The Dark Knight Was Joker Okay With Becoming A Martyr?

[LightningFlash]

I haven't found a thread that discusses this, and it was something that made me think the other night when I watched The Dark Knight on HBO.

Yes, it's been a while since TDK came out in theatres, but it was something that I was just thinking about, and didn't have before; so when Joker was talking to Dent in the hospital, he had his chaos speech, and forced Dent to point the gun at his forehead.

So...my question is this...did he have an idea that maybe Dent would've killed him? Was he fine at being a martyr to only push Dent over the edge(even though Dent went over the edge without killing Joker)?

 

[Brother Jack]

Dent killing Joker would have further corrupted his image, the image that Gotham had come to rely on. At the same though Joker wouldn't be seen as a martyr, the citizens of Gotham would probably be happy that he was gone. But yes to answer your question Joker was perfectly fine in self-destruction if it meant the destruction of Gotham.

 

[CConn]

I think by that point he knew exactly what Dent was going to do.

But Happy Jack makes a good point as well.

 

[Sonic1002]

He was willing to die to corrupt Batman and get him to cross the line, so I'd assume that the same would go for Dent.

 

[ronny]

He can't be a martyr because he never had a motive or a cause. It kept changing. A martyr dies for very specific reasons. But Joker's logic was a cluster of different stuff. So the question itself is faulty.

 

[Hound55]

Joker was devoted to chaos and anarchy though... Batman was pretty much all that was left in terms of the big three symbold of order.

If you're talking about when Joker was falling, laughing, to his death then it would have meant Bats would have crossed the line, Dent was already over and Gordon had already showed major signs of folding to the stress just from what happened to Dent.

 

[mothy]

the joker pretty much will become a martyr. he's locked up, but he's sure to inspire more freaks to come out of the woodwork.

 

[El Payaso]

He can't be a martyr because he never had a motive or a cause. It kept changing. A martyr dies for very specific reasons. But Joker's logic was a cluster of different stuff. So the question itself is faulty.

Of course he had a cause; to show that everything and everyone is corruptible. To destroy everything that human holds as vualuable. That never changed.

Joker weanted to die for a specific reason: to show that those "incorruptible men" people held as heroes and inspiration are as corruptible as anyone else; it only takes a harder push.

 

[Brother Jack]

I think by that point he knew exactly what Dent was going to do.

He knew that Dent would turn bad and start taking revenge, but he couldn't have known whether or not he was going to kill him. The coin dictated that, and he had a 50/50 chance.

 

[Travesty]

Of course he wanted Dent to kill him, just like he wanted Batman to kill him on the Batpod. He wanted to make the heroes of Gotham become corruptible, although, after Dent spared his life, it really didn't matter, as he knew Dent was blind on rage, and was ready to kill anybody responsible for Rachels Death. If Dent killed him or not, it wouldn't matter, as The Joker would've got his point across either way.

 

[zedhatch]

The Joker's completely insane, I think the problem here is people are assigning rational thought to an irrational individual. Sure he was smart and could plan well (as evidenced by his breakout of Gotham jail) but I don't think you can assign the idea he was thinking about dieing or not in that situation. He was just there, went with the flow of the moment, no thought about death or the consiquences.

 

[Travesty]

The Joker's completely insane, I think the problem here is people are assigning rational thought to an irrational individual. Sure he was smart and could plan well (as evidenced by his breakout of Gotham jail) but I don't think you can assign the idea he was thinking about dieing or not in that situation. He was just there, went with the flow of the moment, no thought about death or the consiquences.

I see what you were saying at first, but I have to disagree with the last statement. I don't think he was just "going with the flow", as he gave Dent the gun, and that should show you purpose. There was motivation around, and it was the same motivation when he was taunting Batman on the Batpod while walking towards him. He wanted both of them to become corruptible, and break their rules. But like I said, in the end, it didn't matter with Dent, because he was hell bent on destruction.

And to tell you the truth, the whole hospital scene was just setup to show the transformation into Two-Face. We see why he started using the coin, and how loyal he was to it, and of course, his blind rage.

 

[El Payaso]

The Joker's completely insane, I think the problem here is people are assigning rational thought to an irrational individual. Sure he was smart and could plan well (as evidenced by his breakout of Gotham jail) but I don't think you can assign the idea he was thinking about dieing or not in that situation. He was just there, went with the flow of the moment, no thought about death or the consiquences.

