Civil War Was Cap being able to hold his own in battle against Iron Man believable to you?

[Drizzle]

Cap held his own against Ultron, who was actually TRYING to kill him. He didn't have the upper hand, but he didn't get his ass handed to him either. It seemed plenty believable to me that he would hold his own against Tony, who was only trying to subdue him.

 

[scarlet-witch]

Cap held his own against Ultron, who was actually TRYING to kill him. He didn't have the upper hand, but he didn't get his ass handed to him either. It seemed plenty believable to me that he would hold his own against Tony, who was only trying to subdue him.

Good point, I didn't even think of that

 

[FlareKnight]

I think it worked because of how they sold it.

It didn't feel like Cap was holding his own as much as...desperately trying to keep his friend alive. He had maybe one moment where by himself he was doing a good job against Iron Man, but as a whole he either needed Bucky helping him or was struggling to hold out.

The fight was good just because of pure emotions. Iron Man became basically a near unstoppable force. The fight getting to the point where I wasn't sure if Cap was going to make it out alive.

They did a good job showing the danger of a pissed off Iron Man. Even injured and almost blind with anger, he came close to managing what he wanted to do there. Great job.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Cap held his own against Ultron, who was actually TRYING to kill him. He didn't have the upper hand, but he didn't get his ass handed to him either. It seemed plenty believable to me that he would hold his own against Tony, who was only trying to subdue him.

Agreed. Ultron much tougher too.

 

[harryoscop]

Personally, no, I don't think it was realistic. But I understand why it went down the way it did.

 

[Steamteck]

It worked for me . Circumstances to Cap's advantage. Twp on one in an confined space against an injured irrationally angry Tony who was obsessed on one opponant

 

[3dman27]

I don't see anything even vaguely wrong with Cap holding his own against Spider-man. Spidey seems to have a physical edge, but its nowhere near the vast thing it is in the comics. Marginal strength and speed advantage can be more than compensated for via superior skill and experience ( and possibly durability, though that is vaguer ).

( Unlike, again, the comics, where the physical differential is so vast that skill and experience really shouldn't matter. All the skill in the world doesn't really matter when the other guy perceives you in slow motion the whole time. )

you have described spidey's speed perfectly but does the the government in the MCU know tony was one of the creators of ultron ? if so, why would the feds trust him

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Personally, no, I don't think it was realistic. But I understand why it went down the way it did.

Why not realistic?

 

[metaphysician]

you have described spidey's speed perfectly but does the the government in the MCU know tony was one of the creators of ultron ? if so, why would the feds trust him

. . .what does that have to do with anything I was talking about whatsoever?

 

[3dman27]

I was wondering about that point

 

[The Caped Knight]

Logically Cap is a highly trained superhuman soldier with years of experience in all manners of combat. So yes it's very plausible that he could hold his own against Iron Man for the sole reason Tony isn't a hand to hand fighter. Tony's advantage is through the use of gadgetry and science seeing algorithmic patterns and mathematical equations in fighting which is why he told Friday to analyze Cap's fight pattern.

The film showed an equal amount of fairness to both sides making it a draw. Steve didn't use the killing blow when he had the chance and Tony either.

In a no holds bar fight my money is sole on Steve Rogers.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Cap able to fight Ultron and his robots so if he can fight machines he can fight Iron Man.

 

[3dman27]

Cap able to fight Ultron and his robots so if he can fight machines he can fight Iron Man.

logical but you'd think hitting an armored suit would be like hitting a taxicab

 

[Neno_Kos]

Hold his own? Nope.

Thing is Marvel downgraded Iron Man strenght in movie over years. So I guess make sense for everyone else. Likely problem for me was I rewatched Iron Man movie before Civil War. And it just doesnt make damn sense any kind of human can be able to hold his own against him.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yes imo:

-Cap and WS are much stronger in the films than their comic book counterparts.
-IM was already injured from the airport battle not long before (his arm was in a sling, which he simply removed when putting on the armor, that doesn't mean that it was actually HEALED by that point).
-He was essentially fighting out of rage/anger, so he wasn't thinking completely logically.
-Cap disabled one of his repulsor boots, so he couldn't fly at 100% capacity.
-They were fighting in a relatively smaller/enclosed underground bunker, so he couldn't maneuver around as well as he usually does anyway.
-He wasn't trying to kill Cap, so he was holding back on that front.

