Welcome to Earth One!

[Tron Bonne]

Well i dont think its so much that people want the heroes to be killing every thing they see, its just that there are certain evil bastards like the Joker and Darkseid to which people are baffled as to why Batman and Superman let them live when its clear that the world would be better off without them. Dont get me wrong, i love how these guys have a moral code that they will never break, but every now and then whenever the joker starts murdering babies just for fun i cant help but feel like "Dude, just KILL him already!!".

Eh, a case of comics becoming far too dark and people trying to put too much real world weight and rationalizations to characters that really shouldn't have them. I'll never understand the need people see for those two elements to enter superhero comics so prominently. Watchmen was cool, for what it was, but I wouldn't consider that a template for these kinds of things.

Superman killed Darkseid in Final Crisis and killed Mandrak as well.

Eh, didn't care much for that either. It was different and all, since the universe was collapsing, but I will always prefer characters who finds ways not to kill to those who kill liberally.

 

[Eros]

If an pure evil Alien God, bent on universal domination is trying to kill everyone, Im gonna kill him first Tron Boone. Any sane person would do the same.

 

[Tron Bonne]

If an pure evil Alien God, bent on universal domination is trying to kill everyone, Im gonna kill him first Tron Boone. Any sane person would do the same.

Not sure how else to response to this then well...literally what I said.

Eh, didn't care much for that either. It was different and all, since the universe was collapsing, but I will always prefer characters who finds ways not to kill to those who kill liberally.

If you don't agree, whatever, I know I'm in the minority. I'm not seeking approval

 

[Drz]

You know im re-reading ign's review of the book again and the reviewer emphasizes on the fact that the story is riddled with "vengeance" and "revenge". I have a strong feeling that we're going to see this version of superman kill in this book. I think whoever the main villain is in this story will die by Supes' hand and i can definitely see that causing alot of controversy. I mean i keep racking my brain trying to figure out what would be so bad about this book that ign would rate it so low and i think Supes crossing that line would do the trick. Putting together the hints from the review, i think thats prolly whats gonna happen.

Also IGN hates it because JMS took away the clichés/stereotypes out of Superman and made it a whole new modern character. So they feel it's not Superman at all, while the whole point of the Earth One book is to modernize and retell the story to a new audience. >__>

Same thing is happening with Batman. Batmans changing his eguipment far more often and faster than in previous incarnations, and you got a whole new Alfred Pennyworth going on.

 

[kguillou]

I see what Tronne Bonne is saying tho. It IS a case of putting too much real world weight on something fictional. Theres a certain level of suspension of disbeleif that comics need in order to work. We're just supposed to beleive that Batman and Superman cannot and will not kill anyone no matter how purely evil and dispicable they may be.

At the same time, like i said, whenever u see these evil bastards do something truly dispicable, its a bit irritating just to see the hero toss them away in jail for the zillionth time. I understand why i needs to be that but its still frustrating no less.

And DRZ, the strange thing is tho, is that IGN LOVES Morrison's batman stuff and that stuff is a drastic departure from the character.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Also IGN hates it because JMS took away the clichés/stereotypes out of Superman and made it a whole new modern character. So they feel it's not Superman at all, while the whole point of the Earth One book is to modernize and retell the story to a new audience. >__>

Or, maybe, you know, they just didn't like it. Superman in All Star Superman is a very good example of a perfectibility viable modern interpretation of the character, and it's not grim, it's not gritty, and it keeps a lot of the 'cliches' that make the character so great perfectly intact. Grim and gritty =/= modernized to everyone, thankfully.

 

[Drz]

I don't know can everyone consider All Star Superman as a modern story with the space expeditions to the sun and stuff. ASS has alot of heart and shows Superman as a human tho, but then again modern people like street heroes and abit of cyninism sadly, so JMS making a Superman that the masses might like, doesn't seem such an often idea business wise, no? Kinda like making cute-vampire stuff probably isn't bad sales wise thanks to Twilight.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I don't know can everyone consider All Star Superman as a modern story with the space expeditions to the sun and stuff. ASS has alot of heart and shows Superman as a human tho, but then again modern people like street heroes and abit of cyninism sadly, so JMS making a Superman that the masses might like, doesn't seem such an often idea business wise, no? Kinda like making cute-vampire stuff probably isn't bad sales wise thanks to Twilight.

