What if Iran gets nuclear weapons?

[DACrowe]

Then you heard him say a better deal should be negotiated, with tougher sanctions imposed at the same time, to avoid a physical conflict with a nuclear armed Iran.



Sorry, I can't agree with that level of crazy.

Israel is the sane party here.

I haven't commented here in a long time but I just have to say I strongly dislike this bit of dishonestly that comes from Netanyahu and his American defenders (many of whom simply like the idea of him being POTUS instead of Obama).

1) The sanctions we have now were designed to get them to come to the table in the first place. And their strongest points were negotiated by the Obama administration (note: not Bush) that somewhat inconceivably got Russia and China to come onboard. Since then, Putin has returned to Russia as president--Obama had a much better relationship with Medvedev before Putin's 2012 reascension. Since then, relations between Russia and the U.S. have not been what I'd classify as "great." Russia is looking for an excuse to pull out of the sanctions, and if they did, so likely would the Chinese. As a result, these sanctions may fall apart.

2) If we are to believe what Netanyahu has been saying (for 20 years) at face value, then that means Iran will have nuclear capabilities in a year. In which case, the clock has run out. Which leads us to...

3) Netanyahu asking for more sanctions and a better deal sounds about as genuine as his lip-service to a two-state solution in Israel where he allows settlements to continue being built along the West Bank.

If this is a bad deal, it's a bad deal and we should walk away. However, at the moment, we don't know what the deal looks like. But we do know that the Netanyahu solution is: bomb the sites and put them back 3-5 years. Then they'll be even more hellbent on building nuclear weapons. At which point, there is one solution.

Netanyahu asking for a better deal is like Bush saying if Saddam just leaves the capital in the next 24 hours we'll call off the war. Look at the actions, not the words.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Wait, does Netanyahu still pay lip service to the two state solution?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Wait, does Netanyahu still pay lip service to the two state solution?

No he doesn't. As a matter in fact, he flat out stated that his previous support for a two-state solution of a demilitarized Palestinian state is no longer relevant.

 

[DACrowe]

As I said, lip service.

I imagine if the deal falls through (for legitimate reasons or not) and Iran actually becomes capable of building nuclear weapons, he will also say his desire for waiting for a better deal will be no longer relevant.

I am not saying we should blindly trust Iran or take whatever deal is ultimately reached (if any). But just know Bibi was lying through his teeth when he used our Congress as a political prop last week.

 

[Taarna]

hippie_hunter When a group is pushed into a corner and put into a situation of desperation, they are going to use desperate tactics that seem unsavory to our Western ideals. This concept of what is and what isn't a terrorist group is so anachronistic to the realities of the modern world.

What we have is bad leadership. If the Palestinians wanted peace, they would act as such, remove teaching hate, and go about it peacefully. Over the course of time, they would get something. Victory for them can not be achieved by strength at arms. Yet that's all they try. But if Iran gets nuclear weapons, the game becomes more dangerous as they fund terrorism to some groups. Think about that Hippie.

Until then I find it rather concerning that you are okay with terrorists attacks against civilians achieve goals. Radicals killing in the name of their religion can not be reasoned with. Are you okay with ISIS too?

They are taught to hate because Israel has occupied their lands and oppressed them for decades. But I guess in your world, they should just be completely okay with Israel constantly ****ing them up the ass.

A quick history lesson. There was never a nation known as Palestine. Never. It was land with various groups. The map has been the same for over 40+ years. Israel is being reactive to terrorism. Any nation when attacked has a right to defend itself. I say again, if some nation or group did the same to the USA they would pay 5X as much

They were cheering because they see us as the oppressors. We're the ones who keep on arming Israel to attack them.

I'm sorry, but any group cheering on 9-11 as the Palestinians did do not deserve our symphony. They cheer our suffering and death. Yet you not only give it to them, you attempt justify it acts of terrorism? Maybe they just need a bunch of jobs as someone in the current administration mentioned.

 

[hippie_hunter]

What we have is bad leadership.

