Ultimate Marvel

[TheCorpulent1]

616 versions of characters are better than Ultimate versions of the same characters, bar none. The Ultimate line is a failed experiment that ought to just be aborted, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[anrrd_2]

^you really dont like ANY of the ultimates looks better than 616? wow...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, visually, some are cool. The new Ultimate Beetle design I recently saw kicks the crap out of the goofy old red and purple 616 Beetle. But the characters themselves? Nope, 616 all the way.

 

[anrrd_2]

i can accept that...as a whole im a 616 fan (see my first post)...but some of the things the the ult. universe has done is very "interesting"

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, they're all right. My problem with it is that the characters who are done really similarly, like Ultimate Spider-Man, could've just had those stories told with their 616 counterparts, and the characters who are done wildly differently could've just been done as totally new characters.

 

[anrrd_2]

never thought of it that way...you make a good point

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm full of them. Sometimes I poke myself, I got so many good points!

 

[anrrd_2]

lol, nice

 

[Blader5489]

Eh, they're all right. My problem with it is that the characters who are done really similarly, like Ultimate Spider-Man, could've just had those stories told with their 616 counterparts

How the hell could stories from Ultimate Spider-Man or The Ultimates be done with their 616 counterparts?

, and the characters who are done wildly differently could've just been done as totally new characters.

That's not nearly as interesting though. If they were done as completely new characters, people would complain that they're just rip-offs. Characters like Ultimate Cap, Ultimate Thor, Ultimate Spider-Man, and Ultimate Fury all work better as fresh takes on existing characters rather than as completely new ones.

I love the Ultimate line. I prefer the more realistic approach to superheroes to the 616 universe's overall cheesiness (though thankfully, the 616 books have become more realistic in the last few years). I also like the fact that the Ultimate universe is basically a playground for my favorite characters where the stories actually matter; you don't have to worry about things being reversed or retconned down the line. It's pure entertainment, and the fact that it doesn't have to worry about sustaining itself indefinitely helps add gravitas to books like USM and Millar's Ultimates--though those are the only Ultimate books I really care about.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Well,the Ultimate Line has nearly everything in paperback. You can buy Ultimate Spider-Man from the start. But it's around 18 paperbacks now,so if you want to get into it. It's very easy,most would say that the best would be 1-8. Paperbacks that is,after that..it starts to go down hill,as if Bendis is running out of ideas.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

How the hell could stories from Ultimate Spider-Man or The Ultimates be done with their 616 counterparts?

Ultimate Spider-Man could be done as flashbacks, same way X-Men: First Class and Wolverine: First Class are doing their stories. The Ultimates is a pretty different series from the Avengers, right down to the subtext behind almost all of the characters, so they'd have to be done as new guys.

That's not nearly as interesting though. If they were done as completely new characters, people would complain that they're just rip-offs. Characters like Ultimate Cap, Ultimate Thor, Ultimate Spider-Man, and Ultimate Fury all work better as fresh takes on existing characters rather than as completely new ones.

I love the Ultimate line. I prefer the more realistic approach to superheroes to the 616 universe's overall cheesiness (though thankfully, the 616 books have become more realistic in the last few years). I also like the fact that the Ultimate universe is basically a playground for my favorite characters where the stories actually matter; you don't have to worry about things being reversed or retconned down the line. It's pure entertainment, and the fact that it doesn't have to worry about sustaining itself indefinitely helps add gravitas to books like USM and Millar's Ultimates--though those are the only Ultimate books I really care about.

Eh, that's all your opinion. My opinion is that they'd work fine as new characters. Hell, Loeb spoofed them in Superman/Batman as the Maximums and it made for a decent story where you could clearly tell who everyone was based on and that it was an homage.

And the idea that the Ultimate universe doesn't have to worry about retcons is ridiculous. It's already had several retcons.

 

[Blader5489]

Thank you very much. Any particular issues/arcs I should look for in particular?

For The Ultimates, it's pretty easy--just pick up volume 1 (Super Human/Homeland Security) and volume 2 (Gods and Monsters/Grand Theft America).

For Ultimate Spider-Man, I would recommend issues 1-39, 47-65, 72-85, 97-105, and 111-120 (which was the most recent issue).

