WaTX Season 2 Unused Plans

[Havok83]

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=208529275849072&comments

LUCAS: Towards the end of season one, Mr. Sinister took the DNA samples from Scott and Jean. Would we have seen Cable and/or X-Man in season two? What kind of role would he have had in the show?

JOSH: The goal with Season 2 was to create our version of a season-long Age of Apocalypse story, much in the same way as Season 1 was inspired by “Days of Future Past.” Cable / X-Man were obviously very connected to that storyline and that Age of Apocalypse world, so your guess is correct. We had some plans for Cable (and even a design) although we were still hammering out his exact role in the show.


LUCAS: How was Emma Frost's return going to happen?

JOSH: Wait, wait, wait, who said Emma was coming back?

Man, this was actually one of the coolest ideas that we had during development… okay I guess I’ll give you this one. HUGE SPOILER AHEAD that doesn’t matter anymore.

The thought was that just as Emma shattered and released the Phoenix Force into the aether, she was able to reach out and implant her consciousness on Jean. Through the beginning of the second season episodes, we were seeding some very subtle hints about this—showing a few of Emma’s mannerisms, memories, and knowledge seeping out into Jean’s thoughts and actions. Ultimately we planned to show Jean realizing what had happened, but deciding to keep Emma repressed—imprisoned essentially—in her mind, until some critical moment when Jean would finally realize the need for Emma and help to revive her. We were also planning to homage the memorable scene from the comics of Beast rebuilding Emma’s shattered diamond form.



LUCAS: Would we ever see Professor X come out of the coma in the present day?

JOSH: Yes. This was planned for the beginning of the Season 2 finale. With some…. complications.


LUCAS: How would the show's Age of Apocalypse differ from the iconic comic storyline?

JOSH: The comics treated AoA as an alternate present should Charles Xavier have been killed before forming the X-Men, rather than as a possible alternate future. Part of our task in adapting the story was figuring out which elements to pull into our present day storyline and how we were building towards this dark future. Greg, Boyd and I also did a lot of work fleshing out the details of that Age of Apocalypse future, including (amongst many other things) how and where the Infinites were created and how Apocalypse was using them to exercise an iron fist over the world.


LUCAS: Besides Havok, Deadpool, and Magik, which were all announced to premiere in season two, were there any other new characters we would've seen in season two?

JOSH: To quote Emma, “Yes. Many.” I hesitate to dive into all the other characters that would have appeared, because I don’t think it’ll do anything other than make folks even angrier and more depressed that season 2 isn’t happening. But I’ll give you a few, because I’m cool like that.

Unus the Untouchable
Nemesis (aka Holocaust)
Sunfire


LUCAS: Also, would we have seen Cyclops start a relationship with Emma? If so, how would Jean take it?
JOSH: This was actually still a bit up in the air when we closed down shop. Part of the plan for Cyclops’s arc in the present day was to start to return him to the way that he used to be—a hero and a born leader—now that Jean is safely back on the team. We were even going to introduce a new costume for him, putting him back in the blue and yellow as he shed the black and grey of his mourning. We’d designed that costume as well as a Yellow and Blue look for Jean, both inspired by the Jim Lee era of X-Men comics, some of my favorite costumes for them. The Jean one in particular was one of my favorites that we’d ever done.


But part of Cyclops was of course going to be pining for Emma, and Jean (being a psychic and, you know, a somewhat observant gal) would certainly pick up on this. And it would likely play into the timing and manner of Emma’s return.

 

[EvilClareToo]

Damn it!!!!!!! That all sounded awesome! Aughhh. Marvel and your stupid financing!!!!

 

[Havok83]

I love Jean's costume. SOOOOO much better than TAS' take on the costume

 

[Panthro]

Interesting ideas & designs. Jean looks kinda stoned though in the far left of the pic that's the 4 card model of her redesign.

But I can't help laughing at Part of the plan for Cyclops’s arc in the present day was to start to return him to the way that he used to be—a hero and a born leader—now that Jean is safely back on the team. As Dread pointed out season 1 never showed anything to suggest Cycke was ever a leader or hero, but instead chose to play him as a life long emotionally crippled man-child and borderline psychopath, anytime Fine or any of the guys involved in the show's production says something about them making Scott his normal self - on a show that was designed to hump Wolverine's leg - it rings false and comes off as unintentionally funny.

 

[Zant]

Interesting ideas & designs. Jean looks kinda stoned though in the far left of the pic that's the 4 card model of her redesign.

But I can't help laughing at Part of the plan for Cyclops’s arc in the present day was to start to return him to the way that he used to be—a hero and a born leader—now that Jean is safely back on the team. As Dread pointed out season 1 never showed anything to suggest Cycke was ever a leader or hero, but instead chose to play him as a life long emotionally crippled man-child and borderline psychopath, anytime Fine or any of the guys involved in the show's production says something about them making Scott his normal self - on a show that was designed to hump Wolverine's leg - it rings false and comes off as unintentionally funny.

I remember episode 12 Sinister says that Cyclops was Xavier's Prized student and the teachers pet so that will suggest he did something right in the show even though they did not show it

As for season 2, well you have not seen it

 

[Panthro]

I remember episode 12 Sinister says that Cyclops was Xavier's Prized student and the teachers pet so that will suggest he did something right in the show even though they did not show it

Talk is cheap.

As for season 2, well you have not seen it

None of us ever will, but I still highly doubt these claims of Cyclops becoming a real hero again on a show that was basically *********ion for Wolverine fans and wouldn't even allow him to be a proper rival for the overrated claw boy.

 

[Zant]

Talk is cheap.


None of us ever will, but I still highly doubt these claims of Cyclops becoming a real hero again on a show that was basically *********ion for Wolverine fans and wouldn't even allow him to be a proper rival for the overrated claw boy.

Lol,talk is cheap but not when it comes from Sinister.I'm sure he knows a thing or two about Cyclops so if he says Cyclops was Charles prized student then I guess he once was.

As for Jean looking stoned,well I guess Emma being in her head has something to do with that .Telepaths are lucky before they die they can transfer their mind into another .Its a shame Emma did not do what Charles did in X men 3 and transfer her mind into someone in coma.

