World Webbing formula

[White_widow]

To sal: neoprene is what is avaiable in contact cement from home depot. I wouldn't spend anything on that in amazon.

PVA was designed to bond to cement, so we are definitely on our way.

I started to research which PVA fibers are that strong, and apparently, there it can be dry spun, which is good for us. The technical term is vinylon.

http://www.jcfa.gr.jp/english/cs/seni/e_vinylon.html

which website did you read that suggested that peter's webbing was 1000 MPa

 

[Iron_spider]

EDIT: So I just found a couple construction websites that sell Polyvinyl alcohol fibers.

http://store.blueconcrete.com/fiberz-pva-4000/

Check out ALL of their PVA fibers. They all have tensile strengths of at least 1000 MPa. I wonder why there is no consistent tensile strength? If it is 1000MPa, we don't even freaking need cellulose. More research is required.

http://tchfc.engin.umich.edu/doc/Presentations/TGB/Hoshiro-Properties.pdf

Uh... I totally proposed this like a month ago... Hm. Maybe the different tensile strengths are a result of different chemical modifications.

But seriously! I'm pretty sure I posted about this a while back and it got debunked...

 

[White_widow]

If you think that's bad, I've proposed this at least twice: Once when I read about the oyster substrate, and the second, when graphene was still a thing. The issue is not so much whether PVA CAN reach a high tensile strength, but rather HOW it does it.

I thought the source that you showed me was in the league of chemically modified PVA, however, if this link is true, it's just in the matter of how you spin it. There are other sources that tell me it's only 6 MPa, so I can't really be sure.



In short, more research is required before we jump to conclusions.

but this looks promising: http://www.jcfa.gr.jp/english/cs/seni/e_vinylon.html

If the spinning solution is just water and PVA, then this is all we really need, but if not, there is still more research to be done.

 

[Iron_spider]

Can't it be electrospun as well?

 

[Milesmorales9]

I am going to try making nylon 6-10. Plasticizers take away the adhesion, so I won't add them. As for the acid, The whole web will be coated with krazy glue ,so it won't matter.

 

[White_widow]

To Miles: That formula will give you SO many chemical burns. One from the acid, one from the exothermic glue, one from the hexane, and one from the torn skin. It's also going to be super brittle.

To Iron: Yes, and that's another reason why we are investigating PVA again. Before, even if we found out that it had ALL the answers, we couldn't do anything about it, because we couldn't spin it. Now that electrospinning is possible (due to all our tech guys) we actually can extrude these fibers without creating a film that ruins the integrity.

The next goal is to find out how EXACTLY vinylon is made. If we can replicate that process by electrospinning and being safe, we can disregard the cellulose acetate. If I'm not mistaken, polyvinyl alcohol is synthesized by hydrolysis of elmer's glue. The formula would be cheap too.

 

[Iron_spider]

I just read through an article on electrospinning PVA, and I realized a potential problem. We have to keep in mind that water doesn't evaporate as quickly as acetone. In the article I read, the water didn't completely leave the fibers; they weren't dry. Dry spinning uses hot air to evaporate the water faster, so maybe we should look into a potential heating component again.

 

[Milesmorales9]

Thanks for telling me. I would have suffered serious pain. Could you tell me the current formula. I can't keep track.

 

[Bdude101]

So our new formula is PVA + contact cement + water + dry spinning (no electrospinning, it was a genius idea) + polyisoprene?

 

[nolder]

As I've mentioned, I'm not good with chemistry, but I was in the process of brushing up on newtonian fluids when I came across this lab from a university. on the bottom of the first page it describes the plastic container code system. I recognize polystyrene because it was talked about in these forums. The lab lists 5 other (organic?) plastic polymers. I don't know if we are still looking into polystyrene or if we even still need an organic plastic, but maybe could experiment with these other plastics. I believe the symbols for the plastic container code system are used on household goods so maybe we could extract the plastics from soda bottles or something. I don't know I could be wrong. What are your opinions on this?

http://www.apsu.edu/sites/apsu.edu/files/chemistry/1041_Investigating_Polymers_F10.pdf

EDIT: also, this:
http://www.ca.uky.edu/enri/pubs/enri303.pdf

 

[Milesmorales9]

Wait, so what is the solvent? Water? Cause that does not evaporate that fast.

 

[MSaleem]

I was asleep.OK here WW the website you asked me for. I typed in "How many pounds can 1000MPa hold just to see what results would come up, and wow there:

http://www.answer5.com/education_reference/science_mathematics/?id=1062695

ok so contact cement. So far we have: Cellulose Acetate, Polyvinyl Alcohol, We cant use Polyisoprene unless you wanna use condoms, Contact Cement but how would we use acetone? Isnt It CONTACT Cement??? So putting it in the cartridgde. It will stick.

