World Truth, Justice, 'all that stuff'?

[thechubbysaint]

Didn't mean to come off prejudice against Canadians, don't even remember getting off on that argument track to be honest.

 

[Dope Nose]

I never said we had the only casualties.

I am saying that since we had men die for that cease fire, we had the right to go back in when the corrupt UN would just let Saddam slide. Sanctions have never been really effective, and all they do is punish the civilians in that country. (See oil for food scandal)

As for international law, that is a myth. Do some homework.

you do realize you're part of the UN, right? 41 other countries are corrupt, and yours is what? the shining beacon of morality?

let Saddam slide on what, exactly? WMDs? ties to al Qaeda?

 

[Malus]

I think an alien being on earth would be more on an international affair reather than american.....to have SuperMan defend "the american way" is nothing but a slap in the face to the fine tradition that is Sci-Fi.

The problem is that Superman is not about what you or I think.
The character's long-established national allegiance is unquestionably to these United States of America. It runs through so much of the material in the thirties, forties and fifties that it's just a joke to even suggest otherwise.
How often has Superman posed with the flag of any other nation? I'd like to see just one DC-published example of Kal-El posing with the flag of any nation other than the U.S.A.
Nothing can change that.
The politics of the moment are just that. But the fundamental ideals of America that Superman has always represented...Those are non-negotiable and etched in stone, no matter how many unqualified cretins occupy the Presidency, be they war-mongering coke fiend or sexually compulsive misogynist.
But Superman...He's better than all of them. He's morally superior to any man who has ever occupied the Oval Office. It's just too bad he's fictional.
But still, he represents the true American ideal, and...we're gonna let him keep his American citizen status for now. If that's okay with the rest of you.

Yes, he's proud to be one of us, but he helps mankind out pretty equally.
Or does he? By choosing to live in the U.S., isn't he in effect giving her citizens preferential treatment? I mean, the closer a situation is, the quicker response time he can give...the more lives he can save.
That's sort of an unpleasant truth, even to me.

As for the notion that he stays here because this is the place on Earth that needs the most help... Please. We all know Seigel & Shuster certainly wouldn't say that.

In a strange way, this whole "superman belongs to the world" debate reminds me of a shool teacher who was a customer at the comics shop I used to own back in the 90's. He came in one day and bought some "Tick" comics for reference for a mural he was doing for his class, who all reportedly loved the Tick cartoon that was on Fox Saturday mornings back then. He came in a week or so later to show me photographs of the finished mural and his classroom. In the mural, the Tick, who is as Caucasian as Captain Crunch or Santa Claus, appeared as a very black man. For a moment I was a bit bothered, I even felt some indignation on behalf of Ben Edlund, the Tick's creator... but I couldn't say anything, especially after seeing the picture with three grinning African-American second-graders posing proudly next to their hero.

Listen, there's plenty Superman to go around, okay?
But the fact is, he's as American as comic books, Mickey Mouse, Elvis Presley, Apple Pie and the fireworks we'll be watching this Tuesday night on Our birthday.
(And yes, I know we didn't invent Apple pie or fireworks.)

 

[FlameHead]

Wanna talk about cultural acceptance, just travel to some major U.S cities and you will see diversity.

South Florida and New York probably has more diversity than all of Canada.

Please list some peacekeeping successes you had?

Nice conspiracy theories on drugs and other 'stolen resources.'

Peacekeeping is a success in itself.

I'm done here with you. For the record, I do not hate America. In fact, I really love the pride you guys have. I also love your determination and lust for freedom. It's just too bad you're letting elements of your Government take it away from you under a guise of some false terror threat. What pisses me off though is that a high population of America probably wouldn't even be able to point Canada out on a map and then these same people pretend to know so much about us... or better yet, just assume something about us that's not true.

Regardless of that, what I'm talking about is an issue on a global scale. There are powers in this world at work and unfortuantly, these powers have America by the balls at this point. They almost have the world by the balls. It's those of us who are willing to stand up to official bull**** stories that will make the difference. It's those of us who believe we, as humans, are better than what we've developed into that will break us from this darkness.

America and their many guns a blazing isn't going to save us. The people are.

 

[FlameHead]

you do realize you're part of the UN, right? 41 other countries are corrupt, and yours is what? the shining beacon of morality?

let Saddam slide on what, exactly? WMDs? ties to al Qaeda?