 

[Panthro]

Lol,talk is cheap but not when it comes from Sinister.I'm sure he knows a thing or two about Cyclops so if he says Cyclops was Charles prized student then I guess he once was.

Judging by the amount of sarcasm in Sinister's voice, I don't think even he really believed it.

As for Jean looking stoned,well I guess Emma being in her head has something to do with that .Telepaths are lucky before they die they can transfer their mind into another .Its a shame Emma did not do what Charles did in X men 3 and transfer her mind into someone in coma.

Possibly.

The are only 2 things I truly regret about this show's demise -

1) We won't get to hear more of Jennifer Hale as Jean

2) We lose the W&TXM caption thread (one of the best this site's ever had).

 

[joshtylen]

yeah I would love more Jennifer Hale.

Rather than continuing WATXM I feel they will just do a new X-Men show but for cheaper (didn't they say it was because of finance?). More in the style of Earth's Mightiest Heroes.

 

[marvelrobbins]

Remember this was originally going to be just a Wolverine show till the creative team convinced marvel to go In the other direction.

X-Men would not work In style of Avengers:Earth's mightest heroes.This Is same problem X-Men evolution had taking X-Men and turning It Into kids show would be bad Idea.They were able to make Avengers work like this X-Men would not work like this.

 

[Panthro]

Too bad we can't get Dread in here and hear some of his thoughts on these unused plans and designs.

 

[EvilClareToo]

Yeah, where's Dread????

 

[Panthro]

Yeah, where's Dread????

He posts in the Young Justice and Fear Itself threads. I guess it's possible he's just no longer interested in the W&TXM threads.

 

[psylockolussus]

The pics looked amazing!

 

[Dread]

Too bad we can't get Dread in here and hear some of his thoughts on these unused plans and designs.

Yeah, where's Dread????

Life's certainly gotten more hectic since I used to devote a lot of energy into criticizing this show back in 2009-2010 or so. Panthro did bring this up in another topic, but to be honest, it was being bored after being rained out of a Sunday afternoon that got me here. But I am glad I did. The unused character designs and words from Josh Fine about the now-defunct W&TXM Season 2 from the middle of June were interesting.

Suffice it to say, no matter WHAT subplot was used for the second season, it would have been a different show for one reason - Craig Kyle would no longer have been the producer/story editor of the show, as he'd been promoted to Marvel Studios film work after season one ended. Losing that major a voice would have effected the show even if all Fine & Co. did was work from his leftover notes. Having seen "AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES" in which Chris Yost and Josh Fine got to story-edit and produce a major TV cartoon without Kyle's involvement in any way, I think season 2 would have been better without his influence. I don't know Kyle and I'm sure he's a very imaginative and passionate writer. But I often saw him as the brawn next to Yost's brain when they would collaborate or do a commentary. Yost was the analytical guy and Kyle was the Mini Michael Bay - the guy who wanted "awesome" even if it made no damn sense. And while a Bay is a useful thing to have in TV or in pitch meetings, sometimes when a story bible is made, maybe some nuance is lost because he just wants to get to the giant robots. That'd have been fine in 1988 or 1998, but for 2008 and on audiences sort of demand more. I imagine working with Kid's WB on "EVOLUTION", who often limited a lot of things he probably wanted to do until the last season at best, much have especially frustrated him.

Plus, Boyd Kirkland died earlier this year, so who knows how his health would have been for a second season.

Much as I go on about "YOUNG JUSTICE" 's flaws maybe being a consequence of background issues, with some hindsight it is possible this show suffered that, too. Originally it was just going to be a Wolverine solo series, when somebody wanted to attach the rest of the X-Men as his supporting cast - likely figuring Wolverine alone could not sell a 26 episode series. To be honest, they're probably right - many people went to see "X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE" for Gambit or Deadpool or ANYONE ELSE. So Kyle, Fine, Yost and company had to basically find a way to marry their Wolverine show into an X-Men show. Thus, it's probably no surprise many of them merely acted as Wolverine's supporting cast.

That said, the gist I get from these notes as well as what Fine says is that a lot of the writers of this show seemed to have nostalgia for the 90's X-Men. The pushing of AGE OF APOCALYPSE, shifting to Jim Lee designs for Jean and Cyclops, and attaching them at the hip DESPITE Cyclops having dated Frost in the comics for 7+ years now, all of it smacks of wanting to party like it's 1995. This is curious considering that Craig Kyle seemed to go out of his way to claim that the 90's X-MEN cartoon was overrated. There is a part of me a little dismayed at the idea of the X-Men always being seen as a 90's nostalgia act. Even the reliance on Cable - who screams 1992, if not 1988, more so than almost any other character ever made - screams of this. A franchise that is supposed to be about the future, the next generation, seems to revel back to the era before I was in high school.

I can say that even in the 90's I was never a fan of Jean Grey's Jim Lee costume. I thought it was both too busy and boring. I actually didn't mind that episode in the 90's show when she donned her old Marvel Girl costume from 1970. I do understand that Jean's costume from X-MEN EVOLUTION was a simplified version of the Jim Lee suit, but...that's just it, it was simplified. But this probably delves into my usual feeling that I always found Jean boring. I think it stems from her creation and the awkward shift her character went from being the "token female" of an all-male team having the obligatory "female character" emotions and subplots to the 1970's Phoenix era that defined her ever since. Phoenix was shocking because it had Jean act in different ways - the dilemma being that Jean was almost a stereotype before then, and now Phoenix was making her act more angry and crazed. The fact that retcons made this useless because Phoenix had merely cloned her disabled this fact. I learned to like Cyclops, but I never found Jean an appealing character. She was always just there to me, Jennifer Hale aside. Part of me always laments the fact that more isn't done or referenced with Cyclops' brief romance with Colleen Wing of the DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON/HEROES FOR HIRE franchise specifically because I find Jean boring. I think if the Uncanny X-Men had not entered a reprint era from 1970 to 1975, and writers had gotten those 5 years to make Jean stand out next to Polaris so she was no longer the team's "token girl", maybe she would have been fleshed out better. The early Claremont era had Storm (and to a degree, Moira McTaggart), but he clearly favored Storm after a while.

