Vicki in the cave

[david icke]

You keep saying "out of character", but what are you basing that on? Certainly not the film, where Alfred makes it pretty clear as the film wears on that he is not thrilled with Bruce's choice of lifestyle.

I don't know how Alfred would know more about Vicki at that point as you say, his judgement would be based on that first and only meeting primarily I would think.
I understand why he does it, it's just that I find it undermines the character of Alfred the confidante, even for the physics of speeded up movie romances, that's a pretty big secret to be giving up to someone when she's only been around for one date with the boss.
And even though there are differences between the movie and comics versions, the character of Alfred is there as the one true and trusted confidant of Bruce.
You and El Payaso
put a lot of stock into Alfred's perceptions, yeah, maybe he is wise and later events prove he is right. But , I would hesitate to call someone wise who made this move after only one meeting with them, any other info they have on the person is hearsay and should not really count for something this big. Surely he would be wise enough to question his own impressions, that they could be wrong after only one meeting.
It's not excactly life or death that Vicki finds out, but it could be for Bruce if the secret is let out, whether to the right person or not, they could give up the secret under duress or slip up.

ok, going to edit this and add more, my computer logs me out if i go on for too long, already has done this..

As for the lack of drama, well I know one person's drama is another's bore fest, but I just feel that any superhero ID reveal should be of some large sweeping gesture or moment as it's a big deal, not just someone walking up a staircase into an awkward moment.
In response to El Payaso about Superman II..Yeah, I wasn't meaning the pink bear trip up literally as being very dramatic, more the build up of LL coming to the realization, Clark still successfully putting her off after she risks her life to reveal it, and then he just gives in and tells her evrything after the bear trip.
The drama I meant was the moment he straightens himslef up and takes his glasses off to face her, good dialoge too.
It's kind of funny and ironic as well, the pink bear trip, he spends all his time concocting the bumbling Clark persona and then does a genuine bumble knocking his glasses off. Maybe makes sense as a subconcious desire, as Lois says 'maybe you didn't want to with your head but with your heart.'

ok, have to edit and add again, got logged out a 2nd time

As for the Batman Begins reveal, you both make good points, like the fact that if he died his ID would be revealed anyway, but that's just the guy in love who is busting to tell her giving himself that moment before he possibly dies.
Also, the pont about how Rachel as an assistant DA could just as easily bust Bruce as Vicki as a reporter could spill the beans in a big way, big difference is that Bruce has known Rachel all his life and would have a better handle on whether he could trust her.

edit: One final point, yeah it's a movie, and it has the whole thing of a speeded up movie romance, where large gestures sometimes have to be made even though there has not been that much interaction, with that in mind the Alfred reveal can be accepted by myself a little more, but given that he is the confidante character it just feels a little wrong to me, if it had been a Rachel type character , who Bruce had known all his life, it would have sat better with me.

 

[The Guard]

That's just it. Alfred isn't "Alfred the confidant" in BATMAN. He's almost the opposite of that, someone Bruce DOESN'T confide in, someone who has to pull teeth to get Bruce to even acknowledge his human emotions or his obsessions. He's almost treated like a servant in the movie, not so much like a friend or mentor, and that's another point of his arc, that he has tired of simply going with the flow. So yes, his actions undermine any major "confidant" element the character may have had. Tim Burton and the writers gave him an entirely different purpose and role in BATMAN than he ever had in the comics to that point: questioning Bruce's actions and trying to better his life.

I'm not even going to get into whether it's entirely logical or appropriate for Alfred to trust Vicki after meeting her once. Again, it's a movie. Relationships tend to unfold differently than they do in real life. I liked her, as an audience member, immediately, and she never gave much reason to believe she was anything but trustworthy. Nevermind that she pretty obviously figured out Bruce was Batman within the short time they all knew each other. Alfred apparently felt he knew her well enough not to lie to her when she already obviously knew the truth.

You talk about a sweeping dramatic moment missing to the sequence...what about Bruce's "He's out there right now...and I've gotta to go to work", followed by the now-classic "suit up sequence"? You don't consider that sweeping? Or did you just want some sort of dramatic "unmasking" overall?

I think there's plenty of drama and melodrama alike to that scene. Quite a bit more than the few lines in BATMAN BEGINS and a leap off the roof provide. The same "I have work to do, even though I'd like to be with you" element is there, but I think Bruce's conflicts are summed up so much better than they are in BATMAN BEGINS, where what is summed up in its reveal sequence is basically "Hey, Rachel, it's me, Bruce, and I might be going to my death".

 

[david icke]

That's just it. Alfred isn't "Alfred the confidant" in BATMAN. He's almost the opposite of that, someone Bruce DOESN'T confide in, someone who has to pull teeth to get Bruce to even acknowledge his human emotions or his obsessions. He's almost treated like a servant in the movie, not so much like a friend or mentor, and that's another point of his arc, that he has tired of simply going with the flow. So yes, his actions undermine any major "confidant" element the character may have had. Tim Burton and the writers gave him an entirely different purpose and role in BATMAN than he ever had in the comics to that point: questioning Bruce's actions and trying to better his life.

Yeah, I just meant 'the confidant' as in Bruce didn't send him back to Buckingham Palace when he wanted to start his top secret operations. Bruce doesn't exactly share his emotions all the time with Alfred in the comics either.

I'm not even going to get into whether it's entirely logical or appropriate for Alfred to trust Vicki after meeting her once. Again, it's a movie. Relationships tend to unfold differently than they do in real life. I liked her, as an audience member, immediately, and she never gave much reason to believe she was anything but trustworthy. Nevermind that she pretty obviously figured out Bruce was Batman within the short time they all knew each other. Alfred apparently felt he knew her well enough not to lie to her when she already obviously knew the truth.

Yeah, I was concedeing that to an extent by talking about it in terms of 'speeded up movie romances' and how you can accept relationships between characters being stronger than they would be in real life as movies have to take liberties sometimes to have the emotional beats.
Still though, there are just too many factors for me personally for it to sit right with me. One meeting, the fact she's a reporter, Bruce's life being at risk if the secret gets out one way or another. You can look at it two ways, Alfred the wise father figure who takes a risk and it works out alright, or the rash busybody who lets the cat out of the bag to help his boss settle down somewhat but potentially puts his life at risk while doing so.

You talk about a sweeping dramatic moment missing to the sequence...what about Bruce's "He's out there right now...and I've gotta to go to work", followed by the now-classic "suit up sequence"? You don't consider that sweeping? Or did you just want some sort of dramatic "unmasking" overall?

Basically what I meant was it feels a little flat, it just feels like the Butler has led her into a room of the house she wasn't supposed to know about, not that she's been let into a legendary secret.
I view the suit up as being seperate from that.

I think there's plenty of drama and melodrama alike to that scene. Quite a bit more than the few lines in BATMAN BEGINS and a leap off the roof provide. The same "I have work to do, even though I'd like to be with you" element is there, but I think Bruce's conflicts are summed up so much better than they are in BATMAN BEGINS, where what is summed up in its reveal sequence is basically "Hey, Rachel, it's me, Bruce, and I might be going to my death".

It's not just that though, the love of his life is convinced he's wasting his life and doesn't care about her or her deadly serious problems, whereas he has been secretly saving her life and many others. With that one line he gets to make her happy in finding out while he gets some peace of mind out of spilling the beans too. I think it's good because that whole situation is dealt with in one line, it's simple and effective and I think the set-up of it is well done.