Comics Venom Idea

[Dangerous]

I’m not disputing whether you are a fan or not, but in quoting some things I said of ‘noobs’ and ‘blindly loyal Venom fan boys’, and then telling me about yourself and that my theories are thusly wrong, that automatically infers that you consider yourself to be one of the two.

 

[Arcturus]

I’m not disputing whether you are a fan or not, but in quoting some things I suspect of ‘noobs’ and ‘blindly loyal Venom fan boys’, and then telling me about yourself and that my theories are thusly wrong, that automatically infers that you consider yourself to be one of the two.

Okay, I see what you're saying. Yeah I know there are alot of people out there who could be considered venoobs, noobs. But I see no reason why I have to be considered a "blind" loyal fanboy, why can't I just be considered a venom fan? Where does this generalization come from? I'm a fan of Doctor Octopus, Green Goblin, Electro etc, but my favorite villain is Venom, is that so wrong?

Edit:

I guess I should also add, the reason why i'm not a "blind" loyal fan, is, I acknowledge that Venom has had a rough time as of late, but that doesn't stop me from being a fan. I guess I should've added that too, lol.

 

[Dangerous]

Like I said, I never said you were a noob or a venomnoob.

 

[Arcturus]

Like I said, I never said you were a noob or a venomnoob.

lol, i'm sorry, I made error in my judgement.

Accept my apology.

 

[Dangerous]

That’s alright matey, you need not apologise to me.
We were just exchanging our views on the relevance of a return of EB as Venom.
Obviously we have different view points on this topic, which is what discussion forums are all about.

 

[Venom Drool]

"The symbiote attaching itself to different hosts who have different agendas and life experiences is much more interesting to read than some gimp who is always going on about one thing but never accomplishes it."

the reason that venom started to get crappy is because after his first arc, he was made int o a bad guy who protected innocent people, or whoever he deemed innocent. eddie's motivation is flat, true, after some time, but the issues he can go through (i though adding the cancer bit was genious, and the symbiote taking over completely was brilliant as well), are very interesting. the problem with venom is that they made him dumb. they made him brute force. his origin has spidey webbed to a bell where he would be crushed. pretty entertaining despite you knowing that hed survive it as he always does. venom was a half assed psychopath some time after his second arc.. then he was lethal protector.. blah.

the reasons you stated for making the chracter suck arent the issues that need to be tackled, its the direction they continously put him in. see venom in his last mini series. the story was pretty flat, but when eddie finally arrived, he was actualyl the frekin bad guy. and thats the way he needs to be written

 

[DACrowe]

I say it isn't worth it. Venom has never been as interesting as Green Goblin, GG2, Doc Ock, Hobgoblin, Kingpin, the Lizard, etc. Why the popularity. Oh....that's right. He looks like "evil Spidey." Big deal.

Sure he was great when he was created but he has gone downhill. I think the first Morlun arc (along with Ezekiel) was brilliant. Doesn't mean bringing him back for more (as Morlun was a one-demensional villai nand Ezekiel had run his course very well) was a good diea. It only ruined what was already there and made him very stupid.

We have plenty of great villains. Quit trying to fix this by shoving a square peg into a round hole. Write Venom out (kill him) and move on. If we can live wihtout Harry Osborn anymore, we can certianly "get by" without the peptual one-tracked minded "I wanna eat your BRAINS!!!!!!" Venom then.

 

[Venom Drool]

everyone one of spidey's rogues want to kill him for various reasons, but their main mission, is to destroy him. venom is no differnt in that respect. so why the popularty over the lizard? cause he was pete's teacher or at least someone he could look up to? he was a scientist? hes a father? or cause hes a lizard? venom has the same things going for him too. he looks just as good, hes taken over my a costume which hates spidey which fueled his own hatred, he has a father who rejected him, hes a failed journalist and photographer, he lost his wife, he has cancer, and the suit is driving him mad... whats his issue then? bad writing forcing him into the role of 'good' bad guy.. andeven worse dialogue.. so please.. one dimentional? not any more than lizard, rhino, shocker, vulture, electro etc

 

[DACrowe]

Lizard.

You can do a lot more things with the character. Besides Pete not wanting to hurt him, he can be a vicious monster or a cunning genius. He can posion water supplies, just hunt Spider-Man, attempt cures on himself. And the possibilities you can do with him and his family are always intriguing.

Unfortunately the last several Lizard tales (starting with Jenkins, ironically. He got Doc Ock, GG and Venom but not Lizard) have sucked and butchered the character. I concede that.