Maybe even Fine and company saw this weakness in Jean. In Season 1, she spent most of it either off camera or stricken by amnesia (or being possessed by the Phoenix). She was a prize, not a person. Then in Season 2, she would have literally shared her mind with Frost and had Frost's mannerisms in her. Sounds to me that rather than address the fact that Jean is boring (and make her not so), the writers were doing everything possible to avoid having to face it. Have her missing, have her possessed, etc. If you need to inject Emma Frost into Jean to make Jean interesting, I think that spells a lot right there. Even Jeff Parker, whose work on X-MEN FIRST CLASS I adored, struggled to make Jean more than the team's token girl - he just made her a FUN token girl.

The preview artwork looks cool - even if Jean's legs seem uncommonly long. Wolverine's AOA rendition looks very cool - even if the white around his torn sleeves is a little tacky and screams a bit much of Sabretooth. Cyclops' AOA rendition is a bit different, simplified, but it looks okay. Sunfire looks cool, and the peak at Colossus from AOA is neat, too. Left unsaid was the idea that Colossus was going to return in Season 2 with Magik in some plot that I am very certain would have been one of those "Adventures in Russia were we all Lament the end of the Soviet Union" stories that Colossus is usually saddled with. Hell, the "focus a Colossus episode in Russia where he saves his baby sister" was literally "RED DAWN" from Season 2 of the 90's X-MEN show. Again, for a show headed by a guy who seemed to hate that original show, he sure was eager to remake certain episodes. We had a Shadow King episode that was an improvement over an episode from the 90's. "RED DAWN" is still Colossus' best outing in animation, if only because he got to crush Omega Red with a tank. He's never been that cool on screen since. Anywhere. It would have been difficult, I imagine, for a character who was nowhere to be seen in Season 1 to feel like he was vital in Season 2, unless they bent over backwards to make him so - which was something I doubt for Colossus. I don't see why he couldn't have just been one of the team like Iceman, Beast, Storm, and Shadowcat were. Beast's focus faded after episode 7 or so, and Iceman was always background scenery.

Seeing AGE OF APOCALYPSE animated would have been interesting. "ONE MAN'S WORTH" in Season 4 of the 90's show did a very loose translation of it, but this likely would have been more faithful, at least in terms of designs and so on. That said, the show seemed obsessed with painting Cyclops as being so needy that he required Jean to be competent. That he was an incompetent trainee until Jean led him by the telepathic hand against Magneto. That Cyclops was a devastated mess without her to the point that he was willing to abandon his friends at critical junctures, or lash out like a brat. And now that she's back, suddenly Cyclops is Mr. Perfect again? That's a parody of what a lot of Wolverine fans used to say about Cyclops back in the day. I'm not saying Cyclops was always the picture of emotional stability - he has quite a few dick moments in the comics even before the Utopia era - but his old dynamic was that he was always good at the X-Men stuff and awkward with the real life stuff. "X-MEN EVOLUTION" translated that perfectly - it was that show which made me realize the character's worth as a college freshman (and that show made Jean a bit more interesting as a "big woman on campus" with a bit more sass, BTW).

Fine once again mentions that "BREAKDOWN" was a fun episode to work on, and maybe it was. It was interesting as an episode that had very little action and focused entirely on a psychic journey into a character's past. It certainly was stronger than some psychic journey episodes of the 90's show (although "JUGGERNAUT RETURNS" has moments between Xavier and Cain that still work to this day). However, that episode was the show's only chance to show what Cyclops was like before the pilot. Since the show didn't bother to show us much of "the default X-Men" before the explosion, we could not rightly assume that characters acted "how we always remembered". For example, Wolverine's introduction to the X-Men circa "BREAKDOWN" is similar to the 2000 film, and less so the comics or older cartoons regarding Department H and all that. It was this episode that if it was going to show Cyclops was a great leader before Jean's death, it did a poor job of showing it. Instead, it came very close to claiming that Jean was the leader of the X-Men; she just chose to do so by proxy. Jean was the one who forced Cyclops to approach competence. She is the one who helps forge the pact with Wolverine, which would prove vital when Logan is later tasked with rebuilding the team. It was losing her that destroyed the team and nearly brought the end of the world. That could have been an interesting angle to play at, if it was intentional. Instead, it merely showed that Scott was incompetent and needy since being a teenager, and those flaws had merely become greater in his present. Without Xavier and Jean to coddle him, he was nothing but sound and fury, signifying nothing (the fact that Logan relied on Xavier's mental assistance for missions and occasional moral support is ignored and not held against him). Thus, Cyclops was a guy who always needed a woman to tell him what to do to make him whole, and despite all that they kept flocking to him.

"Cyclops pining for Emma". So, after an entire season of ignoring Emma's every gesture because he was fanatical about finding Jean, now Scott was going to pine for her even though Jean's back? No wonder Xavier made Logan the de facto perfect leader - so much drama with that eye-wear kid.

Plus, it doesn't bode well that Cyclops is working for Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse in AOA. Even without Kyle, I don't trust for a second that it would have been nuanced - "Oh, I was undermining them from within". No, I think Wolverine would have been good and Cyclops bad.

The bottom line is that while I think Season 2 may have been stronger than Season 1 and had more Colossus action, I imagine there would have been a lot that would have pissed me off - basically because it had to build on a foundation that was flawed, and some of the same problems would remain. The show still may have been too busy with plot and cameos to flesh out the characters beyond focus episodes. And "the financials" likely came down to the Powers That Be deciding they could probably only fund 2 seasons of "A:EMH" or another season of "W&TXM" and not both. And as much as I was curious about seeing if Season 2 rebounded and to see one of my favorite characters in action again...I think the Powers That Be made the right decision. "A:EMH" was awesome. Fine building a connected animated universe would have been cool, but...we can still do that with an X-Men guest shot in "A:EMH", if it is to be. I did notice the mention of MRD and the Wendigo there.

Nice to have some tidbits of what will never be, but...I hope the next X-Men cartoon that isn't an anime written by Warren Ellis is a better, more balanced show than this. I don't believe the writers and producers of "W&TXM" sat down and said, "Let's tell an awkward and uneven story". No. I think they put a lot into the show and wanted it to be their best. The problem was that it often sacrificed character development for spectacle, and I think they cared SO much that they let their fanboy hearts bleed onto the paper a bit. Wolverine being a perfect X-leader while Cyclops succumbs to every exaggerated flaw he seems to have, while Storm is a background figure and all that. Even the idea that "if we can't have Colossus in a 2 episode epic, it isn't worth having him at all" is awkward. It is possible to have characters develop through interaction and screen presence without making it their focus episode - "A:EMH" did that and made it look easy.