The UN is a problem anyway. We're letting ourselves becoming governed, worldly, by one organization. When you have one organization controlling so much, playing both sides, there's a problem.

Besides, any organization that allows China to be as brutal as they are and still remain a member without penalty has something wrong with it. Jesus, this people have killed more of their own people than any other country in the world. They eat babies. Babies. And still, the American governing bodies award their county as the one to look up too. There's something wrong with this picture.

 

[Malus]

-America and their many guns a blazing isn't going to save us. The people are.

Man, how weird is it that I just changed my avatar to Clint Eastwood, complete with pre-blazing guns, right before you posted that?
Flamehead, if you're psychic, that's just not fair to the rest of us on this board!

 

[thechubbysaint]

The UN is a problem anyway. We're letting ourselves becoming governed, worldly, by one organization. When you have one organization controlling so much, playing both sides, there's a problem.

Besides, any organization that allows China to be as brutal as they are and still remain a member without penalty has something wrong with it. Jesus, this people have killed more of their own people than any other country in the world. They eat babies. Babies. And still, the American governing bodies award their county as the one to look up too. There's something wrong with this picture.

Flame, I agree mostly.

What do you mean by this though?

And still, the American governing bodies award their county as the one to look up too. There's something wrong with this picture.

oh and that baby thing?

 

[Malus]

The UN is a problem anyway....Any organization that allows China to be as brutal as they are and still remain a member without penalty has something wrong with it. Jesus, this people have killed more of their own people than any other country in the world. They eat babies. Babies. And still, the American governing bodies award their county as the one to look up too. There's something wrong with this picture.

No argument there. I think China is just sitting back, letting everyone else expend their domestic and military resources until the time is ripe.

(Are you sure about that babies part, though? Please refer to some documentation on that...)

 

[FlameHead]

thechubbysaint, what I mean is that last year, the Bush administration awarded the Chinease Government some sort of recognition as being the country to look up too. I can't remember the actual title but am looking for it now. One would think that the American Government is thus working towards that form of rule.

The baby thing is sometime I've looked into recently. There's lots of articles on it online though, I'm not sure how conclusive all of it is... which can be said forjust about everything these days. I do know that they have some really strict child laws over there though, including the killing of a lot of them. In one article I read (http://www.trosch.org/lif/baby-eat.html) that a doctor was quoted as saying

“People normally prefer [fetuses from] young women, and even better, the first boy and a male.”

She justifies the practice: “They are wasted if we don’t eat them . . Zou Qin has fed fetuses to her sister’s children. “I wash them with clear water until they look transparent white and then stew them. Making soup is best.” A photo depicts Zou Qin smiling, holding up a tiny fetus which hasn’t made it to her bowl yet.

 

[FlameHead]

Man, how weird is it that I just changed my avatar to Clint Eastwood, complete with pre-blazing guns, right before you posted that?
Flamehead, if you're psychic, that's just not fair to the rest of us on this board!

I always believed I was pyschic actually. Funny you mention that...

 

[thechubbysaint]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1584/is_n10_v3/ai_12094431

This it flame? Most favored trade status?

I think that policy is for gradual change.

 

[FlameHead]

nope, that was in 1992.

 

[thechubbysaint]

Gets renewed every few years though.

 

[FlameHead]

It's not what I'm referring to. It was an award of recognition.

 

[Malus]

I do know that they have some really strict child laws over there though, including the killing of a lot of them. In one article I read (http://www.trosch.org/lif/baby-eat.html) that a doctor was quoted as saying

Looking at the other articles on that site, I'd definitely have to see a more um, grounded source.
Those are some ghastly charges. I really, really hope it's not true.

Sadly, though, I believe we live in a world where it certainly could be true.

 

[FlameHead]

Looking at the other articles on that site, I'd definitely have to see a more um, grounded source.
Those are some ghastly charges. I really, really hope it's not true.

Sadly, though, I believe we live in a world where it certainly could be true.

I really hope that just about everything I've learnt over the last 6 months dealing with the truth behind our world is not true too but, sadly, it's not. It's very real and it's very important that we are all aware of what's really happening on this beautiful planet of ours.

It's time to wake up. Americans, Canadians, Britians, Australians, everyone has to wake up.

