World Web shooter shop class - Part 1

[Bdude101]

that was very helpful and I will do my best to follow what you said

 

[White_widow]

It's ok man, don't freak. All is well.

For the basics on polymers, I'll give you this:
http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/kidsmac/wiap.htm


This is a solvent. It usually doesn't happen that quickly with other polymers It basically dissolves the polymer, but doesn't break the crosslinks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2T8zayk6PM&feature=fvwrel


This is the type of adhesive we are working on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_sensitive_adhesive

The polymers that are easily dissolved in acetone are:

styrofoam, cellulose acetate, and polycarbonate.

polyvinyl alcohol is easily dissolved in water.


We are attempting to build a new type of plastic.

a plastic= polymer + plasticizer+ additives.

the polymer gives it all the strength. We want a fiber that is at least 55 MPa strong.

the plasticizer gives the polymer flexibility. To find the plasticizer, we need to first choose a polymer, because they are rather specific.

The additives in our case are acetone and rubbers to create that adhesive.


The goal is to dissolve the plastic into a liquid with the consistency of syrup or honey. The plastic will then be extruded. When the extrusion hits the air, the acetone will evaporate. When the acetone evaporates, the liquid will have become a strong fiber with adhesive qualities. A good example of this is this video from 22:17-24:39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA0iv99VPvI

Now as for the web shooter itself, it's a tank of fluid like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAd9hwH2AP8

except, instead of a pump action, it's pressurized, and instead of a gun, there is a valve on the wrist. The fluid of course would be webbing. You can avoid the tank, but I prefer it or canisters that hook into the valve.

Finally, you could have the perfect web fluid, and the perfect shooter, but if you do not prepare it well, the fiber won't be worth anything. It needs to be drawn, extruded, or spun. The reason is because the molecules of the polymer get all screwy when it is dissolved. You need the fiber to be crystalline and elastomeric. This can only happen when it is put through a spinneret, dry spun, or electrospun.

That's the basic gyst. Once you learn this, and then study more, then you can create webbing and modify it and the shooter.

 

[Bdude101]

Thanks man, this will help me a lot. Good to know we're cool.

 

[White_widow]

we're all good.

 

[Bdude101]

Just a quick question, trying not to be annoying, do you have a picture of your web shooter or um...some kind of idea for the web-shooter? Cuz i know we need a pressure vessel, valve, intake and outake valve, and the electrospinneret or just the spinneret. Cuz I am pretty good with the know on the webbing but need a little help with the webshooter. Thanks so much. And I am guessing that the best solution that you have is the CelluStick formula you made based off of the guidelines given above.

 

[spider 2099]

Hey guys I have an idea for the trigger. Why don't we use a membrane?

 

[ng.samuel]

That seems like a good idea, by this do you mean something that is similar to those membrane keyboards? The only problem with that is that it would only work with electricity, but since our current idea is to use electrospinning, it will be fine.

 

[specspider]

Has anyone seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vq1kQ_hvwc&feature=related
Pretty cool

 

[MarvelFan1]

To Bdude: acrylics tend to react and harden with water which is something that would help clog the shooter. Silicone is also problematic, as it increases the viscosity of an already viscous material. It's a good thought though. I like that you are thinking.

As for the solidification process, you've touched on the hardest part of this project. Though it's still kind of the formula instead of the shooter. It's not hard to find polymers that are strong enough to support weight, but it is very hard to find polymers that support weight, and can be dissolved by us, without the use of advanced equipment and acids. Shoot me a pm, and I'll tell you the ways I'm thinking of for the solidification process.

To Nolder: Pressure is a certain volume of gas, compressed within an area. This creates a force that is specific to this amount of gas trying to escape at this rate. If you were to double the space to about two cartridges, it would be halved. If you used three cartridges, it would be reduced to a third. This is of course space without fluid as fluid is VERY hard to compress. It's easier to compress a gas into a solid than it is for a fluid to be compressed at all. So if you have the entire container filled with fluid (the one connecting to the co2) then the pressure will still be that 800, but as the fluid id expelled, the pressure and the fluid will decline together.

Also, Where did you get that figure that CO2 holds 800 psi?

To wadaltmon: cellulose acetate phthalate is a film forming plastic. It might be strong, but it was never intended to be extruded as a fiber. It's worth a shot though. Now as for your first formula, how was the viscosity and the ductility? I'm just curious.

To Marvel fan: Your clip isn't showing up. which one is it?

To Flicky: This can be done one of two ways, though they both require a schrader valve. One is to have a tube at the bottom of the can, and the gas at the top pushes the fluid into the tube to the nozzle. the second method is to have the coupler on the bottom so that the fluid will just fall into the tubes. I call that mechanism gravity feeding, and it's the method I'm using. The pressure is supplied from the schrader at the top.

this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdgCJmkf00A
2:33-2-:48. you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[White_widow]

To Bd: I need to replace the pressure vessel, and I believe that I will do that next week. If you go to the website, you can see the maximus. A couple other people are curious by my gravity fed design, so I'm going to have to post it soon.

