What are your complaints? What would you do differently? *SPOILERS* - Part 1

[IncognitoWalrus]

I loved Begins when it came out and was underwhelmed the first time I saw the Dark Knight. Though I did see the latter after a day of no sleep. Still really enjoy all three though Begins has a special place in my heart as an amazing origin story with flaws I can happily get over.

Same, I was super giddy after I got out of BB, but I came out of TDK feeling really empty. Probably because everything went downhill for the characters so fast.

 

[BlueLantern]

With the Dark Knight I was a bit underwhelmed on the first viewing because I went in expecting a continuation of the dark but comic book like tone of Begins. Instead I got thrown sideways into a crime drama and it wasn't until the second viewing that I was in 'holy ****, this is amazing' mode. That film is just so tightly knit and tidy.

 

[BH/HHH]

I loved the Dark Knight when I first saw it but over the years whilst I do still love it I find it to be a film that's abit too long and I never fell in love with it like I did with Batman Begins.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Screw it, this is making me wanna have a TDK trilogy marathon.

But I just know it's gonna get me all upset and frustrated. Because it just seems to unfair to me that we couldn't get something of the same quality with MOS, despite it being a product of basically the same creative team with a few differences and Snyder to boot.

There is still a little part of me going 'How did this happen?'... the same part that had me pinching myself on the coach home from London because I genuinely wondered if I was having a nightmare.

I will never in a million years understand how the film got to the big screen with that many plot, dialogue and editing problems - despite having sooooo much time in post.

 

[BH/HHH]

Screw it, this is making me wanna have a TDK trilogy marathon.

But I just know it's gonna get me all upset and frustrated. Because it just seems to unfair to me that we couldn't get something of the same quality with MOS, despite it being a product of basically the same creative team with a few differences and Snyder to boot.

There is still a little part of me going 'How did this happen?'... the same part that had me pinching myself on the coach home from London because I genuinely wondered if I was having a nightmare.

I will never in a million years understand how the film got to the big screen with that many plot, dialogue and editing problems - despite having sooooo much time in post.

Well I loved MOS so I'm glad it made it to the screen the way it did. If I had to ask how a film made it to the screen with those sorts of problems I'd have said the Dark Knight Rises, Green Lantern or Iron Man 2.

 

[MrMaooz]

I would have liked more in the cornfield with Supes and Lois.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Well I loved MOS so I'm glad it made it to the screen the way it did. If I had to ask how a film made it to the screen with those sorts of problems I'd have said the Dark Knight Rises, Green Lantern or Iron Man 2.

It's baffling for us to be on the opposite sides of this I genuinely wanna understand, but I just don't.

What did you think was good about the dialogue exactly?

Why did you like the editing?

What was so great about the plot for you?

 

[BH/HHH]

I would have liked more in the cornfield with Supes and Lois.

Are you thinking Clark, Lois and some Barry White in the background?

 

[MrMaooz]

Are you thinking Clark, Lois and some Barry White in the background?

Nah, I was thinking of some Bob Marley in the background.

 

[BH/HHH]

It's baffling for us to be on the opposite sides of this I genuinely wanna understand, but I just don't.

What did you think was good about the dialogue exactly?

Why did you like the editing?

What was so great about the plot for you?

But what was supposedly wrong about the dialogue though? I can't think of anything I didn't like or made me go

I loved the non linear story telling and especially the way the fight scenes and flying scenes were edited, it was so fast.

Superman's origin story is my favourite story ever, I loved their take on it and how everything connected from start to finish. I also love that they put their own spin on things like with the death of Jonathan Kent etc

Add the Krypton sequence was beautiful and engaging. The moment where he found his ship was so intriguing to me and I loved that last hour. It was a fight for the planet and the moment where he has to kill Zod is so heart wrenching. that very final scene at the DP left me with the biggest smile on my face. I just love this movie, seen it 3 times now and each time it's gotten better.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the film.

 

[BH/HHH]

Nah, I was thinking of some Bob Marley in the background.

Ha ha that's be even funnier

 

[tomoe]

And I know this has been beaten to death already, but the whole “Why didn’t Superman just fly away and the battle elsewhere” is just…will people…please, please, please stop saying that?

You cannot seriously think to critique a movie’s quality based on logic and then introduce such a silly idea as that, which has little to no logic in it.

In the Metropolis battle, Superman never had the upper hand. The idea that Zod would suddenly display a level of idiocy and just be tricked into doing what Superman wants him to is laughable, and I cannot believe people keep suggesting it. Zod wanted to kill people. If Superman had flown off, Zod would have killed people.