And finally, it STILL took TWO supersoldiers (who both also have military training/combat experience as well) working together to BARELY eek out a win. And even then, it took Cap taking advantage of Tony getting distracted (by stopping to turn around and kick Bucky) to blindside him. And Bucky lost his mechanical arm in the process of the battle (plus Cap looked pretty tired/beat up as well by the end).

Really it seemed like the film went out of it's way to give multiple plausible justifications for Tony losing that fight.

People keep saying this but there are plenty of examples in the comics of Cap's super strength. He's stronger than Batman folks. Yes it's true.


Punching out Iron Spider-Man

Bench pressing 1100 pounds and still easily carrying on a conversation.

Lifting up and breaking out of being chained to a bit eagle statue.

Lifting a giant fallen tree off a guy two handed and tossing it away

Pulling a helicopter down from the sky using a grapple.

Throwing a big slab of concrete three stories into the air at a building.

 

[TheVileOne]

For the logic the film set up, yeah it was fine for me.

First, this Cap has been shown to be MUCH stronger than his 616 and Ultimate counterparts (dude curled a helicopter trying to lift off for pete's sake), and Iron Man was shown to be severely compromised in his armor and was fighting with a broken arm. Not only that, but I never got the sense he was trying to kill Steve, only Bucky.

So at the end of the day, yeah it worked for me.

Not at all. In the comics he yanked a helicopter out of the sky with a rope. He can bench press 1100 pounds and carry on a casual conversation.

People are simply ignoring his amazing feats of strength in the comics.

 

[3dman27]

Not at all. In the comics he yanked a helicopter out of the sky with a rope. He can bench press 1100 pounds and carry on a casual conversation.

People are simply ignoring his amazing feats of strength in the comics.

I don' t think they're IGNORING it,so much as they are DIERENCIATING the movie Cap and classic Cap

 

[AlluAllu]

Keep in mind that comics often have inconsistencies.

 

[TheVileOne]

People are saying he's stronger in the movies than in the comics...well no not necessarily.

In the comics he's bested Spider-Man in combat. He's shown super strength as well.

The super soldier serum literally turns you into a super soldier, not a peak human being. it makes you faster and stronger than any normal man. It allowed him to freaking survive in a block of ice for decades without aging.

 

[metaphysician]

People are saying he's stronger in the movies than in the comics...well no not necessarily.

In the comics he's bested Spider-Man in combat. He's shown super strength as well.

The super soldier serum literally turns you into a super soldier, not a peak human being. it makes you faster and stronger than any normal man. It allowed him to freaking survive in a block of ice for decades without aging.

Okay, no. Yes, in the comics he has occasions where he shows super strength, or beats Spider-man. These are either specific periods where he actually has super strength, unlike the rest of the time where he explicitly doesn't; or periods of bad writing.

Which is to say, yes, you can make any character sound insane by cherry picking the dozen biggest outlier feats from a 60+ year career. This. . . just means a character has a 60+ year career.

Movie Cap is notably more superhuman than 616 Cap, in that 616's consistent performance level is "peak human", while Movie Cap's consistent performance level is "notably superhuman". Throw away the most extreme 5% of outliers from 616's career, and you have left "peak human, comparable to other peak human comic characters". Throw away the 5% most extreme of outliers for Movie Cap, and he's. . . still superhuman, because the 5% most extreme of feats are pretty consistent with the next 45% of feats.

 

[TheVileOne]

Okay, no. Yes, in the comics he has occasions where he shows super strength, or beats Spider-man. These are either specific periods where he actually has super strength, unlike the rest of the time where he explicitly doesn't; or periods of bad writing.

Which is to say, yes, you can make any character sound insane by cherry picking the dozen biggest outlier feats from a 60+ year career. This. . . just means a character has a 60+ year career.

Movie Cap is notably more superhuman than 616 Cap, in that 616's consistent performance level is "peak human", while Movie Cap's consistent performance level is "notably superhuman". Throw away the most extreme 5% of outliers from 616's career, and you have left "peak human, comparable to other peak human comic characters". Throw away the 5% most extreme of outliers for Movie Cap, and he's. . . still superhuman, because the 5% most extreme of feats are pretty consistent with the next 45% of feats.

In 616, he's consistently shown superhuman strength for decades.

