium skeleton - the metal is the densest material known.

And, regardless of that, i still thought the scene worked and have never heard anyone complain about it. Considering we can't know the exact science of the fictional adamantium etc, it's all a moot point anyway.



Based on what? You weren't able to come up with a single logical theory for how Magneto was able to protect the brotherhood. The one theory you came up with for Jean didn't correlate with her attitude among the brotherhood. What did Magneto say to convince her to protect the brotherhood at the bridge? If Magneto did say something then don't you think it was important for his comments to actually be in the movie so we would understand why Jean would follow an order of his? Are you telling me that all of a sudden she randomly decided to protect them without any instigation?

Your theory is still bogus now just like it was 10 months ago because in X3 Jean didn't follow a single command of Magneto that involved protecting the brotherhood.

In a deleted scene, Jean shows concern for a scared girl trapped in a vehicle on the bridge. If she is concerned for the safety of anyone on the bridge, she might well have telekinetically protected everyone from falling when the bridge was lowered.

Alternatively, Magneto might have protected them. He is shown in Jean's house anchoring himself solidly to the floor against the whirling mayhem, so he quite capable of doing so, especially if he could extend the magnetic field over a wider area.

Or it may be that they all fell over and you aren't expected to carry out a year-long autopsy on the scene. Take your pick.

In the novelisation, if i recall correctly, everyone does fall over, except for Jean and Magneto, who anchor themselves against the impact.

So, the possibilities are there: Jean or Magneto protected everyone, or they didn't and eeryone fell over and you are expected not to develop a neurotic fixation over it.



This is a classic post from you considering how many times you told me you were convinced an event didn't take place simply because you didn't see it happen on screen. There's a big difference between logical rationalization and warped fantasizing.

And there is a larger difference between logical rationalisation (with acceptance of possibilities) and your neurotic attempt to find something wrong with everything. No one else goes to your lengths, though people often discuss possibilities, so you're very much the lone voice.


Well, it seems that you still forgot that you lied twice. Once when you said the brotherhood moved to the back of the bridge when it dropped. Twice when you said the front part of the bridge dropped when the whole thing dropped at once.

What stands is that you told two lies.

I didn't lie at all, I mentioned possible explanations that seemed reasonable.


The only one of these questions that you asked me a few posts back was the Magneto vs. prison trucks one and I already told you it was too short. That's one of the main problems I have with X3's action sequences. Magneto vs. bridge looked nice visually but, it wasn't that long and it wasn't even that exciting. The phoenix destuction had amazing visuals but, it was also too short. The Jean/Xavier fight was good but, it was also frustrating because it had the potential to be so much more. I wanted to see them battling each other on the astro-plane. That would have turned a good action sequence into an epic one.

Well, in my view, the trucks scene wasn't too short (there is an aspect of it that I don't like though), neither was the bridge scene. As you say, the bridge scene isn't that exciting, so it didn't need to be longer as there's not a lot more that could be done to make a moving bridge look dazzling... unless perhaps they did add a scene of Jean or Magneto protecting everyone when it was lowered. Or perhaps a scene of Jean obviously gesturing to help Magneto to move it or steady it (which she does do in the novelisation). The astral plane might have been good, I agree, though it depends on how it was shown. It might have seemed confusing or distracting - the psychic voices were removed as it was...but the fact that those were recorded does show they were thinking of a more obvious psychic battle.


You're right. Quills and arclight getting beaten up in an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

Pyro's strange absence from an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

Juggernaut throwing wolverine into Jean's house twice in an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

The X-Men and brotherhood showing up at Jean's house during the prelude to an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

Magneto's decision to let Wolverine live after kicking his butt in an action scene has nothing to do with an action scene.

Magneto's bizzare plans revealed during the action scenes at golden gate bridge and battle at al-catraz has nothing to do with action scenes.

Magneto's weird decision to send Juggernaut after leech instead of Callisto during the al-catraz action scenes have nothing to do with action scenes.

Angel's strange appearance during the action scenes at al-catraz had nothing to do with a action scenes.


Wolverines bizzare decision to kill Jean during the phoenix destruction action scene had nothing to do with an action scene.