Not disagreeing that Superman probably didn't have control of the fight to take it elsewhere, but I think they could have portrayed the Zod hellbent on killing people thing better. The whole battle with Zod, Zod was trying to kill Superman, not really targeting people. It would have been more convincing if, instead of fighting Superman, he was actively trying to kill people and cause as much damage as possible, like heat visioning buildings to make them fall ( I know he did that to one building, but that seemed more like an accident and a losing control of his powers thing) or throwing cars at crowds of people. Superman would be the one actively engaging Zod in a fight because Zod wouldn't be trying to fight Superman, he would be trying to kill as many people as possible. I think the fight going this way would make it clear that Zod wouldn't follow Superman if he just flew off.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

But what was supposedly wrong about the dialogue though? I can't think of anything I didn't like or made me go

That doesn't answer my question though does it?

I mean, there where plenty of lines that were a bit corky (like the lines after their kiss, which I had to roll my eyes at), but that wouldn't bother me.

What is dissapointing for me is not none of the dialogue is great.

There is not a single quote, from any of the characters, that I would wanna use as my sig or post on my facebook. No one said anything remotely intelligent, inspiring or intriguing IMO.

I loved the non linear story telling and especially the way the fight scenes and flying scenes were edited, it was so fast.

I like non linear stories. I just thought their attempt at one here was incredibly badly done, due to the length of scenes and the fact that they just jumped into 'event' flashbacks with just a couple of lines of dialogue as lead up within that time period in order connect to where the characters are (emotionally and physically) within the story.

Example 1: We go from Krypton, to a couple of lines of dialogue on the boat. Then, BAM! it jumps straight in the middle of the oil rig action scene, which is over before you know it.

Example 2: We jumped to slightly older kid Clark on a bus. We get one line of dialogue from a bully. That is all, and then BAM! action scene...

Example 3: We have a few seconds back a forth with adolescent Clark and the Kents in the truck, then BAM! tornado action scene...

There is no natural development, of character or of plot. It is all simply functional, because they want it to lead to a certain place, a certain check box they want to tick within the story.

Which, IMO, is bad storytelling.

Superman's origin story is my favourite story ever, I loved their take on it and how everything connected from start to finish. I also love that they put their own spin on things like with the death of Jonathan Kent etc

Superman's origin is my favourite ever too. But I hated a lot of the changes, because they seemed illogical, unrealistic, and I felt they detracted from the most important parts of many of the characters.

Add the Krypton sequence was beautiful and engaging.

I think a lot of what was happened on krypton was badly conveyed (as in it came across as stupid to me), but in terms of the emotional scenes between Lara and Jor-el, they were some of the best in the film to me

The moment where he found his ship was so intriguing to me and I loved that last hour. It was a fight for the planet and the moment where he has to kill Zod is so heart wrenching. that very final scene at the DP left me with the biggest smile on my face. I just love this movie, seen it 3 times now and each time it's gotten better.

I've seen it 4. I'm completely nuts.

I enjoy the film because I enjoy almost all Superman stories in some way or another. But I'd say I enjoy it about as much as a good Smallville episode.

I wanted to be able to have a Superman movie that was a GREAT MOVIE AND and GREAT SUPERMAN STORY, and I can't call it either.

It was a deeply flawed movie, and a deeply flawed Superman story to me.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the film.

Me too

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Not disagreeing that Superman probably didn't have control of the fight to take it elsewhere, but I think they could have portrayed the Zod hellbent on killing people thing better. The whole battle with Zod, Zod was trying to kill Superman, not really targeting people. It would have been more convincing if, instead of fighting Superman, he was actively trying to kill people and cause as much damage as possible, like heat visioning buildings to make them fall ( I know he did that to one building, but that seemed more like an accident and a losing control of his powers thing) or throwing cars at crowds of people. Superman would be the one actively engaging Zod in a fight because Zod wouldn't be trying to fight Superman, he would be trying to kill as many people as possible. I think the fight going this way would make it clear that Zod wouldn't follow Superman if he just flew off.

This would have been great. Not only would it have felt a lot more like 'Yeah, he's never going to stop trying to kill people and Supes is eventually going to fail to save someone, so this has to stop', but it would have also introduced the opportunity for the film to show a bit more of Superman actually rescueing civillians.

 

[BH/HHH]

That doesn't answer my question though does it?

I mean, there where plenty of lines that were a bit corky (like the lines after their kiss, which I had to roll my eyes at), but that wouldn't bother me.

What is dissapointing for me is not none of the dialogue is great.

There is not a single quote, from any of the characters, that I would wanna use as my sig or post on my facebook. No one said anything remotely intelligent, inspiring or intriguing IMO.

But my point with the dialogue was I didn't think any of it was bad so I wanted to know what bothered you about it. I think it's really quotable but most if the quotable stuff was in the trailers.

I like non linear stories. I just thought their attempt at one here was incredibly badly done, due to the length of scenes and the fact that they just jumped into 'event' flashbacks with just a couple of lines of dialogue as lead up within that time period in order connect to where the characters are (emotionally and physically) within the story.