The difference with all these characters is all the possibilities you can do with them. GG may want to kill Peter but he enjoys torturing him and finding new ways to do it. To test Peter's etichics, morals, codes and responsibility. He can kidnap his own son, become a businessman, embarass Parker, play misunderstood, cause Peter to be drugged up and become the GG, to break him out of prison, etc.

Venom is this "I WILL KILL YOU SPIDER-MAN AND NO ONE ELSE. I'LL THREATEN YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND WILL NEVER ACT UPON IT. WE MUST FACE ONE ON ONE, YOU SHALL BE RELUCTANT TO DO THAT BECAUSE I AM THAT MUCH OF A THREAT. BUT YOU WILL SHOW UP AND THEN NARROWLY BEAT ME. BUT SINCE I AM "THE GOOD GUY" WHO WANTS TO EAT YOUR BRAINS WE'LL JUST RECYCLE THIS EVERY STORYLINE BECAUSE THERE IS NOWHERE TO GO WITH ME....UNTIL WE CREATE CARNAGE!"

and the less said about Carnage the better. Some villains don't need to show up a lot. Venom really only worked for one type of story and after a few tellings it got old. You can't try new things with someone who wants to kill only Spider-Man in a pre-arranged showdown. How many times can you tell the same exact damn thing?! That is why they created Carnage. Except then Venom just looks stupid because of it.

I very much credit Sam Raimi for using Venom for that single storyline once and then getting rid of him. That is the best thing to do, really.

 

[Dangerous]

the reason that venom started to get crappy is because after his first arc, he was made int o a bad guy who protected innocent people, or whoever he deemed innocent. eddie's motivation is flat, true, after some time, but the issues he can go through (i though adding the cancer bit was genious, and the symbiote taking over completely was brilliant as well), are very interesting. the problem with venom is that they made him dumb. they made him brute force. his origin has spidey webbed to a bell where he would be crushed. pretty entertaining despite you knowing that hed survive it as he always does. venom was a half assed psychopath some time after his second arc.. then he was lethal protector.. blah.

the reasons you stated for making the chracter suck arent the issues that need to be tackled, its the direction they continously put him in. see venom in his last mini series. the story was pretty flat, but when eddie finally arrived, he was actualyl the frekin bad guy. and thats the way he needs to be written

My point is- what is the point to Eddie Brock as Venom if he never kills Spider-man?

Answer- there is No point.

He is a one dimensional all powerful enemy like Morlun, only Morlun actually killed Spidey.
At least he achieved the goal Venom strived for, the goal that defined Venom and initially made him exciting to read. Venom was entertaining back in the day up until ASM#347.
After that not only did the writing of Venom go down hill, but there was no actual point in bringing him back as it just highlighted how he is a failure in that he did not go on to kill Spider-man.

By the mid nineties he was clearly no longer a threat, just a classic rogue brought back over and over to satiate the fanboys. The fact that he was still saying he was going to eat Spider-man in recent Venom arcs like The Hunger, after never getting round to it makes him seem like a ******.
Venom merely being ‘evil‘ is not enough to get it to float. Venom does not have the substance of Norman Osborn, or Doctor Octopus or Adrian Toomes. He is a gimmick villain. Once the gimmick based around killing Spider-man had played out and the threat gone, all you are left w/ is a lame character.

He should have never come off the desert island from ASM# 347, because after that not only was he written crap but he would not go on to fulfil his original plan.
The answer is not to write him as a bad guy, the answer is to kill him off for good because he is an embarrassment.

 

[Dangerous]

Lizard.

You can do a lot more things with the character. Besides Pete not wanting to hurt him, he can be a vicious monster or a cunning genius. He can posion water supplies, just hunt Spider-Man, attempt cures on himself. And the possibilities you can do with him and his family are always intriguing.

Unfortunately the last several Lizard tales (starting with Jenkins, ironically. He got Doc Ock, GG and Venom but not Lizard) have sucked and butchered the character. I concede that.

The difference with all these characters is all the possibilities you can do with them. GG may want to kill Peter but he enjoys torturing him and finding new ways to do it. To test Peter's etichics, morals, codes and responsibility. He can kidnap his own son, become a businessman, embarass Parker, play misunderstood, cause Peter to be drugged up and become the GG, to break him out of prison, etc.