Thanks for the laugh X-Maniac.:oldrazz:

Quills and Arclight were unconscious on the lawn from Storm's tornado kicks. Pyro was off on a mission sniffing around the cure clinics, ready to blow one up. Arclight's power - as seen when she does use it at Alcatraz - shatters inorganic materials, so not much good against Storm. Juggernaut is a dumb dolt... I saw it that he just reacted instinctively (and with the usual unthinking, brute force) to Wolverine's attack and the momentum took Wolverine into the house. He DID try to get Wolverine out of the house afterwards.
 
I wouldn't say it's exactly the same audience. Based on the experiences of people around me, it's quite a different audience. The only person I know who is going to see TF has a very young son who loves the Transformers because of the currently-airing animated series on TV in the UK. I know a fanatical comicbook collector at work (who spends a fortune on DC and Marvel titles every month) and he doesn't want to go to see TF, nor Potter for that matter. I know a 'pop culture' enthusiast who isn't going to see TF, though she did go to see Shrek. All these people went to see X-Men.

TF is meant as a fun summer blockbuster, like Pirates but with robots instead of seafarers. Any intelligence it DOES have is pure coincidence and by virtue of the fact that a story has to tie all the action together. TF is also very much a kids' movie, as is Potter.

I created a thread for X3 vs FF2 because they are from the same studio and it was interesting to see if Fox had taken on board any of the criticisms of its moviemaking processes made because of X3. (It doesn't seem to have listened at all, in fact FF2 was even shorter). That seems to be a valid comparison to see if there had been any change in Fox 'policy.' It doesn't feel as good a comparison to put X3 against a fun blockbuster with Spielberg as executive producer. If we got a load of Z-list actors in X-Men, and Spielberg as second in command, I'm sure the money left for action sequences and CGI spectacles would be fantastic. Let's see Bay do an X-movie then, let him have a crack at it, hopefully with Spielberg as part of the deal.

Again, writing off movies you haven't actually seen as "intelligent by coincidence" or merely hyped kids stuff isn't really helping your case here. I know plenty of people who've seen Tranformers and Pirates who love the X-Men movies. One of the bigger audience reactions the night I saw Transformers was at a Wolverine reference.

The studios have been releasing their big superhero movies in the summer right along with the pirates, robots, and wizards. They don't exist on some other level of existence just because it's the genre you prefer. You just like them better, which is cool. I like most of them too.

But I know a few people who think the superhero films are just as silly as TF or Pirates. I have a friend who's a huge Hugh Jackman fan who won't see the X-movies because she hates his hair as Wolverine.

Like it's been pointed out, I have gone to all of these movies, most on opening night. The trailer that was cheered the most in front of Spiderman 3 was for Harry Potter. When I saw X3 last year, the trailer for Pirates 2 got the most cheering. When the TF trailer ran before Pirates 3, the guy in front of me yelled "WOOOO-HOOOO!" like he was on a rollercoaster ride. The Spiderman and X-Men trailers I saw in front of the LOTR movies got tons of applause--the X2 trailer had them cheering before the first shot faded in.

Since most of us have seen the big summer movies, it's perfectly acceptable to compare one to another. If someone had started a thread comparing X3 to Hairspray...then I would think it wasn't an equal comparison. :oldrazz:
 
If someone had started a thread comparing X3 to Hairspray...then I would think it wasn't an equal comparison. :oldrazz:

I wouldn't be too sure about that... the title says it all... X-Men vs. Hairspray :oldrazz:
 
We really should start making those dull threads, just to spice up the board. :oldrazz:

Like, X-Men vs Shindler's List. Or X-Men vs Lion King. You get the idea.
 
X-Men vs. Dreamgirls would be an interesting topic. :oldrazz:
 
IMO Transformers was by FAR the better movie, not only was it entertaining, but it had a good heart to it and the characters of Sam, Mikaela, Bumblebee and Optimus Prime were done very well.

Plus the action knocked the **** out of ANYTHING in X3.
 
I loved X3 & I haven't seen Transformers but I think I'm going to enjoy Transformers more because it looks like it has a hell of a lot more action than X3.
 
IMO Transformers was by FAR the better movie, not only was it entertaining, but it had a good heart to it and the characters of Sam, Mikaela, Bumblebee and Optimus Prime were done very well.

Plus the action knocked the **** out of ANYTHING in X3.

What about Transformers vs Superman Returns? :hyper:
 
I loved X3 & I haven't seen Transformers but I think I'm going to enjoy Transformers more because it looks like it has a hell of a lot more action than X3.

So X3 didn't have enough action?
 