Well, yeah, if we're going to break it down into business decisions, sure, but if we're going to do that we might as well just stop discussing stuff right now, because that's a pretty black and white decision. It's either a bad business move or a good one (Well, occasionally there's that gamble move, but it's rare). Though, yes, I think some would consider that ASS as a modern version of the character, and I'm fairly sure Morrison said it wrote him as such (though I could be wrong, but I believe he said something to the degree he wrote Superman as Superman for the 21st Century).

But, really, if we're just going to define modern = grim and gritty and realistic based, then Superman is ****ed, because then we're just going to end up with Dr. Manhattan, since that's the grimmest, grittiest and realest version of the character that you can get (or, maybe not, since I'm sure someone has figured out a much worse alternative, but that's the only one I can think of).

I see what Tronne Bonne is saying tho. It IS a case of putting too much real world weight on something fictional. Theres a certain level of suspension of disbeleif that comics need in order to work. We're just supposed to beleive that Batman and Superman cannot and will not kill anyone no matter how purely evil and dispicable they may be.

Yeah, more or less. People seem to want superhero comics to become an out and out reflect of 'realism', but I've always felt they should be an imperfect image of the real world.

 

[fifthfiend]

Also IGN hates it because JMS took away the clichés/stereotypes out of Superman

By both reviewers' accounts (and your own) it sounds like he took out Superman's uniqueness and replaced it with stereotypes and cliches.

EDIT: what's that you say a YOUNG MAN who is ANGSTY and harbors thoughts of REVENGE, in a setting which is GRITTY, and STREET LEVEL?

HMMMMMM

hmmmmmm

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Superman killed Darkseid in Final Crisis and killed Mandrak as well.

Do those count? I don't really know much about Mandrak, but Darkseid is basically unkillable the way Morrison envisioned him, right? He's the embodiment of all evil. "Killing" his physical form is basically equivalent to just pummeling your average supervillain into submission. It's only temporary. Same with Doomsday, whom Superman seems to go after with fully murderous intent every time they fight (definitely at least the first time, since their final blows killed each other).

 

[The Question]

Oh, well, you're pretty much talking about the All Star line aren't you? At least in theory, since someone could easily take that approach with that line. I don't think they're really taking that philosophy with Earth One, so the ending would be forced due to sales. Though, I guess they could collectively spin that failure into an end somehow

Well, yes, in theory the All Star Line could be used for that. But what I'm talking about would be much longer and larger and would probably end up overshadowing anything else being put out under the All Star title.

 

[Kurosawa]

Try people who read Superman before the war. I mean before the government imposed themselves on comics Superman use to be almost as dark as what Batman is today he was not always the boy scout. Not until after the war did he become that.

The boy scout thing was really more a product of the movies than anything. It became codified in the comics when Byrne made his Superman which he basically did by combining George Reeves Clark with Chris Reeve's Superman and added a side of Spider-Man before Uncle Ben was killed and Colossus for good measure.

Damn, so is it safe to say that so far JMS' tenure at DC is incredibly underwhelming? I always felt like Superman would be the perfect character for someone like JMS to write but man he seems to be batting zero with him so far. His wonder woman stuff aint all that great either.

I thought Grounded would be better than it was because of the social commentary thing but it is just too preachy and now we have OOC Superman and Dick Grayson added to it; his WW I expected to really rock and it's just meh, the only reason anyone cares is the costume change.

One of the better minor revelations I've had in my life is that Al Gore is basically our Jor-El.

Very true. As I've said before, the theft of Kandor (in some versions) could also be part of why Jor-El wasn't taken seriously, as a new Government would have had to been formed and it would possibly hold him responsible. Especially if Krypton is depicted as having a space program and if they thought it might have attracted Brainiac, Jor-El could have been the fall guy for Kandor's loss-and Lara as well since she was the top astronaut of Krypton's space program.