 

[Dope Nose]

The character's long-established national allegiance is unquestionably to these United States of America.

well, technically it's not the real United States. it's the US of an almost parallel world, one with a Gotham and a Central City and a nation of Kandaq. most importantly it's a fictional world.

Yes, he's proud to be one of us, but he helps mankind out pretty equally. Or does he? By choosing to live in the U.S., isn't he in effect giving her citizens preferential treatment? I mean, the closer a situation is, the quicker response time he can give...the more lives he can save.
That's sort of an unpleasant truth, even to me.

I don't know about that. I mean, given his speed...

 

[Dope Nose]

here's an article dismissing the baby eating as an urban legend.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa080601a.htm

I want my baby back baby back baby back... ribs

 

[Malus]

There's an excellent essay on this today on the movie site CHUD: http://www.chud.com/index.php?type=news&id=7037
Here's an excerpt:
TRUTH, JUSTICE AND... A GENERAL CONCEPT OF NICENESS
07.01.06
By Devin Faraci

Truth, justice and the American way. It’s essentially Superman’s motto. Warner Bros certainly thinks so – they sued a film about the last days of TV Superman George Reeves that used that phrase for a title; the movie is now known as the far less evocative Hollywoodland.

Truth and justice make appearances in Bryan Singer’s Superman Returns, but the American way is notably absent – Perry White even leaves it out at a Daily Planet staff meeting. Superman Returns may be the least patriotic Superman movie of all time; on first examination it seems that the only American flag in the film is on the side of the jet and space shuttle Superman rescues, and that seems like the kind of thing the art department would have added, not the director.

Some people will say that Superman is global – he’s here for all the people of the Earth. Why make him an American hero? It’s true that Kal-El’s work on this planet isn’t just for the people of the US (although it’s easy to believe it’s just for the people of the fictional city of Metropolis – the vast majority of the new film’s running time takes place in that town), but to remove Superman from his American origins is to lose the basis of the character. The importance of Superman as an American is because he isn’t from America. Superman is the ultimate immigrant, only instead of coming here from Eastern Europe, like the families of his creators, he rocketed here from a doomed planet.

As an immigrant, Superman embodies the American dream – he grows up imbued with basic American values of right, wrong and fairness as well as his Kryptonian powers. He’s not the same person without both of those things, something that was shown in countless “imaginary stories” (as opposed to all the factual Superman stories) in the Golden and Silver Ages of comics. Superman is the melting pot in human form, combining his glorious ethnic heritage with the solid beliefs of America.

Of course in 2006 we’re far from a world like the one where Superman was created. That’s partially because the American way triumphed – freedom, liberty and democracy are much more the norm in the world in this century than they were in the last. But some things never change, and America remains the destination for people from all over the globe looking for a new start and a new chance. The big difference is that the faces have changed – instead of the Eastern Europeans of the first half of the last century, blown to America by the winds of war, the current faces of immigration are darker, from Africa and Southeast Asia and South America. But that’s just a cosmetic change.

Other things are different in 2006 as well, and one of them might very well be the basic definition of the American way. To me it remains unambiguous, but to some – and one of them, I suspect, is Bryan Singer – it’s been tainted by the last few decades of corruption, partisan bickering and war. I’m as liberal as the next guy (if the next guy is Noam Chomsky), but I think it’s short sighted to judge this country as a whole based on the last few years of dictatorial mismanagement – as much as the current administration seems to hate to admit it, this nation remains founded on the basic principals that Superman stands for: honesty, equality, democracy, liberty, fairness (is there any doubt that Superman was all about the New Deal? He’s such a New Deal character – all about the little guy, but in a slightly totalitarian way that sometimes feels like he’s overstepping his bounds).

What Singer missed out on was the opportunity to reclaim the American flag. There’s a trend in leftie politics to reject any nationalism, and I think that’s pointless. Rejecting jingoism is one thing – let’s not get into a pissing match about whose nation is better, unless you’re from Mexico, in which case we win. But nationalism should be about loving where you’re from, not being blindly devoted to it. I love this country – I love its geography and its culture and its history – but that doesn’t mean I can’t see when it’s f**king up. In fact, my nationalism makes me feel those mistakes all the more deeply; I know we can do better than a gay marriage ban or a pointless and endless war in Iraq. It’s that nationalism that makes me want to improve this country, to fix what’s not working and shore up the stuff that we got right.

