The Dark Knight Well....this is intresting? (Joker news)

[Whack Arnolds]

The way BATMAN BEGINS gave us a faithful rendition of Ra's Al Ghul?

Uhh, Ra's Al Ghul was very much in essence a faithful rendition of the character of Ra's Al Ghul from the comics.

And the makeup thing is more than just makeup. Take into account the notion of The Joker as a performer, and think about his psyche.

Exactly. I think it fits, and feeds into the "theatricality" theme as well.

 

[kytrigger]

GrayGhost~

I'm not referring to Batman having a homosexual fixation on the Joker, but a one sided affair with Joker being completely and erotically obsessed with Batman, is EXTREMELY creepy. When he calls him darling, and stuff like that? It's really creepy. Read a classic Batman graphic novel with the two facing off, it is quite disturbing how Joker looks upon Batman.

I would prefer Joker not have a homosexual fixation with Batman. He can still have an unhealthy obsession, but not erotically. While there have been good representations of Joker where they have hinted at some sort of homosexuality, I always found it much creepier if he showed no signs of sexuality at all.

A common link between all people, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is that they are still attracted to others, and this isn't just with humans either, it is with almost all of the animals in the world too. By having Joker not actually desire any form of sex in any way it alienates him even farther from humanity.

 

[Mister J]

I would prefer Joker not have a homosexual fixation with Batman. He can still have an unhealthy obsession, but not erotically. While there have been good representations of Joker where they have hinted at some sort of homosexuality, I always found it much creepier if he showed no signs of sexuality at all.

A common link between all people, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is that they are still attracted to others, and this isn't just with humans either, it is with almost all of the animals in the world too. By having Joker not actually desire any form of sex in any way it alienates him even farther from humanity.

Thank Heaven for reason.

I don't think they need to intimate any homoerotic tendencies on The Joker's part. Yes, I've seen that in some of the stories, but that doesn't need to make it's way into the film. There are plenty of other ways to make The Joker way creepy.

His obsession should be there, but it's more of a psychological obsession. Batman is his foil. I'd rather Nolan spend time conveying how the distinctive personalities of Batman and The Joker intertwine.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

You just don't want to see one of your favorite characters, have a sexual fixation on Batman. Because it may be frowned upon, or looked at as sissy thus taking away Joker's "badass-ness"...which completely isn't the case. A hint at it will be extremely creepy, and very entertaining. I hope they do it.

 

[Mister J]

You just don't want to see one of your favorite characters, have a sexual fixation on Batman. Because it may be frowned upon, or looked at as sissy thus taking away Joker's "badass-ness"...which completely isn't the case. A hint at it will be extremely creepy, and very entertaining. I hope they do it.

Again, I've seen it referenced in the books and it didn't ruin the story for me. However, it didn't really resonate with me either. I believe introducing an erotic obsession on Joker's part complicates things more than it raises the creepy factor.

Your last post says 'hint', while your original argument read 'completely and erotically obsessed'. I believe the latter to be way problematic. A subtle hint could work (some random barb or passing reference), but a full-blown obsession isn't creepy. What would heighten the viewers attention is if they don't know what to make of this guy...is he or isn't he? There's no mystery if it takes on a life of it's own.

There's more than enough subject matter to delve into without placing reliance on something likely viewed to be a stunt anyway.

 

[Ronny Shade]

to me it would look too much like a cheap ploy for critical acclaim

 

[Rynan]

to me it would look too much like a cheap ploy for critical acclaim

Agreed.

 

[블라스]

Plus, the franchise certainly does not need any "Brokeback Gotham" jokes, which you just KNOW lame critics and people everywhere would start to use

 

[knifeedgedave]

Could the Joker role be more akin then, to MotP- not the main villain n not in it a lot but was a huge presence.

 

[Rynan]

Could the Joker role be more akin then, to MotP- not the main villain n not in it a lot but was a huge presence.

I belive so. Yes.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Ya, I do not mind Joker having a small role but The Mask of the Phantasm is a good example. He was not the main villain but he made a big appearance.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

GrayGhost~

I'm not referring to Batman having a homosexual fixation on the Joker, but a one sided affair with Joker being completely and erotically obsessed with Batman, is EXTREMELY creepy. When he calls him darling, and stuff like that? It's really creepy. Read a classic Batman graphic novel with the two facing off, it is quite disturbing how Joker looks upon Batman.

Homosexual fixation. Erotically obsessed. They're essentially two expressions with the same implication. I don't want any of that. No lipstick. No Dye. No make-up. No "darling." I'd rather be creeped out at his sick sense of humor (while truly funny, is very, very dark if placed within the context of the situation) and the horrible things he does. And this isn't because I think it would degrade the masculinity of the character, but because it isn't representative of his relationship with the Batman. Must I refer to ROTJ?

 

[Whack Arnolds]

ROTJ is a cartoon canon that is meant to be toned down to fit a predominately CHILDREN's audience. It does not degrade either Batman or Joker's masculinity. Masculinity is completely subjective. It just gives an awkward and even further creepiness to the character of the Joker. All the best Joker stuff has him with homosexual fixation. See Killing Joke, DKR, The Man Who Laughs, etc.