What about Transformers vs Superman Returns? :hyper:

I'll admit its a tough one, but i would say SR is the better movie for me. As you know i consider SR in the top 5 CB movies ever, were as Transformers is more top 10 (meaning i'd rank it about 8th or 9th).

Transformers was a better rollercoaster ride though. And it did have some good emotional and character scene's, which i usually wouldnt expect from Bay, his movies tend to be shallow but i didnt think TF was.

You should watch it XM, imo it is the best movie this year.

So X3 didn't have enough action?

IMO it didnt have enough meaningful action.
 
Did they fire Singer? I thought he walked away and signed up for SR after he and Fox were in some kind of deadlock over money.

That's not accurate. Fox initially had no problem with Singer signing with Warner to do Logan's Run. When he decided to direct Superman Returns that's when Tom Rothman went nuts. He fired Singer from his involvement with the show House, got rid of his office at Fox, and canceled his production company.

It's said he wanted $50m and they wouldn't give it to him.

I've never heard of this.

Who are you to decide if Fox was right in giving, or not giving, Singer what he wanted? That's not a decision for you to make.

Who said it was a decision for me to make? Stop putting words into my mouth. I can still debate over whether it was smart for Fox to not give Singer what he wanted.

Also, I thought you only discovered this forum after the release of X3 and had known nothing about the events in the lead-up the movie before you came here.

You're wrong. I discovered this forum well over a year before X-Men 3 came out. I read the commentaries between many posters in the X3 cyclops thread after the initial X3 script release in May of 2005 and remember such posters as Shadowboxing, thevileone, and Nell.

The amount of bitterness you have is peculiar for someone who is simply a casual moviegoer who didn't like the film. There is something more going on - i wouldn't be surprised if there is a closer connection to all this than you care to admit. A normal moviegoer or film enthusiast would not be as personally offended and embittered over X3 as you are.

Your welcome to come up with more ridiculous conspiracy theories about me if it makes you feel better. I remember you suggesting that I was one of the writers of Superman Returns which is beyond preposterous since I've spent a total of 5 minutes in that thread for the past year. Not once have I defended Singer and his production team in any Superman thread.




Well, I can tell you in all honesty that the scene you mention did not bother me, and I've never heard anyone other than you going on about it.

Okay. In all honesty this still doesn't change how I feel about that scene.

While mentioning force/trajectory/velocity, I do remember feeling bothered about the jet scenes in X2 and SR when the people inside the planes were not injured by the aircraft being suddenly stopped at high speed by Magneto and Superman respectively.

How do we know that none of the people weren't injured in these jet scenes? Some of the people involved could have suffered internal injuries. It can take months and some times years years for the effects of these types of injuries to be revealed.


All that is aside from Lois not having any sign of injury despite being flung around like a rag doll. And of course those on the X-jet did nothing as their plane hurtled to the ground. Those scenes did bother me.

See above answer.

But, back to your point on Wolverine, we'd have to analyse the exact nature of the kick given by Juggernaut. For instance, soccer kicks vary greatly - the ball goes in many directions during multiple attempts by the same person in a penalty shoot-out when aiming for the goal.

What? I have no idea where you're going with this. Comparing the variations in strength of a soccer player's kicks to a character that has a strength to lift 90 tons with the IQ of teenager is quite silly. I doubt that Juggernaut put a lot of thought into how much of his strength he wanted to use against Wolverine when he threw him. Whatever you're suggesting probably has no relevance.

Then you'd have to factor in Wolverine's adamantium skeleton - the metal is the densest material known.

Yes, it is dense just like diamond and it would take an incredible force to throw an object that dense through a ceiling. It would also take an incredible and equal force for Wolverine to immediately fall through another ceiling after juggernaut threw him. I'm still wondering what that force was.


And, regardless of that, i still thought the scene worked and have never heard anyone complain about it. Considering we can't know the exact science of the fictional adamantium etc, it's all a moot point anyway.

For you it's a moot point but, not for me because even though we don't know the exact science of fictional adamantium we can make estimations about the nature of it's structural integrity.



In a deleted scene, Jean shows concern for a scared girl trapped in a vehicle on the bridge. If she is concerned for the safety of anyone on the bridge, she might well have telekinetically protected everyone from falling when the bridge was lowered.

That's a theory but, it's still not believable. Jean showing concern for a innocent civilian is a lot different from showing concern for the brotherhood. I will never accept this theory because Jean never showed any concern for the brotherhood or reason to join the brotherhood in the first place.