I think "W&TXM" will be seen as a success due to ratings and fan support online. However, it offers some cautionary tales:
- Wolverine alone cannot carry the franchise forever. His popularity is past it's prime by now, if not by 2009. In the comics he is currently outsold by Spider-Man, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and Captain America. He is on the cusp of B-List status, yet everyone still thinks it is 1991 when he sold in the Top 5.
- Wolverine without his flaws is a more boring character. People LIKE him because he's a rebel with a temper. They expect him to be Han Solo, not Luke Skywalker.
- Do not go so crazy for cameos that you neglect regular supporting characters
- Do not believe you can have either an epic episode, or a character focus episode, and not a mix of both
- Do not make a character nothing but the sum of their flaws with legs and call them "fleshed"
- Do not ever assume you will have a second season to iron out neglected areas. Nothing is assured, especially before finished animation is ordered and edited. Do not neglect those areas.
- People like the X-Men for more reasons and characters than Wolverine. While he can be a key cog, he can not make the engine go alone. X-MEN EVOLUTION remains a cult hit despite being off the air 8 years for precisely this reason
- It is best not to approach a franchise like a kid on a sugar high. Compromises can sometimes force quality.
- For god's sakes, lighten them the **** up sometimes. Virtually every other superhero franchise on TV has more fun than the X-Men often do.

I don't see W&TXM as a terrible show. I see it as underwhelming. While it is a shame that these tidbits and designs will always remain in a WHAT IF folder, I can say "A:EMH" has made me a happier Marvel Animation fan.

Still, Josh Fine did his best as producer, and I imagine Marvel Animation will not have an easy time replacing him.

 

[TheVileOne]

None of those flaws are really flaws. Lots of great shows planned for future seasons that never materialized. It's all just opinion really.

Season 2 would've given us more animated Deadpool. That alone made it worth seeing.

Also all sorts of animated superhero cartoon shows have cameos by other universe characters. Justice League did it all the time and did it worse.

 

[Zant]

Great post Dread but most of it is just your opinion.
So Wolverine did not have flaws?Not sure about that,he took the x men to fight Magneto in Genosha and he should have destroyed the MRD base instead of trying to shut it down,just as Kitty said.Also Wolverine acting like Luke Skywalker lol,I'm sure Colonel Moss will disagree with you

 

[Dread]

None of those flaws are really flaws. Lots of great shows planned for future seasons that never materialized. It's all just opinion really.

Season 2 would've given us more animated Deadpool. That alone made it worth seeing.

Also all sorts of animated superhero cartoon shows have cameos by other universe characters. Justice League did it all the time and did it worse.

As I stated in my list of cautionary tales, it is wrong to ever assume you will get a second season. There are exceptions - the second season of "A:EMH" was in the animation phase by the time Season 1 was wrapping up. Thus, Josh Fine and Chris Yost KNEW 100% that they had more episodes. I don't think that was the case for W&TXM; there was an educated assumption of more, but not a definite knowledge.

26 episodes is a long time in animation. I can think of many shows in which 26 episodes was two seasons and not one - including as recently as "SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN" (which was also abruptly canceled with loose ends left untied). If we have been used to shows getting their spit together after 13 episodes, I don't think it is unfair to be critical that W&TXM left a mess on the table after 26.

I like Deadpool in doses. I can't stand him monthly (or 5 times a month as Marvel once attempted), but every now and then is fine. It would have been cool to hear Nolan North reprise the role for something that wasn't a video game.

"JLU" did overdose on cameos. And it was a problem to a degree there, too. The Flash was a regular character who was neglected for about a season and a half (and he was often neglected for the first two seasons of JL compared to other characters anyway). It took Wonder Woman a long time to complete her origin sequence and gain her full power. Guest characters would make a splash and then never speak again, like Booster Gold or Wildcat. It is a temptation X-Men cartoons have often had to wave off.

Great post Dread but most of it is just your opinion.
So Wolverine did not have flaws?Not sure about that,he took the x men to fight Magneto in Genosha and he should have destroyed the MRD base instead of trying to shut it down,just as Kitty said.Also Wolverine acting like Luke Skywalker lol,I'm sure Colonel Moss will disagree with you

Of course it's my opinion. That's all I can offer.

The issue with Wolverine's "flaws" in this show is that they in no way effected the plot or any character in any lasting negative way, and no character ever called him on it. Wolverine picking a fight with Magneto in Genosha had zero consequences - Magneto merely ceased fighting and let them take the Professor anyway. Wolverine failing to destroy Master Mold in the cradle vs. having to shut "her" down later also had zero negative consequences. He still managed to make up for his failure by stabbing a console. In fact, the ONLY mistake Logan made that WOULD have negatively affected anything was his mistrust of Emma Frost. And how was that resolved? His Future Counterpart had to tell Future Xavier to tell himself. So, the only person who catches Logan's mistakes is...himself.

Sure, Frost and Pryde sometimes teased Logan about his imperfections, but they merrily followed him into them anyway. Only Cyclops seemed to genuinely dislike Logan's style and go his own way - and every situation proved this a wrong gesture. Cyclops lived up to the TV Trope of, "The Complainer Is Always Wrong" on this show.

 

[TheVileOne]

It wasn't wrong at all considering a second season was ordered and WORK WAS ALREADY CLEARLY DONE! Character designs were made and colored. Reportedly 8 episodes were written. So the show was in some state of production before it got pulled. All sources indicate that the show was a hit and a ratings success. But for whatever reason there was no funding to continue on with the show.

 

[Zant]

But Dread,Its because of Logans mistake that he got captured and Trask was able to create those wolverine Sentinals,so the alternate timeline had to deal with a more efficient mutant hunter.Just think of the amount of mutant that Sentinal killed.