Venom is this "I WILL KILL YOU SPIDER-MAN AND NO ONE ELSE. I'LL THREATEN YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND WILL NEVER ACT UPON IT. WE MUST FACE ONE ON ONE, YOU SHALL BE RELUCTANT TO DO THAT BECAUSE I AM THAT MUCH OF A THREAT. BUT YOU WILL SHOW UP AND THEN NARROWLY BEAT ME. BUT SINCE I AM "THE GOOD GUY" WHO WANTS TO EAT YOUR BRAINS WE'LL JUST RECYCLE THIS EVERY STORYLINE BECAUSE THERE IS NOWHERE TO GO WITH ME....UNTIL WE CREATE CARNAGE!"

and the less said about Carnage the better. Some villains don't need to show up a lot. Venom really only worked for one type of story and after a few tellings it got old. You can't try new things with someone who wants to kill only Spider-Man in a pre-arranged showdown. How many times can you tell the same exact damn thing?! That is why they created Carnage. Except then Venom just looks stupid because of it.

I very much credit Sam Raimi for using Venom for that single storyline once and then getting rid of him. That is the best thing to do, really.

DA you know what you are talking about.

Venom works best as the monster you were not expecting, ready and able to do deal some death.
It's because I am such a big fan of the Michelinie/McFarlane/Larsen era that I think Venom should be killed off now.

I do think having Gargan as Venom right now is a good idea because Venom is no longer Brock the lame-o. Instead w/ Mac it's a different host no longer constricted by the crapness of Brocks failures.
It’s like a fresh start for ‘Venom’ in that he has a validity that Brock/Venom does not.
All Mac is, is a crappy bank robber type villain, and as Venom he is not all that great but him and the symbiote co exist anyway.

 

[Venom Drool]

My point is- what is the point to Eddie Brock as Venom if he never kills Spider-man?

Answer- there is No point.

He is a one dimensional all powerful enemy like Morlun, only Morlun actually killed Spidey.
At least he achieved the goal Venom strived for, the goal that defined Venom and initially made him exciting to read. Venom was entertaining back in the day up until ASM#347.
After that not only did the writing of Venom go down hill, but there was no actual point in bringing him back as it just highlighted how he is a failure in that he did not go on to kill Spider-man.

By the mid nineties he was clearly no longer a threat, just a classic rogue brought back over and over to satiate the fanboys. The fact that he was still saying he was going to eat Spider-man in recent Venom arcs like The Hunger, after never getting round to it makes him seem like a ******.
Venom merely being ‘evil‘ is not enough to get it to float. Venom does not have the substance of Norman Osborn, or Doctor Octopus or Adrian Toomes. He is a gimmick villain. Once the gimmick based around killing Spider-man had played out and the threat gone, all you are left w/ is a lame character.

He should have never come off the desert island from ASM# 347, because after that not only was he written crap but he would not go on to fulfil his original plan.
The answer is not to write him as a bad guy, the answer is to kill him off for good because he is an embarrassment.

and again, i have to disagree. the answer is not to kill him off but to write the chracter as he was originally meant to be written. norman had layers added to him over the years as did ock and the best of his rogues. venom was turned into a one trick pony because because they didnt need to do anything morethan regurgitate storylines for fans who liked him solely for the fight scenes and such. i did enjoy their last confrontation as sworn enemies (kidnapping who he thought to be peter's parents), although i did recognize the lack of depth added to the chracter. your point is taken as far as his lack of a goal other than to kill spidey, more so since having him back out of that goal, although the answer is not to kill him. But work him as spidey's other villans have been worked. i can easily dream a plotline for a venom arc that involves such layers being added, and the attmpt to do so was in ssensational, his cancer bit story. it worked well i thought. it should eddie this poor soul trappepd in an alien in order to survive for he had cancer. they could easily turn this into a cunning plot of deceptionin order to screw with peter's mind, but sadly, it appears like theyll never adress the issue.

i fear you are blinded by the hatred for the chracter as his over exposure warrants. but for to say just kill him off, hes run his course is probably the worst suggestion to date. almost as bad as making him an fbi agent or whatever with a licence to kill. the chracter COULD work. and thats the point.

 

[Shockdingo]

I think almost any character could work with proper writing, I'm a big fan of venom, but I do agree he's taken bad and lame turns and repitition, to deny such would be foolish. I feel people killing off characters is too common these days and it's never perminant and just leads to more problems down the road; if he's written better and outside the box I think it could work, I don't mind the no targeting innocents like Electro, but he shouldn't go back to being an anti-hero again. Sure I bought up and enjoyed a lot of the stuff churned out, but the one fact that he doesn't chuck old ladies off bridges makes him interesting to me. I like the idea of a villain not being a Snidely Whiplash type of guy who is evil just because. That's my .02 and a pocket full of lint.