Alternatively, Magneto might have protected them. He is shown in Jean's house anchoring himself solidly to the floor against the whirling mayhem, so he quite capable of doing so, especially if he could extend the magnetic field over a wider area.

Your theory is completely bogus and you know it. If Magneto had this ability then why in the hell didn't he put temporary magnetic fields around his brotherhood members in X-Men 1 and 2. Why didn't he put they fields around them in X3 at the battle at Al-catraz. Furthermore, why not just fly all of them over to Al-catraz with the same Magnetic fields that Magneto uses to fly? If Magneto had this power there would be no reason to transport the brotherhood members over to Al-catraz with a brigde. Of course in reality Magneto does not have this power. He can protect only himself from harm with Magnetic fields. There is no evidence in any of the X-Men films that contradict how Magneto's powers work.

Or it may be that they all fell over and you aren't expected to carry out a year-long autopsy on the scene. Take your pick.


In the novelisation, if i recall correctly, everyone does fall over, except for Jean and Magneto, who anchor themselves against the impact.

Of course they all fell over. That's why it was idiotic for Magneto to drop the bridge because some brotherhood members would have died and others would have been severly hurt.

So, the possibilities are there: Jean or Magneto protected everyone, or they didn't and eeryone fell over and you are expected not to develop a neurotic fixation over it.

I will admit that the possibilites are there but, the probabilities aren't and that's what I have a problem with. It's possible that the reason angel made it to the final battle because while he was at the X-Mansion his powers evolved to the point where he could fly faster than jets. That is also very improbable and laughable.


And there is a larger difference between logical rationalisation (with acceptance of possibilities) and your neurotic attempt to find something wrong with everything.

There's also a difference between logical rationalisation and your neurotic attempt to find something wrong with everything with all of my criticisms.

No one else goes to your lengths, though people often discuss possibilities, so you're very much the lone voice.

If this was true it still wouldn't change the validity of my criticisms and just for the record Nightcrawler had twice as many critical X3 posts as me and he stopped posting in this forum 8 months ago so there's nothing extreme about what I'm doing. Thevileone has been bashing FF1 since 2005 and he has 13,000 posts.




I didn't lie at all, I mentioned possible explanations that seemed reasonable.

Okay. I can't prove that you lied but, there are to types of liars. There are those that say things inspite of knowing they're 100% wrong. Other liars make claims that they are not sure about. Whether the latter liars end up being right or wrong about their claims they are still being dishonest about the perspective on their claims. You fall into the category of the latter. You said you were sure that the mutants moved to the back of the bridge before it fell and you were proven to be 100% wrong because their is no scene in the movie when this happens. After I shot holes in that theory you were suddenly convinced that the front part of the bridge dropped first before the back part and there was no scene of that happening in X-Men 3 either.

You can tell me 100 times that you didn't lie but, the nature of your attitude towards my answers suggests something else. I truely believe you were just making this crap up while you debated me. You were either staling for time, hoping that you're theories would end up being true, or simply wishing that I would eventually tire of debating you.




Well, in my view, the trucks scene wasn't too short (there is an aspect of it that I don't like though), neither was the bridge scene. As you say, the bridge scene isn't that exciting, so it didn't need to be longer as there's not a lot more that could be done to make a moving bridge look dazzling... unless perhaps they did add a scene of Jean or Magneto protecting everyone when it was lowered. Or perhaps a scene of Jean obviously gesturing to help Magneto to move it or steady it (which she does do in the novelisation). The astral plane might have been good, I agree, though it depends on how it was shown. It might have seemed confusing or distracting - the psychic voices were removed as it was...but the fact that those were recorded does show they were thinking of a more obvious psychic battle.

I agree with most of this. All of these scenes could have been twice as exciting if more had been added.




Quills and Arclight were unconscious on the lawn from Storm's tornado kicks.

How do we know they were unconscious? We don't know this. Maybe both of them watched most of the battle from outside after being scared of getting their asses kicked again. What's interesting is even if what you said is true both characters can be seen inside the house after Jean causes it to levitate.:oldrazz: If your theory is true what caused Quills and Arclight to immediately become conscious after going into unconsciousness.

Of course I don't buy your ridiculous theory. I do believe that Quills and Arclight being useless in those scenes is the result of Ratner's unique skill at making action scenes mindless.