I think this really just comes from Spider-Man fans who are upset that Captain America was able best their favorite character in hand-to-hand combat on film.

This is from an issue of The Avengers in around 2002. Cap basically masters fighting in zero-g in seconds:

Beast says Captain America can master any weapon in seconds:

Outsmarting and knocking down the Armadillo into a trap:

In 1990s, going toe to toe with and defeating Lady Deathstrike. Here is the power description from Marvel.com for Lady Deathstrike:

Lady Deathstrike is a cyborg with augmented strength, speed, agility, endurance, and reflexes. Her skeleton has been artificially laced with molecules of the metal Adamantium, rendering her bones virtually unbreakable. Deathstrike is able to cybernetically interface her consciousness with external computer systems, allowing for direct data access to her brain’s memory centers and granting her the ability to remotely operate such systems. Deathstrike’s cybernetic systems also include a self-repair and reconfiguration program, allowing her to automatically repair damage to her cyborg body. The more damage she endures, the longer her reconfiguration program will take to repair her body.

Cap bests and overpowers Beast.

Uses pressure strikes to shove and trip HULK out of a room. He kicks him from behind his leg and is able to use his own momentum to throw the Hulk. THE HULK.

Cap beats up and knocks out THE RHINO

This all seems pretty consistent for the last several decades.

 

[metaphysician]

Almost none of which have any relevance to the question "Is 616 Cap peak human?" The only one where he shows "clear" superhuman power is the Rhino fight. . . and since he'd need to be well beyond Spider-man level to do what he's doing there, to obvious interpretation is "bad writing".

Its not just "can I find a questionable feat in each decade" its, "how many feats are there total, and how many of them have him superhuman". A character like Cap has a couple dozen issue appearances *every year*- you can have one "looks awfully superhuman" scene each year and still not touch the overall trend.

Also, your contradicting Marvel's own narrative canon, whereby Captain America has been, and still is, described as "peak human". Even if Marvel changes this tomorrow, it doesn't change that throughout almost all his prior career, he's been explicitly described as peak human, which puts a conflict up with any effort to claim that he's "really" superhuman.

 

[TheVileOne]

Almost none of which have any relevance to the question "Is 616 Cap peak human?" The only one where he shows "clear" superhuman power is the Rhino fight. . . and since he'd need to be well beyond Spider-man level to do what he's doing there, to obvious interpretation is "bad writing".

Considering he's been able to best Spider-Man in hand-to-hand combat as well, that seems pretty consistent does it not? If he can beat Rhino in a fight, and he can go toe-to-toe and beat up Spider-Man.

Its not just "can I find a questionable feat in each decade" its, "how many feats are there total, and how many of them have him superhuman". A character like Cap has a couple dozen issue appearances *every year*- you can have one "looks awfully superhuman" scene each year and still not touch the overall trend.

There are quite many feats as proven here. Besides the physical confrontations with other super-powered individuals, his feats of bench-pressing 1,100 pounds no problem and casually talking at the same time.

Also, your contradicting Marvel's own narrative canon, whereby Captain America has been, and still is, described as "peak human". Even if Marvel changes this tomorrow, it doesn't change that throughout almost all his prior career, he's been explicitly described as peak human, which puts a conflict up with any effort to claim that he's "really" superhuman.

He's clearly beyond a peak human because the serum grants him abilities that a peak human wouldn't have.

There can be semantics every which way, but history has proven it is believable for him to be able to challenge the likes of Spider-Man in hand-to-hand combat along with Iron Man.

 

[3dman27]

People are saying he's stronger in the movies than in the comics...well no not necessarily.

In the comics he's bested Spider-Man in combat. He's shown super strength as well.

The super soldier serum literally turns you into a super soldier, not a peak human being. it makes you faster and stronger than any normal man. It allowed him to freaking survive in a block of ice for decades without aging.

My guiess some writers don't understand how the serum is supposed to work

 

[metaphysician]

The Super Soldier Serum has, in the comics, been literally and in-as-many-words described as making Cap "peak human" for well over 50 years. Arguing that, despite the writers consistently describing it that way, that they've "actually" been wrong this whole time. . . its like arguing that Thor doesn't *actually* wield Mjolnir. Especially when Cap is shown consistently having even, competitive fights with other people in the peak human set ( or slightly above/below ).