Example 1: We go from Krypton, to a couple of lines of dialogue on the boat. Then, BAM! it jumps straight in the middle of the oil rig action scene, which is over before you know it.

Example 2: We jumped to slightly older kid Clark on a bus. We get one line of dialogue from a bully. That is all, and then BAM! action scene...

Example 3: We have a few seconds back a forth with adolescent Clark and the Kents in the truck, then BAM! tornado action scene...

There is no natural development, of character or of plot. It is all simply functional, because they want it to lead to a certain place, a certain check box they want to tick within the story.

Which, IMO, is bad storytelling.

Fair enough, I liked it it was like a comic.

Superman's origin is my favourite ever too. But I hated a lot of the changes, because they seemed illogical, unrealistic, and I felt they detracted from the most important parts of many of the characters.

I disagree I loved the changes, the fortress been a ship was a great idea, Jonathan Kent's death fir with the theme of the film and had me in tears, plus his many times can we get a heart attack?

I think a lot of what was happened on krypton was badly conveyed (as in it came across as stupid to me), but in terms of the emotional scenes between Lara and Jor-el, they were some of the best in the film to me

The Krypton sequence might be my favourite ever thing on film. It was beautiful and it was so interesting. I want a prequel.

I've seen it 4. I'm completely nuts.

I enjoy the film because I enjoy almost all Superman stories in some way or another. But I'd say I enjoy it about as much as a good Smallville episode.

I wanted to be able to have a Superman movie that was a GREAT MOVIE AND and GREAT SUPERMAN STORY, and I can't call it either.

It was a deeply flawed movie, and a deeply flawed Superman story to me.

I think it's GREAT on both those levels. We're gonna have to agree to disagree.

Me too

 

[Rock Sexton]

The dialogue was downright dreadful in spots.

 

[BH/HHH]

The dialogue was downright dreadful in spots.

Fair enough if you feel that way, I didn't think it was bad at all.

 

[Grommers]

The dialogue was downright dreadful in spots.

Personally, wouldn't say dreadful, it just isn't as memorable as BB TDK and TDKR quotes, and even some ironman quotes. Hulk has his hulk smash quote, or puny humans etc.


I feel like some of the people all have this idea, and probably grew up with the original superman movies that they truly understand the character, they already know his powers, his limitations, his backstory.

This is a reboot to hopefully introduce the character to the new fans including his powers etc., Smallville took 10 seasons for him to fly in comparison, mind you it had lots of filler, but imagine if they had gone into detail about every little thing about his powers. There is A LOT to take in with superman, much more than Batman ever had. Why? Because batman is human, a couple training scenes, and his philosophy, and well lets be honest, nolan was able to add in characters and there qualities, and fit it in well. Could you imagine if they took the time to explain Lois, and what makes her, so damn wonderful to supes.

We would have gotten a love story, in an already 2.5 hour movie.

And the counter argument would be to take out the action, how are you going to show his true extent of his powers. I have no doubt the sequel will be toned down less, but you'll always know in the back of your head, that this superman is capable of destroying cities within minutes. It's really put him in a good place, it really makes you grasp just how powerful this guy really is, and I feel a lot of people are missing that point and focusing more on other things. The development of his character will consist no doubt in the next couple of movies, but you'll remember this one for the destruction that can be caused.

This alone why this movie has importance beyond other superman films, the realism behind it. That hey a guy this powerful, would destroy cities in fights.

Stop looking for that charismatic, blue scout, he'll come. He just hasn't come yet. He's on his way, and we saw hints of it.





Anyways, my cons of the movie.

No other talk of other super heroes, or mentions or anything.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I'm now watching BB.

I can't tell you how incredible I think the build up is to the Wayne's death is.

It starts with that great little father/son scene where he shows Bruce the pearls. Then leads into the monorail bit, with Bruce seeing the city his father is trying to make better. Then the theatre (including his fear of bats as the reason they left via the back alley was a great addition), then their death.

And then the direct aftermath of that with Gordon, followed by the scenes with Alfred back in the mansion...

I mean, it's a non linear narrative, but it spends a significant amount of time in each time period which helps keep you emotionally engaged in the story and eases the flow of the plot.

The death of JK is a much too short scene, with nothing coming before or after it within that time period in order to have any sort of build up or resonance.

In BB, those scenes are also not followed by Bruce immediately explaining how he felt about it all... because it was quite clear from the dialogue between himself and Alfred as a kid how he felt, it didn't need to be explained to the audience.

If there had been a scene following the tornado scene of JK's funeral, where Clark confessed his guilt to his mother and she told him that his father knew what he was doing and it wasn't the right time... it would have felt like a much more natural way of telling the story.

And it would have led right back to him and Lois in the graveyard, at the same grave.