Anyway you say this show should lighten up,guessing you did not watch the Rover episode,also will you be happy if the next x men show had the same tone as Superhero squad,or ignore the discrimination stuff .Be careful what you wish for.I don't read comics but even I know that the X men universe is more serious and more mature than the Avengers and Spiderman stuff

 

[Dread]

It wasn't wrong at all considering a second season was ordered and WORK WAS ALREADY CLEARLY DONE! Character designs were made and colored. Reportedly 8 episodes were written. So the show was in some state of production before it got pulled. All sources indicate that the show was a hit and a ratings success. But for whatever reason there was no funding to continue on with the show.

I still chalk it up to Disney perhaps deciding to limit how much of an animation budget they were having for 2010-2012 once they took over Marvel. After all, at the same time a W&TXM Season 2 would have been produced, Marvel also had coming along:

- AVENGERS: EARTHS MIGHTIEST HEROES seasons 1 and 2 being produced back to back, practically
- Season 2 of MARVEL SUPER HERO SQUAD
- Season 2 of IRON MAN: ARMORED ADVENTURES
- ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, which was to be Disney's 100% owned Spidey show after they assassinated TSSM
- A slate of Marvel Anime on G4 that was just being wrapped up in Japan, which included 12-13 episodes series for Wolverine and the X-Men.

Now, Disney seem to want to make DISNEY XD a network has has some "boys action" cartoons. They'll have "A:EMH" as well as "ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN" there. While other cartoons are on other networks, there are corporate synergy reasons to keep them around. "MARVEL SUPER-HERO SQUAD" sells to kiddies, who are Disney's target audience. "IRON MAN: ARMORED ADVENTURES" helps promote Iron Man, and Disney just spent $110 million to get the distribution rights to his third film from Paramount. While I don't think Disney is jumping for joy over Marvel Anime, it was likely paid for before their ownership of Marvel became law in 2010, and they perhaps see it as selling to teenagers. I am not sure whether Disney believes any X-Men media product promotes something Fox has film rights for, but that could be another factor.

Thus, and this is purely my speculation, they may have seen another 26 episodes of "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" as either redundant or a series too much. Yes, it was a ratings success on NickToons; but as Disney does not control that network, unless that show promoted something they DO like, it doesn't do much for them. Animation is expensive and someone may have done some math and wanted to cut somewhere, and perhaps someone figured "do we REALLY need to produce 26 episodes of another X-Men cartoon when we'll have some anime coming in about 'em too?" I'm not saying I exactly AGREE with this, but I feel it is probable. Josh Fine was still trying to promote Season 2 of W&TXM into about Feb. 2010, so the decision to axe it likely did come suddenly. Still...no finished animation yet. Those 8 episodes that were written would likely have not been aired until this year or next if they'd not been sent out overseas for animation by Feb. 2010, as it can take 12-18 months for finished animation to come back to be edited (which Craig Kyle I believe noted himself in a commentary somewhere). In fact, part of me imagines that Disney likely made sure to cut the purse strings BEFORE animation could be officially ordered. Eating some losses on scripts and design art is one thing (as those sorts of things that are produced for pitches get scrapped all the time; Steve E. Gordon did some design work for a "HULKS" cartoon that Kid's WB mulled for about 3 seconds in 2003 before passing) - eating a loss on episodes ordered but never to air is quite another. Part of me imagines Mickey Mouse screaming "STOP THE PRESSES" at some point.

Without Craig Kyle (or Boyd Kirkland), I imagine Fine and whoever was left would have had to fill the void - especially since Yost was busy with A:EMH and may not have been able to write for them. Producing W&TXM and A:EMH at once must have been a beast. Perhaps the fact that Fine is stepping down to focus on his writing career is a sign of a little burn-out after so much production work.

But, yes, while I may have had my criticisms about the show, it was not canceled due to any failure to produce ratings; it was pure corporate politics. Same as for why "TSSM" had to die.

But Dread,Its because of Logans mistake that he got captured and Trask was able to create those wolverine Sentinals,so the alternate timeline had to deal with a more efficient mutant hunter.Just think of the amount of mutant that Sentinal killed.

Anyway you say this show should lighten up,guessing you did not watch the Rover episode,also will you be happy if the next x men show had the same tone as Superhero squad,or ignore the discrimination stuff .Be careful what you wish for.I don't read comics but even I know that the X men universe is more serious and more mature than the Avengers and Spiderman stuff

But those Wolverine Sentinels in the future don't matter anymore. Future Logan got Future Xavier to tell Present Logan about the big mistake, and Logan undid it. The dilemma of W&TXM was that it crammed two major subplots at once - the Master Mold/Sentinel plot with the Dark Phoenix plot. The two were in no way linked; they merely came to a head around the same time. In the future, the only reason Master Mold had ruled was because Xavier had been in a coma for 20 years, the X-Men had broken up and/or been killed by the Phoenix. All Logan had to do to undo that future was make sure the Phoenix did not win, which involved relying on Frost to sacrifice herself to undo it. Thus, those Wolverine Sentinels are moot. That timeline was undone. Thus, even that mistake doesn't matter because some version of Logan made sure it got resolved.

Meanwhile, what was Cyclops' biggest mistake of the season? Going after Mr. Sinister for Jean without any solid evidence he had her - which convinced him to go look, which aided in the Inner Circle claiming her to summon Phoenix. Which would have destroyed the world. His one mistake basically doomed everything. He didn't get a chance to make up for that. In fact the only worthwhile thing he did was learn to trust Frost, and to cause her to rethink the Hellfire Club's goals because she fell for him - heaven knows why. Aside for guilt or Scott's awesome pecs, I still don't know what Frost saw in him in this show. And even this seems to imply that Cyclops is absolutely nothing without a psychic lady leading him by the hand; whether Jean or Frost. And regardless of one's opinion of Cyclops, I feel that is a blunt stereotype of his worst qualities. Wolverine, by contrast, had many of his faults muted. He could go off on loner quests and nobody said boo. Enemies from his past could nearly kill the X-Men and nobody saw him as a liability - yet Logan was all too quick to chew out Scott for bringing a fight with Mr. Sinister to them. The show wanted them to still be rivals to a degree, but the execution of it was botched. There was no rivalry. Scott was clearly always incompetent to a degree; just how much so depended on Jean's presence. He proved to always be weak willed, selfish, and emotionally unstable despite no end of coddling. Logan, well, he was too manly for such things like love (dismissed Jean, didn't let Mystique slow him down long). He could go on a biker crusade and not bring back trouble. He was selfless whenever the plot demanded it. He clearly was the better X-Man in this show. It's no rivalry, then, if one side is clearly portrayed as better.