 

[kytrigger]

ROTJ is a cartoon canon that is meant to be toned down to fit a predominately CHILDREN's audience. It does not degrade either Batman or Joker's masculinity. Masculinity is completely subjective. It just gives an awkward and even further creepiness to the character of the Joker. All the best Joker stuff has him with homosexual fixation. See Killing Joke, DKR, The Man Who Laughs, etc.

I don't think that ROTJ toned it down to fit a children's audience at all. The part where Joker kidnaps Robin, tortures him, and does face altering surgery on him isn't very kid friendly.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

I don't think that ROTJ toned it down to fit a children's audience at all. The part where Joker kidnaps Robin, tortures him, and does face altering surgery on him isn't very kid friendly.

Yeah, you're talking about the un-rated version, meant for adults. Either way, the stuff isn't shown. And what "face altering" surgery? He puts a Joker chip into Robin's brain...that's it.

 

[kytrigger]

Yeah, you're talking about the un-rated version, meant for adults. Either way, the stuff isn't shown. And what "face altering" surgery? He puts a Joker chip into Robin's brain...that's it.

Yes, it's the unrated version for adults, but the Joker is still the same in the film. They don't give him homosexual tendencies in the unrated version and also cut those from the the rated one.

And I was always under the impression that he didn't just put the chip in him, that he also did surgery that made him look like the Joker, with the smile and whatnot. I thought that they just spent a lot of money getting him corrective surgery after the event was over. I might be wrong on that point, it's been a while since I saw the movie.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

ROTJ isn't the best potrayl of the Joker though, nor is it the creepiest.

 

[kytrigger]

ROTJ isn't the best potrayl of the Joker though, nor is it the creepiest.

True, however I would say that it is arguably the best portrayal of him on film or television, which is a different medium than comics.

 

[Mr. Socko]

True, however I would say that it is arguably the best portrayal of him on film or television, which is a different medium than comics.

ROTJ is the creepiest film/television version of The Joker. The creepiest all around Joker is the Arkham Asylum one.

Anyway, Joker ain't gay. Like Zer00 pointed out earlier, Harley is there to prove it. He's flamboyant but not homosexual...like Prince.

Oh and yeah, there'd be so many Batman/Joker "Broke-Bat Mountain" jokes that it would be stupid.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

ROTJ isn't the best potrayl of the Joker though, nor is it the creepiest.

I disagree completely...

ROTJ is a cartoon canon that is meant to be toned down to fit a predominately CHILDREN's audience. It does not degrade either Batman or Joker's masculinity. Masculinity is completely subjective. It just gives an awkward and even further creepiness to the character of the Joker. All the best Joker stuff has him with homosexual fixation. See Killing Joke, DKR, The Man Who Laughs, etc.

So you admit it. First you said "erotic obsession" and now you say "homosexual fixation." All the same, it all comes down to whether you like that portrayal or not. I don't. And I hope we don't see any of that crap in the film.

And masculinity is not completely subjective. The term itself refers to how society as a whole views gender roles as distinct. In other words, if a general movie going audience sees The Joker putting on lip-stick or sees him being "attracted" to Batman, they will collectively view The Joker as feminine (lip-stick) and gay (attracted to Batman.) Although one may be secure about their manhood while putting on lip-stick and being "attracted" to another male, there is no escaping the fact that society will view this as non-masculine.

His obsession should be there, but it's more of a psychological obsession. Batman is his foil. I'd rather Nolan spend time conveying how the distinctive personalities of Batman and The Joker intertwine

Exactly. It's mostly about the duality of order and chaos. And it's like someone said ealier, The Joker is a performer. And the only person in his audience that he can't get over the edge is Batman. He never got a laugh out of Batman. And, yeah, that's some ROTJ too.

 

[Mr. Socko]

How is The Joker gay in The Killing Joke or DKR?

But like Mr. J was saying, a scene showing The Joker put on lipstick and dye his hair and put on makeup would be entirely useless and completely stupid. Just have him in his normal appearance and don't explain how or why.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

I never said he was "gay", I said he has a homosexual fixation on Batman. It is THERE in many Joker stories. Sure he taps the ass of Harley Quinn every now and then, but that doesn't mean he isn't or doesn't have an attraction to Batman.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

Oh and yeah, there'd be so many Batman/Joker "Broke-Bat Mountain" jokes that it would be stupid.

Joker having a sexual fixation on Batman, in no way makes BATMAN gay. Who cares if those jokes are made? They are being made anyway, cause its funny. He is just the object of the affection of Joker. Both pyschologically and physically. It's there in between the lines. I hope its in there, cause it is creepy as hell.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

I never said he was "gay", I said he has a homosexual fixation on Batman. It is THERE in many Joker stories. Sure he taps the ass of Harley Quinn every now and then, but that doesn't mean he isn't or doesn't have an attraction to Batman.

I think I know what you are trying to say, but you have to realize that "homosexual fixation" is essentially the same as being gay. Just break it down and you'll see what I mean. And as for the stories that do refer to this fixation, I've always overlooked them. Because I disagree with that interpretation.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

I think I know what you are trying to say, but you have to realize that "homosexual fixation" is essentially the same as being gay. Just break it down and you'll see what I mean. And as for the stories that do refer to this fixation, I've always overlooked them. Because I disagree with that interpretation.

No... it isn't. Take it as being bi-sexual then. You can have a homosexual crush on someone and not be gay. And who cares if it is considered as Joker being gay? It's there in alot of Joker stories.