 

[Dangerous]

Oh dear,

Either you are not comprehending what I have said in my previous posts, or you are just a fanboy oblivious to the notion that Venom/Brock is obsolete as anything other than a joke villain in 2006 onwards.

and again, i have to disagree. the answer is not to kill him off but to write the chracter as he was originally meant to be written. norman had layers added to him over the years as did ock and the best of his rogues. venom was turned into a one trick pony because because they didnt need to do anything morethan regurgitate storylines for fans who liked him solely for the fight scenes and such.

The problem is not so much how crappy Venom/Brock has been written since the early nineties, it’s that he never actually killed Spider-man. I’m not saying he should have necessarily killed webhead, but once it’s clear he is never going to do it, you take away the one single exciting element in a one dimensional character- Danger.

Venom did not ‘turn’ into a one trick pony.
He was a frikkin one trick pony since his conception, that’s all he was ever meant to be!
That’s fine for a while, but that type of villain can’t run forever because once the threat has evaporated there is no depth left to back him up.
Morlun is the same type of villain great for a while but then you gotta get rid of them.
I’m not saying it was the right thing to do (Morlun killing SM), but at least Morlun’s full run had a goal and climaxed w/ him reaching that goal.

Norman Osborn was far more interesting and complex a character than Eddie Brock from the get go.
He developed amnesia as time went on and would invent new ways to torture PP, but everything that makes Norman great as not only an enemy, but also as a character in his own right is apparent by ASM#40.

your point is taken as far as his lack of a goal other than to kill spidey, more so since having him back out of that goal, although the answer is not to kill him. But work him as spidey's other villans have been worked.

OK, well this is your point of view and I have regurgitated mine numerous times as seen above, and in my previous posts.

Venom does not have the depth of character that SM’s other big league rogues do.
So to add some now after all this time, and take the character in a different direction to just ‘I must kill Spider-man’, basically is like pissing on the original vision of Brock/Venom and saying that he was lame.
He was not lame.
He was great and had purpose for a few short years, but this type of character cannot evolve because in the era that defined him, he was a one dimensional killing machine.
Deviate from that concept and he ceases to be Venom.
It’s really that simple.

If Venom/Brock had never seen a page of a regular continuity since ASM#347, think of how amazing his legacy would have been. He would be thought of as one of the greatest, if not the all time greatest Spider-man villain ever.

A good example of this is Roderick Kingsley, the original Hobgoblin.
Although Roger Stern did not get to finish the Hobgoblin Saga himself, Roderick has not seen a page of 616 continuity in almost ten years, and he is all the better for it.
He is one of the all time legend top 5 villains without dispute.

Another analogy I could draw upon is of that of a boxer.
If Iron Mike had retired in 1988 after defeating Micheal Spinks for the undisputed heavyweight crown, EVERYONE would say Mike Tyson was the greatest heavyweight ever.
What happened instead-
He kept going and became a joke, sound familiar?

You think Venom/Brock should evolve as a character, but I just see it as every new comic that comes out that features Venom/Brock and he does not kill Spider-man, then the lamer he is because he never gets to achieve his original mission. A mission that entirely defined who Venom was.
I love the late eighties/ early nineties Venom , but Brock returning to the symbiote, ESPECIALLY because the only reason this is happening is as a movie tie-in just makes this thing lame in so many ways it‘s not even funny.

i fear you are blinded by the hatred for the chracter as his over exposure warrants.

Not blinded by hatred, just aware of the short comings of the character (short comings that are intrinsic to who Venom is) that are continually exposed the longer Venom/Brock keeps making comebacks.
Short comings that you seem to be unable to grasp are part of who he is.

but for to say just kill him off, hes run his course is probably the worst suggestion to date. almost as bad as making him an fbi agent or whatever with a licence to kill. the chracter COULD work. and thats the point.

Wrong

Killing him is not the worst suggestion to date.
It is the only logical direction for the character if you can get your head around the constrictions that are integral to his design, constrictions that I have explained in detail above.
The character did work for a short time because that was all his creator intended for him.
After ASM#347, David Michelinie was going to have the symbiote jump host and attach to another.
Are you aware of this?
Unfortunately Marvel were breathing down his neck to use Venom again because he had become so popular. Fast forward to today and because of Marvel’s insistence on bringing Venom back time and time again we end up w/ the crap joke character that once represented the great Venom/ Brock .

 

[The Joker]

DACrowe and Dangerous have echoed my sentiments about Venom really well.