Pyro was off on a mission sniffing around the cure clinics, ready to blow one up.

Yes, Pryo was off on another mission but, wouldn't it have made more sense for the Magneto's right hand man to be by his side when he tries to convince the most powerful mutant on the planet to join forces with the brotherhood?


Furthermore, did Pyro's this mission even make sense and what did this mission accomplish for Magneto and the brotherhood? There were many mutant curing facilities set up around the US. How did the destruction of one help Magneto's cause?

Arclight's power - as seen when she does use it at Alcatraz - shatters inorganic materials, so not much good against Storm.

First of all if you payed more attention you would have noticed that Arclight's power is the ability to create shockwaves. Shockwaves can destroy organic and inorganic materials so your theory is bogus.

Secondly, what you were suggesting was ridiculous because it would have made Arclight's power almost useless against other mutants. If what you were suggesting was true then what offense or defense was Arclight trying to use as she prepared for Storm's attack at Jean's house.

Why in the hell was Arclight even there at Jean's house if her powers are so weak? Also, why would Magneto promote an almost completely useless mutant like this to his elite force? I guess in some bizzare sense this makes sense because Magneto promoted an even more useless mutant like quills to his elite force.:oldrazz:

Juggernaut is a dumb dolt... I saw it that he just reacted instinctively (and with the usual unthinking, brute force) to Wolverine's attack and the momentum took Wolverine into the house. He DID try to get Wolverine out of the house afterwards.

Yes, juggernaut is dumb but, dumb to the extent that he throws Wolverine into the house twice after being told not to? I don't remember Magneto hiring ******ed mutants to join his brotherhood in X1 and X2.
 
That's not accurate. Fox initially had no problem with Singer signing with Warner to do Logan's Run. When he decided to direct Superman Returns that's when Tom Rothman went nuts. He fired Singer from his involvement with the show House, got rid of his office at Fox, and canceled his production company.



I've never heard of this.



Who said it was a decision for me to make? Stop putting words into my mouth. I can still debate over whether it was smart for Fox to not give Singer what he wanted.



You're wrong. I discovered this forum well over a year before X-Men 3 came out. I read the commentaries between many posters in the X3 cyclops thread after the initial X3 script release in May of 2005 and remember such posters as Shadowboxing, thevileone, and Nell.



Your welcome to come up with more ridiculous conspiracy theories about me if it makes you feel better. I remember you suggesting that I was one of the writers of Superman Returns which is beyond preposterous since I've spent a total of 5 minutes in that thread for the past year. Not once have I defended Singer and his production team in any Superman thread.






Okay. In all honesty this still doesn't change how I feel about that scene.



How do we know that none of the people weren't injured in these jet scenes? Some of the people involved could have suffered internal injuries. It can take months and some times years years for the effects of these types of injuries to be revealed.




See above answer.



What? I have no idea where you're going with this. Comparing the variations in strength of a soccer player's kicks to a character that has a strength to lift 90 tons with the IQ of teenager is quite silly. I doubt that Juggernaut put a lot of thought into how much of his strength he wanted to use against Wolverine when he threw him. Whatever you're suggesting probably has no relevance.



Yes, it is dense just like diamond and it would take an incredible force to throw an object that dense through a ceiling. It would also take an incredible and equal force for Wolverine to immediately fall through another ceiling after juggernaut threw him. I'm still wondering what that force was.




For you it's a moot point but, not for me because even though we don't know the exact science of fictional adamantium we can make estimations about the nature of it's structural integrity.





That's a theory but, it's still not believable. Jean showing concern for a innocent civilian is a lot different from showing concern for the brotherhood. I will never accept this theory because Jean never showed any concern for the brotherhood or reason to join the brotherhood in the first place.



Your theory is completely bogus and you know it. If Magneto had this ability then why in the hell didn't he put temporary magnetic fields around his brotherhood members in X-Men 1 and 2. Why didn't he put they fields around them in X3 at the battle at Al-catraz. Furthermore, why not just fly all of them over to Al-catraz with the same Magnetic fields that Magneto uses to fly? If Magneto had this power there would be no reason to transport the brotherhood members over to Al-catraz with a brigde. Of course in reality Magneto does not have this power. He can protect only himself from harm with Magnetic fields. There is no evidence in any of the X-Men films that contradict how Magneto's powers work.