Eh, a case of comics becoming far too dark and people trying to put too much real world weight and rationalizations to characters that really shouldn't have them. I'll never understand the need people see for those two elements to enter superhero comics so prominently. Watchmen was cool, for what it was, but I wouldn't consider that a template for these kinds of things.



Eh, didn't care much for that either. It was different and all, since the universe was collapsing, but I will always prefer characters who finds ways not to kill to those who kill liberally.

If they decide to do a version of the DCU that is in any way supposed to be real, then the public demand for Joker to be executed should be huge. Like Presidential elections should be debated on a promise to execute Joker and Gordon would be canned as Commissioner as soon as Joker got out of Arkham and killed someone with a wealthy family. If superheroes are going to be held to real world standards then Batman should be looked at like a soldier who had Bin Laden in his sights and permission to kill and refused to. Lex I'm not as sure about since his portrayal varies (under Maggin in the 70's he didn't even kill and had never killed), but I'm sure the "Earth One" Joker will be a brutal murderer.

 

[fifthfiend]

If they decide to do a version of the DCU that is in any way supposed to be real, then the public demand for Joker to be executed should be huge. Like Presidential elections should be debated on a promise to execute Joker and Gordon would be canned as Commissioner as soon as Joker got out of Arkham and killed someone with a wealthy family. If superheroes are going to be held to real world standards then Batman should be looked at like a soldier who had Bin Laden in his sights and permission to kill and refused to. Lex I'm not as sure about since his portrayal varies (under Maggin in the 70's he didn't even kill and had never killed), but I'm sure the "Earth One" Joker will be a brutal murderer.

Gotham presumably exists in a state that has no death penalty, although I guess if they could get him on anything under federal jurisdiction then they could use the federal death penalty.

Really though I think it would be more realistic, for our "realistic" Earth One, for the Joker to just get sentenced to jail for life, and then he goes to jail, and doesn't escape at all, the way the vast majority of people never escape from jail.

Like if Gotham were real people wouldn't be angry at the unaccountable vigilante for not murdering this criminal on their behalf or the police force that keeps successfully arresting him, they'd be pissed off at the complete ****ups running the penal system that allows this crazy jackass to escape over and over again and the governor who allows these ****ups to run the penal system that allows this crazy jackass to escape over and over again.

EDIT: I take it back, I looked it up and New York technically still does have a death penalty on the books (unused since the 70s but it's there), they would absolutely bring that out of mothballs to kill the Joker.

 

[Kurosawa]

Gotham presumably exists in a state that has no death penalty, although I guess if they could get him on anything under federal jurisdiction then they could use the federal death penalty.

Really though I think it would be more realistic, for our "realistic" Earth One, for the Joker to just get sentenced to jail for life, and then he goes to jail, and doesn't escape at all, the way the vast majority of people never escape from jail.

Like if Gotham were real people wouldn't be angry at the unaccountable vigilante for not murdering this criminal on their behalf or the police force that keeps successfully arresting him, they'd be pissed off at the complete ****ups running the penal system that allows this crazy jackass to escape over and over again and the governor who allows these ****ups to run the penal system that allows this crazy jackass to escape over and over again.

EDIT: I take it back, I looked it up and New York technically still does have a death penalty on the books (unused since the 70s but it's there), they would absolutely bring that out of mothballs to kill the Joker.

That and Joker has killed people all over the world and all through the US. Not that a new "Earth One" version would have that record right at the beginning.

 

[The Question]

EDIT: I take it back, I looked it up and New York technically still does have a death penalty on the books (unused since the 70s but it's there), they would absolutely bring that out of mothballs to kill the Joker.

1: Gotham is in New Jersey, not New York.

2: The Joker is still legally insane. The legally insane can't be executed. Now, there might be a major public movement to have this changed, but by law they can't kill him.


Anyway, I think the most realistic thing for The Joker is to have his arrests/escapes be in the single digits, and simply have him be at large and on the run most of the time.

 

[Mystirious]

Eh, a case of comics becoming far too dark and people trying to put too much real world weight and rationalizations to characters that really shouldn't have them. I'll never understand the need people see for those two elements to enter superhero comics so prominently. Watchmen was cool, for what it was, but I wouldn't consider that a template for these kinds of things.