At this point, it would be better to kill him off. He's nothing but a merchandising gimmick now. As villains go, he's one of the most overrated in Marvel history. One of Spidey's greatest villains some say. I'd love to know why. He's done nothing of any significance to Peter. Or enriched Peter as a hero or character.

I'll never understand why he's ranked alongside Ock and Goblin. He doesn't deserve it.

 

[DACrowe]

I don't know about that. It is more that he is a projection of Peter's weaknesses and a double for his mistakes without resposnibility. Peter brought that symbiote to earth and gave it these attributes and was selfish with it before spurning it. It found Brock and created something Peter felt responsible for and early on was Pete's unstoppable juggernaut who had every advantage over Pete and would not quit coming until one of them were dead.

In that sense he was an amazing foe...except he lived. AND IT GOT OLD. You cannot write him how he was originally intended, because he was originally intended to be a villain that would show up a few times for dramatic showdowns where he would threaten Pete's loved ones if Pete didn't show up, Pete would reluctantly run away and then reluctantly face Venom and narrowly win. It was a formula that escalated but had one conclusion. Venom or Spidey die.

You can't take him anywhere else which is his problem. So they created Carnage to make Venom an anti-hero and thus the stupidest villain was created and it just brought Venom down. Venom running around now is a joke. He can't be written like he originally was because he will always lose his fights with Spidey and is easily beaten now so what do you do with a character who was just abig pile of hate waiting to unleash on Peter?

He was createad as a one trick pony is the problem. A good villain, but one who is not meant for lots of return value.

He is not as good a villain as GG or Ock or even Harry or Lizard or Hobgoblin or Kingpin or....simply because they offer great new oppurtunities for storytelling and are dynmaic characters who can be used in tons of ways. As opposed to the same formula for Venom which is whne he worked. When you take him out of htat formula, as the last 15 years have shown, he is lamer than Hydroman then....okay maybe not that bad, but still.

 

[Venom Drool]

well i stated my position and my thoughts on how to turn the character around. he was written with one purpose in mind as any other villan was. except their interests evovled.. and venom's didnt. thats all im going to say on that

 

[Dangerous]

The only way I think it would be okay for Eddie Brock to live and not be killed off, would be if he was to never be reunited w/ the symbiote.
Of course this will never happen.
Not when there’s so much money to be made in comic sales from a movie tie in.
That’s why I think he should die.

Hypothetically speaking - if Eddie Brock could be redeveloped as a singular human entity to become a mainstay of the supporting cast who is no longer an enemy of Peters, I think that would be very cool and interesting. That would be the only type of progression that could work for him.

The only we’ll ever see that though, would be in a What If comic.
In which case it would only be one issue, and would be pointless as this would dictate you would not get to see these themes fully developed.

Personally I think having the Symbiote jump host to Mac Gargan is the best editorial/writers decision to come into effect over Venom in the last 15 years of publication.
Lookin forward to ThunderBolts #110...

 

[Venom Drool]

you know. the spot could have been an awesome villan. and hes the spot. so if there ciould be hope for the spot..there could be hope for venom

 

[Dangerous]

Not if you understand the points that have be made on this page that relate to Eddie Brock as Venom. He was great but is now obsolete, and nothing can be done about it.
Venom is cool as Mac Gargan though.

 

[DACrowe]

Personally I'd rather just kill and retire the character. Gargan as Scorpion trying to rebuild his rep. and knowing who Peter was (before the unmasking) was cooler. Or if the symbiote jumps someone new every issue. But I'd rather just get rid of Venom and move on. Just like how I'll be glad if I never see Morlun again either though.

 

[Venom Drool]

Not if you understand the points that have be made on this page that relate to Eddie Brock as Venom. He was great but is now obsolete, and nothing can be done about it.
Venom is cool as Mac Gargan though.

see the only thing i have a problem with, is your idea that nothing can be done about 'fixing' his character.

 

[Dangerous]

Well I've explained why this is the case numerous times.
I guess you just can't comprehend what I am saying for some reason.

 

[Demonstray]

I guess no one remembers "Planet of the Symbiotes" then. With good reason too, seeing as it was crappy

I remember it. I have the comic with one side being "Planet of the Symbiotes" and the other side being Scarlet Spider meets the Lizard.

 

[Venom Drool]

Well I've explained why this is the case numerous times.
I guess you just can't comprehend what I am saying for some reason.

and ive explained how it could be done. i 'comprehend' everything youre saying, but he could be fixed eaisly. and i offered numerous solutions to fixing what is needed