I certainly agree with you there. The Israeli leadership is dominated by a bunch of warmongers and the Palestinian leadership is half dominated by inept secularists (Fatah in the West Bank) and Islamists (Hamas in Gaza). You can't have peace with this terrible combination.

If the Palestinians wanted peace, they would act as such, remove teaching hate, and go about it peacefully. Over the course of time, they would get something. Victory for them can not be achieved by strength at arms.

Victory for them isn't going to be achieved through negotiation either. Israel has shown that it has no desire for peace either. Overall, peaceful methods just don't work. Ghandi wouldn't have succeeded if World War II didn't destroy the British Empire. Nelson Mandella wouldn't have succeeded if he didn't have the West backing him and sanctioning the South African government in the 1980's.

Yet that's all they try.

Neither side has really been effective in trying peace.

But if Iran gets nuclear weapons, the game becomes more dangerous as they fund terrorism to some groups. Think about that Hippie.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Don't act like Iran is funding groups like al-Qaeda.

Until then I find it rather concerning that you are okay with terrorists attacks against civilians achieve goals. Radicals killing in the name of their religion can not be reasoned with. Are you okay with ISIS too?

No I do not support ISIS, but you have to recognize the situation that has created ISIS and the fault pretty much squarely belongs to the West for how they have abused the Middle East for over a century.

A quick history lesson. There was never a nation known as Palestine. Never. It was land with various groups. The map has been the same for over 40+ years. Israel is being reactive to terrorism. Any nation when attacked has a right to defend itself. I say again, if some nation or group did the same to the USA they would pay 5X as much

Oh so many things wrong with what you're saying:

1. If you want to say that there was never a nation known as Palestine, then we'll use the same logic as how there was no State of Israel until 1947.

2. Until the State of Israel was created, Arabs were the majority population in what was the British Mandate of Palestine. From the 900's to 1900's, the area was predominantly Arab and Islamic.

3. If you want to say that Israel is being reactive to terrorism, then groups like Hamas are reactive to Israel occupying, annexing, and settling what is Arab territory. How would you react if I just suddenly came into your house and took your stuff and said it was mine with no intention of giving it back?

4. Israel has no right to the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The UN resolution that created the State of Israel also designed an Arab state in the former British Mandate of Palestine.

5. Never said that Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself. But Israel has no right to treat the Palestinian Arabs the way they do.

I'm sorry, but any group cheering on 9-11 as the Palestinians did do not deserve our symphony. They cheer our suffering and death. Yet you not only give it to them, you attempt justify it acts of terrorism?

They cheered for 9/11 because we're the ones who supply Israel with the weapons Israel uses to kill them. While we're not responsible for Israeli atrocities, the United States is rather complicit in it.

Maybe they just need a bunch of jobs as someone in the current administration mentioned.

Actually the Obama Administration is correct in this instance. People just don't turn to radicalism for absolutely no reason. They turn to radicalism because their situation feels hopeless.

 

[summerteeth]

I certainly agree with you there. The Israeli leadership is dominated by a bunch of warmongers and the Palestinian leadership is half dominated by inept secularists (Fatah in the West Bank) and Islamists (Hamas in Gaza). You can't have peace with this terrible combination.


Victory for them isn't going to be achieved through negotiation either. Israel has shown that it has no desire for peace either. Overall, peaceful methods just don't work. Ghandi wouldn't have succeeded if World War II didn't destroy the British Empire. Nelson Mandella wouldn't have succeeded if he didn't have the West backing him and sanctioning the South African government in the 1980's.


Neither side has really been effective in trying peace.


One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Don't act like Iran is funding groups like al-Qaeda.


No I do not support ISIS, but you have to recognize the situation that has created ISIS and the fault pretty much squarely belongs to the West for how they have abused the Middle East for over a century.


Oh so many things wrong with what you're saying:

1. If you want to say that there was never a nation known as Palestine, then we'll use the same logic as how there was no State of Israel until 1947.