 

[The Overlord]

Eh, they're all right. My problem with it is that the characters who are done really similarly, like Ultimate Spider-Man, could've just had those stories told with their 616 counterparts, and the characters who are done wildly differently could've just been done as totally new characters.

I like what BKV did some b-list characters, Mojo as a space alien TV exec seemed a bit too outlandish for the X-men. I like him better as a human.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, I've never found anything too outlandish for superhero comics. They're superheroes; they live in a world where radiation gives you powers instead of cancer and a horrible death.

 

[Blader5489]

Ultimate Spider-Man could be done as flashbacks, same way X-Men: First Class and Wolverine: First Class are doing their stories.

I was under the impression those books were out-of-continuity. Whether they are or not, though, is irrelevant, as there is absolutely no way you could do something like Ultimate Spider-Man within the world of the 616 Spidey. Have you even ever read USM? How could you tell those kinds of stories in the 616 universe?

The Ultimates is a pretty different series from the Avengers, right down to the subtext behind almost all of the characters, so they'd have to be done as new guys.

But that defeats the entire purpose of the Ultimates. The whole premise is about a new take on a classic concept. Hell, that's the premise for the entire Ultimate universe: seeing familiar characters in new and different settings. If you take that away, then you take away the whole purpose of the Ultimate line.

I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever read an Ultimate book before. Your opinions about them seem entirely contradictory on the most fundamental level.

And the idea that the Ultimate universe doesn't have to worry about retcons is ridiculous. It's already had several retcons.

I was referring to the bigger retcons, the ones that significantly alter a character's history.

 

[The Overlord]

Eh, I've never found anything too outlandish for superhero comics. They're superheroes; they live in a world where radiation gives you powers instead of cancer and a horrible death.

No, but there's a difference of what works for different titles. Spider-man in space is stupid, FF in space is good.

Most X-men stories in space are stupid, with maybe one major exception. An evil TV exec in of itself is interesting, which him an alien as well and the character seems like their trying to juggle to many balls at once. Its like a character who is a cyborg, Nazi, vampire from space, on their own those things are interesting, but them together and they are stupid.

Also the fact that Ultimate Stryfe isn't a Cable Clone makes him a better character.

There are some 616 characters who are broken.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

"There are no bad characters, only bad writers." A good writer could make just about any concept work. Honestly, if the X-Men want to go into space or fight Skrulls or run afoul of the Inhumans, it's all fair game. I don't see anything as inherently not working for any characters. If everyone thought like that, Jurgens would never have mixed Thor with politics and I would've missed out on one of my absolute favorite takes on the character.

I was under the impression those books were out-of-continuity. Whether they are or not, though, is irrelevant, as there is absolutely no way you could do something like Ultimate Spider-Man within the world of the 616 Spidey. Have you even ever read USM? How could you tell those kinds of stories in the 616 universe?



But that defeats the entire purpose of the Ultimates. The whole premise is about a new take on a classic concept. Hell, that's the premise for the entire Ultimate universe: seeing familiar characters in new and different settings. If you take that away, then you take away the whole purpose of the Ultimate line.

I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever read an Ultimate book before. Your opinions about them seem entirely contradictory on the most fundamental level.



I was referring to the bigger retcons, the ones that significantly alter a character's history.

Wasn't Iron Man retconned from being an established superhero with a streamlined armor more in line with his 616 counterpart in Ultimate Marvel Team-Up to a newbie who just developed his gigantic, "human jet fighter" armor for The Ultimates? That's a pretty major change. But that's beside the point: the Ultimate universe has less than a decade of continuity at this point. The 616 universe has been going strong for 7 decades. Look at any major publisher that's been around for a while and you'll find retcons. They're necessary to keep the characters relevant, and they'll be just as necessary for the Ultimate characters if they make it another couple decades. Besides which, you could argue that the Ultimate characters are themselves just retcons of existing characters, since most of the major ones are still largely the same as their 616 counterparts.

Regarding the idea of telling Ultimate stories as untold tales of the 616 characters: Okay, I can see where that would be pretty much impossible for the Ultimate stories to bear any resemblance to the Ultimate stories that currently exist. I still think recasting them as new characters wouldn't be a problem, though. Discerning readers would still clearly be able to tell that they're homages to existing characters with new facets. Ultimate Cap, for example, couldn't be more different from 616 Cap unless he were an outright villain, so calling him something else wouldn't really be a big deal to me.