To 2099: What do you mean by membrane?

To specs: that is cool.

To marvel fan: Silly string does the same thing believe it or not. The solvent in the string allows it to be a liquid until it gets about a foot away from the can. My other idea is that the strands spin together after he presses one of the other switches which activates a motor.

 

[White_widow]

A lot of you guys want to use solenoid valves right? Here you go:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_s...rh=k:solenoid+valve+12v,n:16310091&sort=price

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-12V-DC-...Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr#ht_3907wt_866

These are just two websites. Apparently solenoid valves are cheaper than I thought. You just have to type in the right search.

"solenoid valve 12v" They are about as cheap to make as my helium valves, but the fluid stream will go straight, and the switch will be easy enough to activate.

Do you want me to draw up some schematics for it?

 

[AmazinSpiderboy]

Are you guys still trying to figure out how to unclog your web shooters when they shoot because I found a lubricate that will do the job

 

[Bdude101]

So for the solenoid valve, is that going to be the part that shoots right? and is the battery hooked up to the electrospinneret going to power the solenoid valve as well, cuz i think so. that solenoid valve looks like it would help a lot.

AmazinSpiderboy:
Are you guys still trying to figure out how to unclog your web shooters when they shoot because I found a lubricate that will do the job

What is the lubricant you found called?

 

[MarvelFan1]

I think it's cool that solenoid valves and electrospinnerets are easier and cheaper to make then I thought! But there are two reason why I'm not going to use them yet. One, because with a valve like a helium tank valve or aerosol valve, you won't worry about misfires when making a fist or the battery running dead. Two, I want to start of simple, then work my way up. First I'd do noir shooters, the possibly a combination of weavers and amazing shooters, and last, tech shooters. But this is the route I'm choosing, feel free to choose your own route. Also, it'll be easier to activate.

 

[spider 2099]

By membrane I mean like the one Peter uses for his shooter. We just need to make it like every time we shoot it make the web to come out whit like an on and off button. Later I will upload some pics that I have of stuff that can help us so please wait

 

[Bdude101]

Hey MarvelFan, what was your webshooter going to be and how did you figure out how to make a electrospinneret?!

 

[Bdude101]

To White_Widow, I read the Pressure-Sensitive Adhesive article. What is the elastomer base for this project?

 

[White_widow]

To B-dude: The elastomer base is polyisoprene. As for the thing about the electrospinning, It's simple hooking up a battery to the spinneret. As I understand it, All you need is a tube, and a wire connecting to the tube that the fluid goes through. The wire will lead to a power source emitting 5-50kv (though a transformer will be needed to do this)

 

[MarvelFan1]

Hey MarvelFan, what was your webshooter going to be and how did you figure out how to make a electrospinneret?!

I'm going to post a picture soon, and I'm not using an electrospinneret yet.

 

[Bdude101]

How will the wire connect through the tube to make it electrically charged?
Thanks MarvelFan

 

[White_widow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN85S2q75jo

Notice that there are two wires. One connects to the spinneret, and the other to the collection plate.

 

[AmazinSpiderboy]

The lubricate is biocable

 

[jamisicus6]

Can I just ask if there's a decent design for actually firing this thing?
I've got an idea for how we can make the cable form nicely. Please bear with me, its a little difficult to explain it with words. The ejection of the liquid occurs through a number of charged hypodermic needles all around one central negatively charged one. This takes place on a spinning plate, so you end up with a central thread that is wrapped in positively charged ones. This should help with the elasticity as well, but it would require the threads to be forming by this point. Any thoughts?

EDIT: I'll try to draw up some diagrams to explain what I mean to make it easier to understand tonight

 

[Bdude101]

Sounds interesting and so here is the basic design of the spinneret I think:

Battery attaches to wire and to a collection plate. Inside of the Electrospinneret is the spinneret is electrically spinning around 25 hypodermic needles that are probably around 5mm wide. There is also a pressure vessel attached which is propelled by CO2 cartridges. And an intake and outake valve, and of course the two buttons to activate the spinneret and battery. Am I right?
Thanks AmazinSpiderboy, I will try to use that lubricate. It goes on the PVC right?

 

[White_widow]

Can I just ask if there's a decent design for actually firing this thing?
I've got an idea for how we can make the cable form nicely. Please bear with me, its a little difficult to explain it with words. The ejection of the liquid occurs through a number of charged hypodermic needles all around one central negatively charged one. This takes place on a spinning plate, so you end up with a central thread that is wrapped in positively charged ones. This should help with the elasticity as well, but it would require the threads to be forming by this point. Any thoughts?

EDIT: I'll try to draw up some diagrams to explain what I mean to make it easier to understand tonight

That's genious! I love it. I've been looking at it trying to charge the nozzle, but that left so many issues with engineering an air tight seal. It'll still be difficult, but it will be significantly easier with that design. Thanks!