Josh claims that Cyclops was "a hero and a born leader" in the past of W&TXM. While he likely is way more intimate with the show than I, we watched two different shows. The show I watched introduced Scott as a broken emotional wreck. When it had a chance at a flashback episode into the past, before the pilot, the show merely claimed that Scott was ALWAYS a broken, emotional wreck to a degree. He was a washout X-Man until Jean showed up and held his hand with Magneto. He was so ravenous for her that he would compromise missions by losing his focus, starting fights to chase her, and even fighting Logan without provocation or resistance from him - which made him look petty. Cyclops seemed to blame all of his problems in life on Wolverine showing up, which made him look fragile because it was the first time he actually had to compete for Jean's attention, and he fell apart like a deck of cards at the pressure. At no point in the show did Cyclops ever seem like a leader or a hero. If anything, he seemed like a former teacher's pet who didn't earn that position and didn't deserve to; which perhaps explains why Xavier dismissed him completely to focus on Logan for their dark period. These are not theories - this is how "BREAKDOWN" basically caused things to connect. If there was some sequence where Cyclops was shown as being a leader and a hero in the past, it was cut out at the storyboard phase and Fine forgot. The dilemma is the show didn't see the need to present a "default" X-Men before the school was blown up, but that was a problem because the characters only existed on whatever terms the show presented. For example, Cyclops' origin had some hints from the comics, while Logan's introduction to the team was influenced by the films. So, which can we assume? Neither.

The only caveat to "BREAKDOWN" is that Scott was supposedly the one choosing which memories to go over; Frost was merely making him lucid and going along with them. Thus, you could argue that as someone who was having esteem and emotional issues, he would have likely chosen the moments of failure than success because it is easier to focus on that. A perfectionist, after all, can sometimes overlook all the things they did right and only remember the one thing they botched. Thus, Scott could have vividly remembered the one Danger Room sim he botched and not the 15 he mastered. But that IS theory and nothing the episode presented. Had we seen more of this alternative more, I think the show would have been better off. The most we had is Kitty criticizing Scott's lack of enthusiasm for the team, not exactly his efficiency. Sure, maybe with Jean around he WOULD have been "the first one in the Blackbird". But nothing presented in the show suggested he would have been much actual use unless Jean was telling him step for step what to do. If anything, it could be argued that Jean was the lynch pin of the team before Logan got serious - without her, the team fell apart and without her, Cyclops can't even shave. She led by proxy. By supporting Cyclops, the team moved more efficiently. But even that is a stretch because we saw so little of Jean between her being missing, having amnesia, or possessed by Phoenix. The fact that Jennifer Hale still managed to impress in the role just shows what a pro she is. But, the voice acting was never a dilemma with this series - it was often a strength. Hell, I am stunned Steve Blum didn't get to reprise the role as Wolverine for the anime. The guy was the star of "COWBOY BEBOP", man! Instead you cast the dude from "HEROES"? Why, because Jeph Loeb wrote for that (and ran it into the ground)?

The "ROVER" episode still ended on a somber note. I probably cared more for that robot than I did for Iceman or Storm in this show, which is pretty terrible.

In terms of tone, there is a vast middle-ground between a drum beat of bleakness and "MARVEL SUPER HERO SQUAD". The show did have Mojo act crazy, but that merely made him clash more against the steady drumbeat. Perhaps that has been why Arcade has drifted away from the X-Men in the comics; they repel any plot or character that doesn't end in masochism like negative magnetism. People forget while the subject matter of the 90's X-MEN was often serious, characters were wise-cracking all the time. I simply tire of the X-Men being the bleakest franchise in mainstream superhero fiction.

I mean it was in the title, "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" - which Marvel is using for a comic. So maybe it seems odd that I complain that Wolverine was the star above all others, when the title makes it obvious. However, in modern times I see Wolverine's popularity as past it's prime. Comic sales seem to pan that out. The irony is he was usually at his best as a character before he got overexposed and mega-popular. The next X-Men show may be better served not to over-dose on him. That isn't to say he has to be a jobber like he was in "X-MEN EVOLUTION"; as a fan of that show, Logan getting his butt kicked in EVERY FIGHT he was in got very old by Season 2. But there is a middle option. This show seemed to carry on with the theme that every future for the X-Men ends in death and horror. Save the future from Master Mold? Congrats, now Apocalypse rules the future. And I bet had they defeated him in Season 2, we'd have just gotten a cliffhanger where Xavier realizes the future is ruled by apes on horse-back who speak in British accents. The 90's cartoon had that same subplot. No matter what the X-Men ever did, 2045 still resulted in all of them being dead and the Sentinels being in charge, with 3999 always resulting in Apocalypse ruling the world. So what's the point of all the misery? If nothing you do matters, just get wasted and have some fun, damn it. It's all meaningless anyway. The X-Men should take that "nothing we do saves the future" fact to live every day like it is their last, because it is.

I will regret not getting to see Colossus action for another ten years. But I don't get why these producers, for two shows in a row, over-complicate the **** out of him. You put him on the regular roster, play off his how naive optimism and white hat morality clashes with most of the "gray area" X-Men, you have him interact with Kitty and Kurt (or Storm if anyone recalls she used to see him as a brother figure of sorts), throw Logan at stuff, and smash things. It really should not be so difficult. Yet every time these writers and producers get together to make an X-Men cartoon, they think he's an impossible project and they cast him off to "wait until we get a chance to do a focus episode saga", which never comes. No harm would have been done had he just existed to fight things in the background, like Iceman and Storm usually did. Every time any other character has a feat of strength in an X-Men show, usually Blob or Rogue, I just shake my head and wonder why the **** it is impossible to do with a metal man. In fact, who was the first person Logan actually defeated in a straight up fight in X-MEN EVOLUTION? Colossus. Sigh.