 

[Little Foot]

Well,the Ultimate Line has nearly everything in paperback. You can buy Ultimate Spider-Man from the start. But it's around 18 paperbacks now,so if you want to get into it. It's very easy,most would say that the best would be 1-8. Paperbacks that is,after that..it starts to go down hill,as if Bendis is running out of ideas.

For The Ultimates, it's pretty easy--just pick up volume 1 (Super Human/Homeland Security) and volume 2 (Gods and Monsters/Grand Theft America).

For Ultimate Spider-Man, I would recommend issues 1-39, 47-65, 72-85, 97-105, and 111-120 (which was the most recent issue).

Thank you both very much! I'll save your recommendations and try to pick some of them up as soon as I get the chance.

 

[Blader5489]

Wasn't Iron Man retconned from being an established superhero with a streamlined armor more in line with his 616 counterpart in Ultimate Marvel Team-Up to a newbie who just developed his gigantic, "human jet fighter" armor for The Ultimates? That's a pretty major change.

Huh? Stark had built the Iron Man armor long before joining the Ultimates. Hell, that armor was the reason Fury recruited Stark for the Ultimates in the first place.

I still think recasting them as new characters wouldn't be a problem, though. Discerning readers would still clearly be able to tell that they're homages to existing characters with new facets. Ultimate Cap, for example, couldn't be more different from 616 Cap unless he were an outright villain, so calling him something else wouldn't really be a big deal to me.

But again, the whole point is that the Ultimates are a new take on classic characters and concepts. That's the intrinsic appeal of the Ultimate line, particularly the Ultimates. You can't just "recast" the Ultimates as new characters with different names, that defeats the whole point.

Seriously, have you ever read the Ultimates? Or any Ultimate book? Because your ideas seem so contradictory to the very concept of the Ultimate universe and your bias against Ultimate characters doesn't seem to be rooted in anything but blind hatred.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Of course I've read Ultimate comics. I couldn't hate them as much as I do if I hadn't. And while you keep pointing out over and over again what the basic premise of the line is, you seem to be missing the point that I don't care. I think the Ultimate line is worthless, so obviously I don't really think the basic premise of the line is worthwhile anyway.

 

[venom892]

It's basically the earth-2 of Marvel.It's no longer what it set out to be.Marvel adventures is a better way to introduce the younger crowd to marvel.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I agree. Marvel Adventures, the First Class books, the Power Pack series, and the Franklin Richards one-shots are all great, light, fun books for kids. The First Class books have the added bonus of being set in the 616 continuity along with the major Marvel titles. Fred Van Lente has indicated that the Power Pack series may be brought into the 616, too.

I think the company line is now that Marvel Adventures is for kids, Ultimate is for teens, and the 616 comics are for adults. But that's kind of ridiculous because, frankly, teens could and should be cutting out the middle man and just going straight into the 616 comics.

 

[Blader5489]

I couldn't hate them as much as I do if I hadn't.

If I recall, you seemed to have formed an opinion on Civil War despite never having read it.

And while you keep pointing out over and over again what the basic premise of the line is, you seem to be missing the point that I don't care. I think the Ultimate line is worthless, so obviously I don't really think the basic premise of the line is worthwhile anyway.

I don't care whether or not you like the concept of the Ultimate line, I'm just trying to show you why your ideas don't work.

It's basically the earth-2 of Marvel.It's no longer what it set out to be.Marvel adventures is a better way to introduce the younger crowd to marvel.

The Ultimate line was never targeted at younger readers, just new ones--specifically teenagers and young adults were hooked by the movies but couldn't be bothered (or expected) to search through Wikipedia for hours just so they could be up to speed on the 616 books.

 

[yenaled]

The Ultimate line was never targeted at younger readers, just new ones--specifically teenagers and young adults were hooked by the movies but couldn't be bothered (or expected) to search through Wikipedia for hours just so they could be up to speed on the 616 books.

But that only works if you actually plan to end the stories. It's now actually less new reader friendly than 616.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If I recall, you seemed to have formed an opinion on Civil War despite never having read it.

Yeah, which is why I'm just mildly annoyed by it.

I don't care whether or not you like the concept of the Ultimate line, I'm just trying to show you why your ideas don't work.

My ideas work fine.