Just one example of something that could have been so much better with just simple additions that seem so logical to me.

But my point with the dialogue was I didn't think any of it was bad so I wanted to know what bothered you about it. I think it's really quotable but most if the quotable stuff was in the trailers.

I really don't wanna keep going on, because I appreciate that you just like it and that's great

But I never said the dialoge was that bad. I just said it's not, at any point, great.

Even the stuff in the trailers, isn't anything to shout home about.

BB, TDK and TDKR were absolutely FULL of dialogue I loved. It was brimming with quotables. I have friends that go around doing impressions based on the awesome quotes.

Can you give me any examples of bits of the dialogue that you thought was great?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Another thing i'd note, is that the 'present day' stuff with Bruce and Ra's all has so much more of a point to it than Clark's wandering around.

I wish he could have actually been shown to be DOING something.

Like if they'd just shown evidence of how long he'd been following leads trying to find out information of where he was from. A bunch of newspaper articles he'd collected, a diary with notes in, pictures or anything like that.

He just seemed so aimless, and the one bit of him over hearing soldiers talking about the ship seemed more like a 'right place right time' than a reason for why he was where he was.

 

[BH/HHH]

I'm now watching BB.

I can't tell you how incredible I think the build up is to the Wayne's death is.

It starts with that great little father/son scene where he shows Bruce the pearls. Then leads into the monorail bit, with Bruce seeing the city his father is trying to make better. Then the theatre (including his fear of bats as the reason they left via the back alley was a great addition), then their death.

And then the direct aftermath of that with Gordon, followed by the scenes with Alfred back in the mansion...

I mean, it's a non linear narrative, but it spends a significant amount of time in each time period which helps keep you emotionally engaged in the story and eases the flow of the plot.

The death of JK is a much too short scene, with nothing coming before or after it within that time period in order to have any sort of build up or resonance.

In BB, those scenes are also not followed by Bruce immediately explaining how he felt about it all... because it was quite clear from the dialogue between himself and Alfred as a kid how he felt, it didn't need to be explained to the audience.

If there had been a scene following the tornado scene of JK's funeral, where Clark confessed his guilt to his mother and she told him that his father knew what he was doing and it wasn't the right time... it would have felt like a much more natural way of telling the story.

And it would have led right back to him and Lois in the graveyard, at the same grave.

Just one example of something that could have been so much better with just simple additions that seem so logical to me.



I really don't wanna keep going on, because I appreciate that you just like it and that's great

But I never said the dialoge was that bad. I just said it's not, at any point, great.

Even the stuff in the trailers, isn't anything to shout home about.

BB, TDK and TDKR were absolutely FULL of dialogue I loved. It was brimming with quotables. I have friends that go around doing impressions based on the awesome quotes.

Can you give me any examples of bits of the dialogue that you thought was great?

It's not so much that I thought there was alot great stuff but when I watch a film I don't think it has to be quotable. But I tell you some dialogue I love, this is just one word but I can't stop saying Heresy lol, Jor El's you can save her you can save all of them. The my father believed dialogue, lots of Jonathan Kent's dialogue. A good death is its own reward etc theres plenty I think is quotable.

 

[STARMAN]

I think I said this in the other thread but I wish there was more of Superman and Lois. I didn't want him to take her on a romantic flight while "Can You Read My Mind?" plays but they should have done a little more with them. They're in the cornfield together. A perfect moment for something. And then he has to fly away.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I think quotability is overrated. I think "flow" and depth aren't, and I don't think MOS has dialog that always flowed well.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

It's not so much that I thought there was alot great stuff but when I watch a film I don't think it has to be quotable. But I tell you some dialogue I love, this is just one word but I can't stop saying Heresy lol, Jor El's you can save her you can save all of them. The my father believed dialogue, lots of Jonathan Kent's dialogue. A good death is its own reward etc theres plenty I think is quotable.

I guess dialogue/script is just more important to me than some people. Kind of like how I love lyrics so much for songs, but some people just prefer songs that they like the sound of, even if the lyrics aren't great.

I think quotability is overrated. I think "flow" and depth aren't, and I don't think MOS has dialog that always flowed well.

I don't think it had either. I don't think anyone had a conversation long enough for anything to flow TBH.

I think the longest actual conversation was between Zod and Clark in Clark's mind, and that was all 'explanation stuff'.

 

[BH/HHH]

I guess dialogue/script is just more important to me than some people. Kind of like how I love lyrics so much for songs, but some people just prefer songs that they like the sound of, even if the lyrics aren't great.



I don't think it had either. I don't think anyone had a conversation long enough for anything to flow TBH.

I think the longest actual conversation was between Zod and Clark in Clark's mind, and that was all 'explanation stuff'.

Fair enough, I thought the conversation was fine but each to their own.