World Webbing formula

[White_widow]

I know right? anyway, styrene is going to be easy to keep a liquid than nylon. If we could keep the formula heated, the optimal formula would be hot glue and polycaprolatcone.

 

[marco18]

Ok im sorry for overeacting for something little, I guess I did take it the wrong way obviously, im sorty

 

[White_widow]

It's all good homey.

Now as for the formula:

We need a strong polymer that dissolves in acetone.

What I've learned from my past two experiments is that we don't have to settle in strength, and that we do need to work on viscosity.

-Now styrofoam can be officially be ruled out as too weak, or rather too brittle to be effective.

-cellulose acetate is still in the running until further experiments suggest otherwise.

-polycaprolactone is not fully soluble in acetone, however, a co-polymer might give us the sufficient strength and solubility. (honestly, a can't break a thread of this stuff without heat or scissors.) Creating a shear thinning property would be difficult in that case though.

any ideas?

 

[nolder]

It's all good homey.

Now as for the formula:

We need a strong polymer that dissolves in acetone.

What I've learned from my past two experiments is that we don't have to settle in strength, and that we do need to work on viscosity.

-Now styrofoam can be officially be ruled out as too weak, or rather too brittle to be effective.

-cellulose acetate is still in the running until further experiments suggest otherwise.

-polycaprolactone is not fully soluble in acetone, however, a co-polymer might give us the sufficient strength and solubility. (honestly, a can't break a thread of this stuff without heat or scissors.) Creating a shear thinning property would be difficult in that case though.

any ideas?

do we need to increase or decrease viscosity?

 

[marco18]

It's all good homey.

Now as for the formula:

We need a strong polymer that dissolves in acetone.

What I've learned from my past two experiments is that we don't have to settle in strength, and that we do need to work on viscosity.

-Now styrofoam can be officially be ruled out as too weak, or rather too brittle to be effective.

-cellulose acetate is still in the running until further experiments suggest otherwise.

-polycaprolactone is not fully soluble in acetone, however, a co-polymer might give us the sufficient strength and solubility. (honestly, a can't break a thread of this stuff without heat or scissors.) Creating a shear thinning property would be difficult in that case though.

any ideas?

well i researched that spiders webs are made of silk and that maybe we (this was my first idea for a lets say "mark 1" webshooter ) could gatther tons of strands from spiders or spider webs, put them in the shooter and try it?

 

[marco18]

i could get strands of webs, study them under a microscope and try a compound. then with you guys knowledge, we could pull something together?

 

[marco18]

i'll continue researching on the net and books but since i dont have a microscope, i will use a magnifying glass

 

[White_widow]

Spider webs are ironically not even close to what we need. Only irradiated silk can be dissolved, and the sheer quantity that we would need would be overwhelming.

We definitely need to work on the viscosity issue. Shear thinning additives are easy enough, but they will add up when mixed with the other polymers.

 

[nolder]

spider webs are ironically not even close to what we need. Only irradiated silk can be dissolved, and the sheer quantity that we would need would be overwhelming.

We definitely need to work on the viscosity issue. Shear thinning additives are easy enough, but they will add up when mixed with the other polymers.

post #1000 woohoo

 

[White_widow]

Let's see. any other polymer ideas?

1.) polyurethane.
2.) Polyester.
3.) Polystyrene.
4.) cellulose acetate.
5.) PVOH

The properties we want to screw with are strength and viscosity.

Strength is a result of extrusion, structure, and reinforcement.

Viscosity is the result of shear thinning or solvency.

Silk is strong, but it doesn't have any viscosity tricks. It's created by crystalline and amorphous groups.

spandex is strong, but again with that viscosity. It's created by crystalline polyurethane, and elastic polyurea.

Whipped cream, nanocellulose, and guar gum can retain their shapes, but shear rates cause viscosity changes called thixotropic shear thinning.

 

[clyde]

Hey I've read everything on your site. It's pretty cool how you guys have come up with a formula. How strong is it exactly? and do any of the formulas have stretchy properties? Is it possible to swing from it? pull a car maybe? Also how much of it could you shoot if you had a 3cm diameter strand from a cartridge that has a volume of 200mL?

Thanks in advance.

 

[White_widow]

clyde... stop watching movies please. The formula we have is so brittle that it cracks when you mess with it. We have adhesion down, and stretchy is easy enough to do if a co-polymer is made between cellulose and polyisoprene or polyurea. Holding a car... WHY? If you need to hold a car, I recommend a crane or about 150 strands of duct tape. Swinging, again why? It couldn't anyway, as removing the solvent quickly is a challenge.

As for the question about the 200 ml tank, that is a fair question The answer is that if you are going by silly string logic (that thickness) then you can get around 500ft-1000ft. I'd recommend though foregoing cartridges altogether. Use pressure vessels that could actually hold some fluid.

 

[White_widow]

Let's start going over the big three properties that determine webbing.

strength: The strength is all determined by the crystalline polymer. That's the HARDEST part of this formula.

State change: The formula needs to flow like a liquid. there needs to be some shear thinning as to remove viscosity. However, it could start as a liquid and become solid with a pressure caused crosslinking. I think that solvent is the way that this can happen.

adhesion: I used to think that this was the hard part, but now, it's actually quite easy. It's caused by viscoelasticity. This property basically says that the polymer will stretch and then resist the flow.
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So basically, this is the answer.

A co-polymer of crystalline structure and elastic structure that is turned into a gel by a solvent.