To Nolder: I think that is a good idea. But we have something that we are very close to, so that could be a separate test.

 

[MSaleem]

Oh, and WHEN we find the formula, I dont think we should be spreading out what the formula is. I mean if we tell, everyone is gonna wanna know and people will try to swing and die. I think we should keep this on a low. Just the people here.

 

[White_widow]

Lol, you just don't want any rival spidermen.

As for the thing about water, oh ye people of little faith. Water isn't hard to get rid of. It's a little harder than acetone, but there are methods, of getting rid of both of them.

I found out what makes the difference in all of these PVA fibers. It's how it's polymerized. It has to be put through three stages to turn from elmer's glue into PVA. The difference is how long you subject the fluid to methanol and caustic soda.

http://www.kuraray-am.com/pvoh-pvb/downloads/Mowiol_brochure_en_KSE.pdf

If you scroll down to textiles, it describes the differences. Moreover, I think it's interesting to note, that it mentions that PVA can be made to be adhesive. Now we know that PVA is generated in construction for the sole reason of bonding to cement, but now we have a source that tells us WHY they are different. The issue with this becomes that the fibers in construction sites aren't completely soluble. I'll continue to look into it.

You guys know the nylon trick right? You mix hexamethylene diamine and sebacoyl chloride? Well it turns out that you can do the same thing with PVA, water, and acetone, though the strength of the fibers will be rather pathetic until that pva is fully hydrolyzed.

http://www.asminternational.org/content/docs/alcohol.pdf

It seems ironic, but adding acetone actually hardens PVA acording to that article. Scroll down to PVA rope.

 

[MSaleem]

To WW I guess that is true, but i dont wanna see random people everyday on something that they didnt even do lol.

And where are we now. PVA or Contact cement? But wont Contact Cement harden into the cartridge? And wont PVA harden with acetone?

 

[White_widow]

The acetone acts as a filter. It's learning how to use that. The great thing about being you is that you can take the best information from what we have here, and what's available on the internet to make informed decisions on YOUR PARTICULAR formula.

 

[White_widow]

What I want everyone here to do is start thinking, WHY this stuff works. WHY do pressure sensitives work? WHY does nylon have such a high tensile strength? WHY does silly string do what it does. It is only once you understand Why this stuff happens that you can understand HOW you can replicate it.

For example, I know that some PVA samples have low tensile strength, and others have strengths close to steel and cellulose. Now WHY that is is because crosslinking affects it's properties. So I have to now find a strain of PVA that is strong, and can be dissolved. If not, I can make it. Then there's the methods of spinning and temperature. Did you know that MOST substances can have their solubility compromised by temperature? Try it. Get a cup of water and put it into the fridge. Get a cup of boiling water. Mix sugar into both. The frigid water won't dissolve as much. The hot water will dissolve all of it. I bet that CO2 could reduce solubility, if not in liquid form.

 

[MSaleem]

Has anyone ever thought about rubber cement?

 

[MSaleem]

Hey WW can you send me the link to the page which teaches you how to make a heated wire to evaporate?
THANKS

 

[White_widow]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30130164/Fibers-Poly-Vinyl-Alcohol

just documenting PVA stuff for future use. Don't mind me.


To Sal: The rubber cement, or contact cement is part of the adhesive. It provides the viscoelasticity. The heated wire is on the website: http://realwebtech.webs.com/web-shooters

 

[MSaleem]

Cellulose Acetate loses strength when wet fyi

 

[White_widow]

It's like you don't think we know this.

 

[MSaleem]

Does acetone let contact rubber/cement stay liquid or dissolve?

 

[White_widow]

depends on the blend you buy. When I created elastyrene for the first time, I used instant contact cement. It was soluble in acetone.

On a more humble note. Iron_spider, if we can make strong PVA fibers at home, then I do believe I owe you an apology. I didn't think that we could spin solutions because most of them involve coagulation baths, but because we now have dry spinning, gel spinning, and electrospinning, it seems that you were right, and I shouldn't have been so doubtful. Sorry bud.

 

[Iron_spider]

depends on the blend you buy. When I created elastyrene for the first time, I used instant contact cement. It was soluble in acetone.

On a more humble note. Iron_spider, if we can make strong PVA fibers at home, then I do believe I owe you an apology. I didn't think that we could spin solutions because most of them involve coagulation baths, but because we now have dry spinning, gel spinning, and electrospinning, it seems that you were right, and I shouldn't have been so doubtful. Sorry bud.

It's all good. We didn't know then what we know now, anyway. We're making huge progress though, and that's what really matters, right?