Of course they all fell over. That's why it was idiotic for Magneto to drop the bridge because some brotherhood members would have died and others would have been severly hurt.



I will admit that the possibilites are there but, the probabilities aren't and that's what I have a problem with. It's possible that the reason angel made it to the final battle because while he was at the X-Mansion his powers evolved to the point where he could fly faster than jets. That is also very improbable and laughable.




There's also a difference between logical rationalisation and your neurotic attempt to find something wrong with everything with all of my criticisms.



If this was true it still wouldn't change the validity of my criticisms and just for the record Nightcrawler had twice as many critical X3 posts as me and he stopped posting in this forum 8 months ago so there's nothing extreme about what I'm doing. Thevileone has been bashing FF1 since 2005 and he has 13,000 posts.






Okay. I can't prove that you lied but, there are to types of liars. There are those that say things inspite of knowing they're 100% wrong. Other liars make claims that they are not sure about. Whether the latter liars end up being right or wrong about their claims they are still being dishonest about the perspective on their claims. You fall into the category of the latter. You said you were sure that the mutants moved to the back of the bridge before it fell and you were proven to be 100% wrong because their is no scene in the movie when this happens. After I shot holes in that theory you were suddenly convinced that the front part of the bridge dropped first before the back part and there was no scene of that happening in X-Men 3 either.

You can tell me 100 times that you didn't lie but, the nature of your attitude towards my answers suggests something else. I truely believe you were just making this crap up while you debated me. You were either staling for time, hoping that you're theories would end up being true, or simply wishing that I would eventually tire of debating you.






I agree with most of this. All of these scenes could have been twice as exciting if more had been added.






How do we know they were unconscious? We don't know this. Maybe both of them watched most of the battle from outside after being scared of getting their asses kicked again. What's interesting is even if what you said is true both characters can be seen inside the house after Jean causes it to levitate.:oldrazz: If your theory is true what caused Quills and Arclight to immediately become conscious after going into unconsciousness.

Of course I don't buy your ridiculous theory. I do believe that Quills and Arclight being useless in those scenes is the result of Ratner's unique skill at making action scenes mindless.




Yes, Pryo was off on another mission but, wouldn't it have made more sense for the Magneto's right hand man to be by his side when he tries to convince the most powerful mutant on the planet to join forces with the brotherhood?


Furthermore, did Pyro's this mission even make sense and what did this mission accomplish for Magneto and the brotherhood? There were many mutant curing facilities set up around the US. How did the destruction of one help Magneto's cause?



First of all if you payed more attention you would have noticed that Arclight's power is the ability to create shockwaves. Shockwaves can destroy organic and inorganic materials so your theory is bogus.

Secondly, what you were suggesting was ridiculous because it would have made Arclight's power almost useless against other mutants. If what you were suggesting was true then what offense or defense was Arclight trying to use as she prepared for Storm's attack at Jean's house.

Why in the hell was Arclight even there at Jean's house if her powers are so weak? Also, why would Magneto promote an almost completely useless mutant like this to his elite force? I guess in some bizzare sense this makes sense because Magneto promoted an even more useless mutant like quills to his elite force.:oldrazz:



Yes, juggernaut is dumb but, dumb to the extent that he throws Wolverine into the house twice after being told not to? I don't remember Magneto hiring ******ed mutants to join his brotherhood in X1 and X2.

^^^^
That was a very long-winded way of saying you didn't enjoy the movie. :hyper: Especially when you said it all so many times before and it has nothing to do with a Transformers comparison. You've wasted so much time and energy on all that! I do hope you devote as much time and energy to the things you enjoy. :dry:
 
^^^^
That was a very long-winded way of saying you didn't enjoy the movie. :hyper: Especially when you said it all so many times before and it has nothing to do with a Transformers comparison. You've wasted so much time and energy on all that! I do hope you devote as much time and energy to the things you enjoy. :dry:

I haven't wasted any time. You're the one who keeps asking questions that get us off topic and then when I answer them you call my answers pointless. Why are you posting messages in a thread that you consider pointless?:dry:
 
I haven't wasted any time. You're the one who keeps asking questions that get us off topic and then when I answer them you call my answers pointless. Why are you posting messages in a thread that you consider pointless?:dry:

Well, I was responding to your points. I’m not lying, or trying to shut you up, I’m offering what I believe are possible explanations.