Check this out:

Organogels
An organogel is a non-crystalline, non-glassy thermoreversible (thermoplastic) solid material composed of a liquid organic phase entrapped in a three-dimensionally cross-linked network. The liquid can be, for example, an organic solvent, mineral oil, or vegetable oil. The solubility and particle dimensions of the structurant are important characteristics for the elastic properties and firmness of the organogel. Often, these systems are based on self-assembly of the structurant molecules.[3][4]

EDIT: I've tested three types of plastics that are changed into a gel and solidify. It creates a VERY strong bond. I can't break it unless I peel it off with a knife and break the polymer. We don't even need an adhesive, though we are technically going to use one (because gelatinous rubber is one)

 

[White_widow]

Hmmm It's possible for use to synthesize cellulose rayon. What if we were to crosslink rayon with rubber? The rubber would still be soluble, but the cellulose of course wouldn't. We would then dissolve the rubber and this would create a stiff gel. We could add a STA to the solvent allowing the gel to be thixotropic until it evaporates.

It says that a lot of gels are thixotropic anyway. I wonder if we even need a STA.

 

[White_widow]

GAH... I wish I had better equipment. Cellulose is FOR SURE the polymer that is needed for web fluid. Nano-cellulose is stronger than kevlar. Hemp plastic is 10 times stronger than steel. That's the tensile strength of legitimate spidroin. That doesn't take into consideration the elastic part of the formula.

It's natural, it's renewable, and it's strong. There's just the matter of making it soluble. It has to be a copolymer so that the cellulose will be soluble and elastic.

 

[White_widow]

Here's something new. Most plants have multiple components. The main three polymers are cellulose, lignin, and starch.

cellulose polymers are hardest to make, but are the strongest.

I don't know anything about lignin polymers, but look at these starch polymers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnKFsbnHv30&feature=player_embedded
http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Potato-Plastic!/

This is where that man found out how to make this stuff:
http://green-plastics.net/

This describes starch polymers (rubbery or crystalline), algae polymers (strong), and rayon polymers. They are easy plastics to make at home.

 

[spidey44]

Cool I didn't know bioplastics were that strong.

 

[White_widow]

Cool I didn't know bioplastics were that strong.

well, cellulose bioplastics are that strong. I still don't know about this starch/agar blend, but I'm excited. The great thing about hippies is that they don't get lab equipment or funding, but still have great results.

Edit: Unlike polystyrene/cellulose acetate, which we can't screw with, these bioplastics can be made more or less elastic, stronger, weaker, ductile, and other properties. We couldn't do that at all with all of the other plastics. I'm not sure how strong we can make these, but it's worth a shot.

 

[nolder]

well, cellulose bioplastics are that strong. I still don't know about this starch/agar blend, but I'm excited. The great thing about hippies is that they don't get lab equipment or funding, but still have great results.

Edit: Unlike polystyrene/cellulose acetate, which we can't screw with, these bioplastics can be made more or less elastic, stronger, weaker, ductile, and other properties. We couldn't do that at all with all of the other plastics. I'm not sure how strong we can make these, but it's worth a shot.

sounds interesting. my college is full of hippies. THEY'D LOVE IT.

 

[Wadaltmon]

This may be just a "sand-toss in the wind" idea, but my friend suggested just opening some valve and allowing the formula to expand, which would extrude it out due to the sheer strength of the canister. Personally, that's not my speed, but thought I might throw it out there.
In other news, I will upload some new formula pictures soon. And I found a store about 35 miles north of my house that sells cellulose acetate, but it's expensive and they may not sell it to me on account of my age not being 18 or more.
EDIT: Also, July 9 marks the start of my 5th year working on the Web Shooter Project. I feel that we are all closer than ever and will achieve our goals within this year. Hopefully.

 

[clyde]

Haha well thanks for the reply. Webshooters would be a good weapon and tool for when or if the world goes to ****s and you don't want to kill anyone (just help or subdue). Applications are limitless so there's no use asking someone why they want to do something. And besides, watching too much movies has lead me to great things so I wouldn't discourage any of you from doing it. After all White Widow, you WERE encouraged by spiderman comics/cartoon/movie (one of them) to even come up with a web formula right? Look how far you've come!

 

[White_widow]

To nolder: Yeah. It's good technology.

To Wadaltmon. I feel the same way, even though I've only been on for a year or two.

To Clyde: True, but I don't want to hold a car with it. That's the only thing about this. The second someone mentions swinging or kevlar tensile strength, that's when I step back and say, that's the sort of person who overestimates the plastic formula. Feel free to watch movies and be inspired, but don't think that we can build a polymer that scientists haven't been able to after thousands of years of research. (Spider silk inspired all fibers after the advent of beast skins). That's what inspired rayon, nylon, and other polymers.

 

[White_widow]

before I give up entirely on polystyrene, I have two more tests to conduct on it. For the first test, I added two shear thinning liquids to polystyrene. One of them reduced adhesion, while the other got stronger. I'm waiting for them to dry before I run any tests or draw any conclusions.

I have another test, and that is to see if glycerin can act as a plasticizer to polystyrene.

I still think that cellulose acetate is the way to go, but hey, if we can screw with it's properties, why not?

I also want to find out if I can impregnate some of these polymer gels with fibers to make them stronger.

 

[clyde]

Interesting. As I mentioned before, it may be useful to go straight to the source and harvest spiderwebs using silk worms. The only problem I could think of is getting the silk to be in fluid form but I don't know much about chemistry so I don't know if spiderwebs are reversible. There may be a way around it though, I haven't done much research on how or in what form silk worms produce spiderwebs. Any thoughts?

 

[spidey44]

To many silkworms would be needed, it would take too much time and like white widow said you need radiation to dissolve the silk in water.