Eh, didn't care much for that either. It was different and all, since the universe was collapsing, but I will always prefer characters who finds ways not to kill to those who kill liberally.

Agreed Tron Bonne

 

[PreK]

Writers shouldn't adhered to the real-world angle, but really that's what makes any story engaging to the reader. For us to understand, sympathize, or be fascinated with any given character's motivations and actions, is crucial to the immersion. The worst thing any writer can do is inadvertently drive a reader out of the story because "that doesn't make any sense!" or "why the hell did they do that? you never do that!". It's why I can only appreciate or enjoy many of the earlier comics, but can't ever really see myself being impacted by them.

 

[Young Superman]

Am I the only one who's glad Kal-El is last Kryptonian in this.

 

[Kurosawa]

1: Gotham is in New Jersey, not New York.

2: The Joker is still legally insane. The legally insane can't be executed. Now, there might be a major public movement to have this changed, but by law they can't kill him.


Anyway, I think the most realistic thing for The Joker is to have his arrests/escapes be in the single digits, and simply have him be at large and on the run most of the time.

A realistic handling of him would also have to ultimately result in Batman killing him or Batman would look pretty negligent...unless they threw a curve and had Joker not kill except when necessary. If he was a serial killer and was so willing to put himself in the public spotlight, I couldn't see him getting away with it for long.

Superheroes by their nature just don't work with super-realistic treatments. It's best done with an internal logic and stories of course should make sense within their own context but trying to make them completely realistic makes them even harder to believe after a while.

 

[The Question]

A realistic handling of him would also have to ultimately result in Batman killing him or Batman would look pretty negligent...

He might look negligent, but if he honestly believes that outright murdering someone, especially someone who is insane and thus not fully responsible for their actions, is wrong, then I don't see a problem with it. It's in character. Doesn't bother me.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Do those count? I don't really know much about Mandrak, but Darkseid is basically unkillable the way Morrison envisioned him, right? He's the embodiment of all evil. "Killing" his physical form is basically equivalent to just pummeling your average supervillain into submission. It's only temporary. Same with Doomsday, whom Superman seems to go after with fully murderous intent every time they fight (definitely at least the first time, since their final blows killed each other).

Darkseid's physical form was already killed by Batman and the Flashes. Superman killed what was left of Darkseid using the Miracle Machine and the Song of the Multiverse.

Superman then killed Mandrak by driving a giant stake construct created by the Green Lanterns through Mandrak's heart.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Gotham presumably exists in a state that has no death penalty, although I guess if they could get him on anything under federal jurisdiction then they could use the federal death penalty

I think that with extent of the Joker's crimes, he would be executed by the federal government.

 

[The Batman]

Am I the only one who's glad Kal-El is last Kryptonian in this.

Yeah, no offense, but you're way too fixated on something that, IMO, ultimately dosent even matter. The world will still spin whether or not supes in the last kryptonian in ANY continuity.

I only say this cause you seem to bring it up quite often.

 

[The Question]

I think that with extent of the Joker's crimes, he would be executed by the federal government.

Again, legally insane. By law, they can't. Not that there wouldn't be public outcry that he should, and it would probably lead to a very heated debate, but as it stands the mentally ill can't be executed for any crimes.

I do agree, however, that his constant arrests and breakouts are ridiculous. Not just for logistical reasons, but for narrative ones as well. The first time The Joker escapes, it's high drama. The 50th, it's tuesday. In a rebooted continuity, I think The Joker should spend the majority of his time at large and maybe be arrested and jailed once or twice.

 

[lixdexia]

Again, legally insane. By law, they can't. Not that there wouldn't be public outcry that he should, and it would probably lead to a very heated debate, but as it stands the mentally ill can't be executed for any crimes.

I do agree, however, that his constant arrests and breakouts are ridiculous. Not just for logistical reasons, but for narrative ones as well. The first time The Joker escapes, it's high drama. The 50th, it's tuesday. In a rebooted continuity, I think The Joker should spend the majority of his time at large and maybe be arrested and jailed once or twice.

joker doesn't meet the critera for legally insane. he knows what he's doing is wrong.