Yes and no.

Sure, he was just there living the moment and had a great capacity of re-adaptation but he had a clear purpose behind exposing his life. The fact that he is insane doesn't mean there are no logic behind his actions. And I'd say the Joker is one of those characters who are able to really question the term "insane." I think it was in "Arkham Asylum" comic that someone said that maybe he's "super-sane" and it's infact the rest of us who're not as suitable to live in this world as he is.


I think he risked his life with Dent to make him a killer and to proive him that he was serious about his anarchic cause.

 

[mothy]

the joker is not afraid of death. he's more than willing to die to show the world it's true colours. but like all people, he naturally has a sense of survivial to continue his crusade. but if he dies in the process of spreading his anarchy, so be it.

he survives death often, but i don't really think it's all luck with him. there's more to him than that. he has a heightened sensory perception. his mind is racing by at great speed, calculating every possible outcome. either meticulously planned beforehand or in the heat of the moment. he's capable at both. even if something goes wrong in his plan, he just laughs it off. it just adds to the thrill.

he takes a risk, but they are calculated in some way. such as standing in front of the oncoming batpod. it's an insane thing to do and he's more than willing to take the hit, but in the back of his mind, he would know batman would stand down.

he's a straightforward but very complex character.

 

[LightningFlash]

Wow, I'm surprised this thread stayed on, lol.

But I'm liking everyone's opinions on this. I thought he would have, in a sense, become a "martyr" because he's for chaos and destruction and tried to make a follower out of Dent.

And Joker was also right, he had no plans, because he knew he could have lived or could have died and was fine with both. He was okay of dying, so that too could be another sign of being a martyr.

 

[El Payaso]

the joker is not afraid of death. he's more than willing to die to show the world it's true colours. but like all people, he naturally has a sense of survivial to continue his crusade. but if he dies in the process of spreading his anarchy, so be it.

he survives death often, but i don't really think it's all luck with him. there's more to him than that. he has a heightened sensory perception. his mind is racing by at great speed, calculating every possible outcome. either meticulously planned beforehand or in the heat of the moment. he's capable at both. even if something goes wrong in his plan, he just laughs it off. it just adds to the thrill.

he takes a risk, but they are calculated in some way. such as standing in front of the oncoming batpod. it's an insane thing to do and he's more than willing to take the hit, but in the back of his mind, he would know batman would stand down.

he's a straightforward but very complex character.

I agree that he's willing to die but ONLY if that makes a point. When he's robbing the bank at the beginning and the manager is shooting, he ran to protect himself from the bullets. Far from his "hit me" act.

Makes me think of all those terrorists who die in order to make a political/ideological statement through an act of terrorism.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

He's crazy, he didnt give a **** either way

 

[El Payaso]

As I said, "crazy" is here a mere label. Is he "crazy" as in "wrong but not caring about it"?

He might be labeled as "crazy" - "crazy" as in widly anti-social for no reason at all - but he gave more than a ****. If he didn't gave a **** about anything he wouldn't have bothered in the first place.

 

[mothy]

I agree that he's willing to die but ONLY if that makes a point. When he's robbing the bank at the beginning and the manager is shooting, he ran to protect himself from the bullets. Far from his "hit me" act.

oh, absolutely. like all humans, he has a survival instict. in that situation, it's either stay where you are and die, or take your chance and run. if he's going to die, he's going to want to do it whilst proving a point. not in a rather pathetic manner such as a shotgun blast. he's be no different to the other deceased clowns in the robbery. the joker is a showman. if the time came, he'd rather die in an extravagant fashion. he definitely does not want to die at the very beginning of one of his schemes. he's still got a lot to prove to the city.

 

[ultimatefan]

Joker was ready to die, but I don´t think he saw himself as a martyr in the traditional sense. He wasn´t concerned about making the world a better place, just destroy everything he could for his own twisted sense of amusement and make all of us look bad in the process.

 

[El Payaso]

oh, absolutely. like all humans, he has a survival instict. in that situation, it's either stay where you are and die, or take your chance and run. if he's going to die, he's going to want to do it whilst proving a point. not in a rather pathetic manner such as a shotgun blast. he's be no different to the other deceased clowns in the robbery. the joker is a showman. if the time came, he'd rather die in an extravagant fashion. he definitely does not want to die at the very beginning of one of his schemes. he's still got a lot to prove to the city.

Basically we agree on everything.