Do I think W&TXM Season 2 may have been stronger? Probably. But from what I read, it likely may have retained some of those niggles I had with Season 1. I probably would have had as many nitpicks with it per episode as I do with "YOUNG JUSTICE" now. "AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES", in contrast, I think was a real upgrade in Marvel Animation's game.

 

[TheVileOne]

LOL, Dread is still sore about Cyclops in the show. Cyclops in the comics has routinely shown poor and questionable behavior .

Dread at the end of the day, we aren't the producers and executives. We aren't making the approvals or in the behind closed door meetings and privvy to some things that actually happened. To me the loss of Wolverine and The X-Men was tragic because at the time how many other animated dark and mature superhero action shows were we getting on TV? Virtually none. They had become a rare commodity at that point. Wolverine and The X-Men was a throwback to what we had seen in the 1990's and early 00's but with superior storytelling and writing.

Producers and writers for a show will usually have a plan to make more than one season. At BotCon I spoke with Jeff Kline and he talked about all the plans he had for another 26 episodes of GI Joe: Renegades which at this point is questionable as Hasbro isn't really saying about what they are doing with the show. Apparently the show is not "cancelled" but they are waiting on more to happen with the new movie but who knows what that even really means. Many of us loved GI Joe: Resolute and wanted to see more. The animation clearly left that avenue open but it never happened. Was it wrong that Warren Ellis wrote it that way?

Transformers G1 had a bit of an odd and sort of unconcluded finale. The intention was to do more and spin off with a Headmasters show (instead that only happened in Japan). The Death and Rebirth miniseries that concluded the show was also originally supposed to be 5 episodes but ended up only being 3 so we had this odd sort of ending with the Decepticons and the Hive Headmasters still alive and kicking. But besides the restoration of Cybertron not much really happened. The Dinobots all but disappeared. Optimus Prime didn't really do anything at all. What happens to Galvatron and the Hive now? My point is, sometimes you think there will be more but circumstances beyond control butt in and muck that up. Look at Farscape. We had to wait over two years before we finally got our finale.

 

[Zant]

I think Dread is more sore about the lack of Colossus,hence his over the top criticism of the show.Its a good thing all the reviews of the show were not done by Colossus fans,if not the reviews won't be has great as they are today.
And apparently Craig Kyle is a mini Michael Bay lol,ok that was funny,I'm sure you won't say that if he worked on the Avengers show.I guess someone has to be the scapegoat

 

[Dread]

LOL, Dread is still sore about Cyclops in the show. Cyclops in the comics has routinely shown poor and questionable behavior .

Dread at the end of the day, we aren't the producers and executives. We aren't making the approvals or in the behind closed door meetings and privvy to some things that actually happened. To me the loss of Wolverine and The X-Men was tragic because at the time how many other animated dark and mature superhero action shows were we getting on TV? Virtually none. They had become a rare commodity at that point. Wolverine and The X-Men was a throwback to what we had seen in the 1990's and early 00's but with superior storytelling and writing.

Producers and writers for a show will usually have a plan to make more than one season. At BotCon I spoke with Jeff Kline and he talked about all the plans he had for another 26 episodes of GI Joe: Renegades which at this point is questionable as Hasbro isn't really saying about what they are doing with the show. Apparently the show is not "cancelled" but they are waiting on more to happen with the new movie but who knows what that even really means. Many of us loved GI Joe: Resolute and wanted to see more. The animation clearly left that avenue open but it never happened. Was it wrong that Warren Ellis wrote it that way?

Transformers G1 had a bit of an odd and sort of unconcluded finale. The intention was to do more and spin off with a Headmasters show (instead that only happened in Japan). The Death and Rebirth miniseries that concluded the show was also originally supposed to be 5 episodes but ended up only being 3 so we had this odd sort of ending with the Decepticons and the Hive Headmasters still alive and kicking. But besides the restoration of Cybertron not much really happened. The Dinobots all but disappeared. Optimus Prime didn't really do anything at all. What happens to Galvatron and the Hive now? My point is, sometimes you think there will be more but circumstances beyond control butt in and muck that up. Look at Farscape. We had to wait over two years before we finally got our finale.

You are right - corporate/network shenanigans have played havoc with no end of TV shows, both live and animated. Even Bruce Timm has had to compromise to networks now and again.

Just because something is "dark" doesn't make it mature - that's just how it is often portrayed. That said, "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" did accomplish having a grim tone in which it was difficult to always know if everyone would survive at the end - and somebody didn't in the finale. The X-Men often do; ironically, "X-MEN EVOLUTION" sometimes avoided that to have some lighter moments, and it's the show that still has a cult following - especially at Fan-Fiction.net. The untold story there is in EVOLUTION, Kid's WB and Marvel Animation had stumbled upon making a show that appealed to girls about as much as it did boys - even more so online. Their response? They had no clue how to capitalize or handle that. Even if they did so merely by doing what any audience demands - writing characters well. In fairness, W&TXM depicted Emma Frost, Rogue, and Scarlet Witch well. Obligatory attachment to Cyclops aside, Frost was a scene stealer, and this show's version of Wanda was easily the best ever on TV, and better than Marvel comics has managed for, what, 7 years? Rogue was handled well, at least until she rejoined the X-Men; then she faded into background noise. Same thing happened to Beast after the first few episodes, which was a major problem.

Even her unrequited attachment to Cyclops usually made Frost look better than it made him look. She reminded me a little of Peppermint Patty in PEANUTS strips - a girl who for some reason has fallen for a horribly flawed and broken boy, but he's too flawed and broken to notice because he is obsessed with a perfect red-head who is off panel and out of his league. There's quiet tragedy there. Especially since she was probably the only female character in the show who didn't like, or respect, or formerly date, Wolverine.