You have to make allowances with sci-fi and fantasy movies. For instance, Gandalf summons giant eagles in the final battle in ROTK, leaving people wondering why he’d never done that before. For instance, in X1, Rogue happens to turn up in the exact bar where Wolverine is, Magneto somehow is aware of who she is and where she is and that her power to put a boy in a coma will be useful with a machine he has not even tested at that point (so he wouldn’t know he’d need someone else to operate it at the Statue at that point), Sabretooth happens to be able to track them and create a precise ambush (and then find his way back on to Magneto’s island), she just happens to call herself Rogue for no obvious reason and, later, when Wolverine meets the X-Men, he mocks their codenames DESPITE calling himself by the name Wolverine and having arrived with a girl who inexplicably calls herself Rogue. As pieces of plot set-up, these felt a little awkward and contrived..but were no doubt needed to move the story on. There’s also the silly scene in X2 where Magneto pulls the pins out of the soldiers’ grenades in the dam (while on the other side of a wall), though nothing else aside from the grenade pins seems to be affected.

By the way, Arclight’s power is explained in the novelisation as the power to shatter inorganic matterials by finding the frequency at which they break... this is borne out in the movie by the fact that when she uses her power at Alcatraz, the plastic guns are broken but the soldiers are not injured or killed or thrown around. Her mutant power is obviously quite specific. The fact she is able to generate such shockwaves just from a handclap takes us into sci-fi anyway. So your attempt to apply real-life science is bogus. I’d love to hear your take on how Cyclops generates beams of concussive force (not lasers, no heat) from his eyes.

I can also see why they went for the impact - literally - of having Magneto drop the bridge rather than delicately lowering it on to the troops and their look-out station on the island.

This is science fiction. The science is fictional. How you’ve never figured that out before now is astounding
 
transformers owns the last stand in every single possible way.

x3 was a horrible piece of retconning and ignoring of story.

such a silly film
 
transformers owns the last stand in every single possible way.

x3 was a horrible piece of retconning and ignoring of story.

such a silly film

Transformers may well be better (haven’t seen it yet)... but bear in mind it hasn’t got 40 years of comics and two previous movies by another director to try to fit in with...You may well not like X3...nothing wrong with that either...

But there was no retconning in X3. None at all. In X1, Jean is not allowed to operate Cerebro because it takes ‘a degree of control’ and it wouild be ‘dangerous’ for ‘someone like her’; in a deleted scene, Logan asks if Xavier is holding her back and whether Scott is too restrained for someone like her; no one else is affected by Magneto’s machine so why should she be special?... Famke Janssen herself said the Phoenix was a second personality and that Singer had explained it to her that way. The evolutionary leap refers to her mutation being a huge step above other mutants’ powers and that her pesonal evolution completed itself at the dam when the mental blocks broke. It doesn’t mean she genetically evolved at that point - that’s not really possible. It means that, as in the comics, she achieved her full potential as a psi, because Xavier’s mental barriers were shattering.

X3 crystallised all those thoughts. There was no retconning. Repeat after me. There was no retconning.

That wasn’t what was wrong with the movie. In my view it suffered from the Act III syndrome (see also X2, SR, many others) where events sag a little at the climax and do not come to fruition satisfactorily. As Phoenix was so uber-powerful, she could have done anything. Difficult to handle that kind of god-like character. So she stood around, lost and tumoiled, until a trigger event let the Phoenix loose. Unfortunately, standing around looking vacant didn’t translate well - if they’d fixed that and given us a proper climax it’d be much better. X2 gave us people wandering round at a dam, X3 gave us people standing around on an island - maybe that’s why it was the last stand!!
 
X-maniac, still haven't seen it? hehe... is curious all this discussion between you and other user, when you haven't seen it, hehe. No offense, really, but is a bit weird.
 
X-maniac, still haven't seen it? hehe... is curious all this discussion between you and other user, when you haven't seen it, hehe. No offense, really, but is a bit weird.

1) I will see it eventually
2) Even if I prefer it to X3, which is possible, there isn't much I can do about that now! X3 is what it is.
3) Bay's action sounds like it could be excellent - maybe he will bring it to another superhero movie, maybe even X-Men..
4) We'll never get giant Sentinels now, they will be seen as a copy of TF
5) I'll let you know what I think of TF when it see it
6) I already think there are much better movies than X3, so I'm not that biased! Casino Royale was a much better movie than most things last year!
 

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