Donner’s Superman was more overtly patriotic, which is interesting when you look at when the film was made, in the years after Watergate. There are some people who don’t like to analyze a film beyond the entertainment value of what is on screen; these people are known as “stupid.” Looking at Donner’s Superman films in the context of the time can be illuminating – the patriotism on display is a touch hokey and campy, like it’s seen as something from a wistful bygone era. It’s all a part of Superman’s general corny nature, something naive to be both laughed at and yet wished for.

Interestingly, Singer’s Superman could be seen as representing modern America in many ways. A TV news montage shows us that he intervenes on an international scale, flying in and out of countries to set things right. We find out that Luthor is out of jail because of Superman’s Cheney-esque disregard for the rights of criminals. And speaking of Cheney, Superman appears to be just as much of a peeping tom as the vice president – besides his creepy stalking of Lois Lane’s home, he flies up into the sky to better listen in on everyone’s conversations. Superman doesn’t even need the help of telecommunications companies to eavesdrop on you.

There’s probably another reason that Singer left any patriotism out of the film, and while it’s partially political, it’s mostly capitalistic – Superman Returns is a major worldwide release, and in 2006 the American flag isn’t always seen as the symbol of freedom in other major movie markets. It’s too often seen as the flag of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, the flag of Haditha and global imperialism. And so Metropolis is a nation unto itself, and Superman is divorced from his Midwest roots.

Of all the balls Singer drops in the film this could be the one that makes me saddest. Every day I open the paper and read about how the country I love is slowly moving away from being anything I can understand and support, and I listen to people who share my political views becoming more and more exasperated with the very concept of this nation. I would have loved nothing more than to go to the movies this summer and see there on the screen one of America’s great heroes, reminding us all of the qualities that still make this country great, no matter who is squatting in the White House.

 

[Superman79]

^^gREAT Article

 

[Dope Nose]

As an immigrant, Superman embodies the American dream – he grows up imbued with basic American values of right, wrong and fairness as well as his Kryptonian powers. He’s not the same person without both of those things, something that was shown in countless “imaginary stories” (as opposed to all the factual Superman stories) in the Golden and Silver Ages of comics. Superman is the melting pot in human form, combining his glorious ethnic heritage with the solid beliefs of America.

I think what the author needs to understand is that values of right, wrong, and fairness aren't confined solely to America.

There are some people who don’t like to analyze a film beyond the entertainment value of what is on screen; these people are known as “stupid.”

yeesh.

 

[FlameHead]

Good article indeed. What I find funny about it though is that the writer judges the Americana in a movie by the number of American flags throughout. I didn't realize American movies had to spend thousands of dollars on flags to be an American movie.

Anyway, I just got back from seeing the flick finally and all I gotta say is that you pick the line "Truth, Justice, and all that stuff" as something to ***** about when there is so much else wrong about that movie. Not horrible but, not good either.

 

[Vile]

I watched one of the trailers for Superman Returns where Perry White asks, "Does he still stand for truth, justice, all that stuff?" Hold the presses there Perry, to my recollection, he stands for truth, justice, and the American way. I don't know what kind of motivation or agenda the writers, director, producers have, but I am SORELY disappointed in their cowardace in changing what an American icon Superman has been.

Thats because in the new movie he sires a bastard son, abandons him for 5 years then returns with a simple: "I'll be around."

Thats the NOW American way. Ya know...all the other stuff. =)

 

[hulkamania85]

Who really cares? The only reason I read into it like that it all is because some of you guys got uptight about it. I just saw it as Perry White trying to remember Superman's motto. I don't see what the big deal is whether he mentions America or not.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

Superman no longer belongs to simply America...the Man of Steel is a UNIVERSAL symbol of hope, peace and nobility for billions around the globe.

Superman doesn't belong to the US, he belongs to the world.

Why must he single out a paticular country?

He doesn't. Just like any human on Earth, Superman is biased towards his own country.. of course I know there are exceptions but there are many people proud of their country and what it stands for. Superman is world famous and has fans around the globe, he still is an American who lived over half his life in a rural American town. It only makes sense that he would stand for the American way, just like a lot of people in America or elsewhere are proud of their country. Of course over time he can change, once he's experienced more of the world and beyond.

I honestly don't understand why fans not living in America or are not happy with American politics take it as a personal attack that Superman says he stands for the American way. Just look at it as a character trait, a quirk, whatever, and move on with your life. lol