I do think the first season was quite flawed, regardless of shenanigans, though. I don't think the X-Men work the same with Logan as the unquestioned lead and the rest as his supporting cast; maybe I thought that way when I was about 18 in 2000 (and definitely when I was a kid in the 90's), but I don't now. I think the show ditched character development to focus on it's spectacle and saga for too many episodes and stretches, and this made the spectacles hollow in the end. Why should I care if a Sentinel squashes Beast, Storm, or Iceman in the finale? They're just archetypes. Even Kitty seemed more smarmy than nice to me, probably some Kim Possible influence. Making Logan the head of the X-Men in theory was an interesting idea - the creators wanted him to be a "bad leader" and get tension from that. In execution, though, Logan merely became a standard "gruff general" and aside for Cyclops, none of the other characters ever questioned or seriously challenged his authority - and Cyclops was always wrong in the end anyway. Sure, Rogue stormed away from the X-Men due to Logan, but eventually he merely proved to work out his issues selflessly and Rogue returned, forgave him, and became another face on the team. What was worse was Logan "absorbing", by osmosis, the plot threads of other characters. If he is such a perfect character, why does he have to steal the "teacher's pet and burden" subplot from Cyclops? Why does he have to steal the "secret tragic past with Mystique" that Nightcrawler and Rogue have? Finally, a Logan who is the authority and a capable one is a more boring version of the character. Maybe this was similar to how he was written in "X-MEN EVOLUTION", but he benefited there by being on screen less, so this wasn't as readily noticed.

I mean, if trying to hack Master Mold in the cradle rather than destroy it was such a tactically bad idea, why didn't Kitty or Forge seriously question it? Because then Wolverine couldn't be awesome. Even his hypocrisy regarding solo crusades wasn't even touched upon much beyond a quip by Frost. I think if more attention was paid to the premise in terms of character interaction and less focus on time travel and giant robots, it would have been a better show. A subplot in which a few X-Men thought Logan was too blunt to be an effective leader but seeing no alternative for their situation might have been interesting, but it exists only in interview threads or message boards. It didn't help at all when most of Logan's task was to follow Future Xavier's orders; Iceman could have led under such circumstances.

It probably is a bit of a raw deal that Josh Fine and company still produced a popular, hit rated show and it didn't get a second season due to corporate shenanigans. I can imagine people who aren't as irritated by the show's flaws as I was finding it outraging and unfair, much as fans of "TSSM" did - especially since "TSSM" didn't break any Disney XD ratings records when it moved there. I certainly would have watched a second season and I would have been interested if Fine and the other writers would have been able to examine their prior work, enhance what worked and fixed what didn't, and produce an even better show.

I think Dread is more sore about the lack of Colossus,hence his over the top criticism of the show.Its a good thing all the reviews of the show were not done by Colossus fans,if not the reviews won't be has great as they are today.
And apparently Craig Kyle is a mini Michael Bay lol,ok that was funny,I'm sure you won't say that if he worked on the Avengers show.I guess someone has to be the scapegoat

Actually, going into "A:EMH", I seriously questioned whether Chris Yost could handle being the story editor of a big show like that alone without Kyle at his side or being the one in charge. Then the show came out and proved all those fears unjustified. Unlike "W&TXM", here was a show that managed to have a lot of action AND character development without feeling the two were opposing forces. Here was a show that could be deadly serious with threats without being humorless. Here was a show that figured out HOW TO EFFECTIVELY USE A SUPER STRONG CHARACTER, which neither "X-MEN: EVOLUTION" or "FANTASTIC FOUR: WGH" or "W&TXM" accomplished - all Kyle shows. Admittedly, EVERYONE seems to get super-strong dudes right when it's the Hulk or Superman. They magically get amnesia when it's Colossus, even if he is basically Superman as a Russian with fewer powers - he's a literal man of steel and a farmboy for heaven's sakes. Dave Cockrum's claim to fame before UXM was LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES which had Superboy in it, it was totally intentional.

The only thing that does offer comfort as a Colossus fan for X-Men cartoons is the worse hell that fans of Havok or Banshee go through. I am aware that Havok would have appeared in Season 2 of "W&TXM" and I am not certain how that angle would have worked. Usually in the comics, Havok's major malfunction was wanting to get out of Cyclops' shadow - the problem in "W&TXM" was that Cyclops' shadow was that of a hopeless crank. Thus, writing Havok as having sibling issues with Scott would have been awkward. It would be akin to a normal person wanting to be like a shiftless drunk. If he was merely wanting to emulate Cyclops as controlled by Jean, that would unintentionally mean that Havok envied being led by the hand by a hot psychic - a comical envy that would have been portrayed without a shred of irony or humor. My solution would have been to flip the dynamic, especially since in this show, Scott spent 2 years in a coma while Alex moved on with a foster family. Make Havok the awesome, together Summers brother and give Scott the sibling emulation issue. It could have been interested and worked with what the show provided, instead of mindlessly aping the movie in some areas and the comics in another and hoping they stick. But, like with Colossus and Deadpool, it's an episode left unproduced.

Maybe the Michael Bay joke was a bit much - Kyle has far more imagination and sophistication to his work than Bay does. But I see the trait in which I think Kyle likes going for the shocks, the explosions, the "fast forward to the GOOD PARTS" without caring how they get there. And sometimes that stuff matters. It provides context. Still, "THOR" kicked butt and Kyle helped write that, so, major props. Maybe he's better for bigger films at this stage in his career, hence the move. Imagine if Warner Brothers figured that out and moved Bruce Timm to films?

Often in commentaries, Yost usually seemed like the historian and Kyle was the type who's go, "But it would be awesome if Thor dated Amora" despite it being merely out of character for Thor. It'd be awesome if Superman dated Harley Quinn or Catwoman, but I'd consider anyone who wrote that into a mainstream continuity story a hack. The "not caring how we get there" flaw of writing is often why many Marvel Comics enter narrative structure problems - especially for the Big Events. Having seen Yost handle a show like Avengers alone, I think W&TXM's flaw of trading character development for spectacle was Kyle's influence. I could be wrong; maybe Yost's style shifted 180 degrees for a new franchise. It was usually said in some interviews that the first season was "Kyle's show", so...I usually lump some of the flaws on him.

With Kyle and Yost gone, and with Kirkland also tragically gone, a 2nd season would have been vastly different for those reasons. Better or worse, of course, is left to imagination.

 

[TheVileOne]

Dread, until you are ready to produce and story edit your own animated show and do it how you want to do it I don't think you are one to doubt Chris Yost or can really say how a show's season should be mapped out. You make it sound like Yost needed Kyle to hold his hand all the time as a writer in order to plot. Yost has a career beyond collaborating with Kyle though I think they both did some tremendous work together (X-Force, Hulk vs., etc.).