2. Until the State of Israel was created, Arabs were the majority population in what was the British Mandate of Palestine. From the 900's to 1900's, the area was predominantly Arab and Islamic.

3. If you want to say that Israel is being reactive to terrorism, then groups like Hamas are reactive to Israel occupying, annexing, and settling what is Arab territory. How would you react if I just suddenly came into your house and took your stuff and said it was mine with no intention of giving it back?

4. Israel has no right to the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The UN resolution that created the State of Israel also designed an Arab state in the former British Mandate of Palestine.

5. Never said that Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself. But Israel has no right to treat the Palestinian Arabs the way they do.


They cheered for 9/11 because we're the ones who supply Israel with the weapons Israel uses to kill them. While we're not responsible for Israeli atrocities, the United States is rather complicit in it.


Actually the Obama Administration is correct in this instance. People just don't turn to radicalism for absolutely no reason. They turn to radicalism because their situation feels hopeless.

Bin Laden was hopeless?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Bin Laden was hopeless?

While bin Laden himself wasn't hopeless, thanks to his family's construction wealth, he was able to tap into the anger and hopelessness that many Arabs have felt for decades. Anger and hopelessness created by the West colonizing them in the early 1900's, creating the State of Israel in a predominantly Arab area, supporting dictatorships that oppressed them, bombing Muslim nations, using them as pawns in the Cold War, overthrowing democratic governments, poverty, etc.

If that suffering and hopelessness didn't exist, bin Laden would not have been able to create the terrorist network he was able to. bin Laden would have been looked upon by the Muslim community, the way Christians look upon Fred Phelps. Instead of looking at things in a black/white or good vs. evil perspective, we need to be taking a look at why these things have come to be. And with that understanding we can work to prevent future al-Qaedas and ISes from happening again. Our current strategy....socially, militarily, and economically, just isn't working; all it is doing is creating more ostracization, and giving the fuel that Islamic radicals need to thrive.

 

[summerteeth]

While bin Laden himself wasn't hopeless, thanks to his family's construction wealth, he was able to tap into the anger and hopelessness that many Arabs have felt for decades. Anger and hopelessness created by the West colonizing them in the early 1900's, creating the State of Israel in a predominantly Arab area, supporting dictatorships that oppressed them, bombing Muslim nations, using them as pawns in the Cold War, overthrowing democratic governments, poverty, etc.

If that suffering and hopelessness didn't exist, bin Laden would not have been able to create the terrorist network he was able to. bin Laden would have been looked upon by the Muslim community, the way Christians look upon Fred Phelps. Instead of looking at things in a black/white or good vs. evil perspective, we need to be taking a look at why these things have come to be. And with that understanding we can work to prevent future al-Qaedas and ISes from happening again. Our current strategy....socially, militarily, and economically, just isn't working; all it is doing is creating more ostracization, and giving the fuel that Islamic radicals need to thrive.

Bin Laden isn't the exception though. Most of the leadership is educated and wealthy. Former CIA officer did a case study of "172 Al Qaeda or a similar group. Just under half were professionals; two-thirds were either middle or upper class and had gone to college; indeed, several had doctorates".

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/opinion/bergen-terrorism-root-causes/

 

[hippie_hunter]

Bin Laden isn't the exception though. Most of the leadership is educated and wealthy. Former CIA officer did a case study of "172 Al Qaeda or a similar group. Just under half were professionals; two-thirds were either middle or upper class and had gone to college; indeed, several had doctorates".

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/opinion/bergen-terrorism-root-causes/

Even though a lot of them are professionals, they still felt hopeless in the society that they're in. Hopelessness goes well beyond wealth, take a look at Jihadi John, a man who had a good paying career as a programmer, but felt ostracized by British society that he went to go join the Islamic State. Also, a lot of movements that take advantage of peoples' hopelessness are led by the intellectual elites like Marxism.

 

[Thundercrack85]

People here probably have no concept of what it's like to live in Gaza. It's hell. You're under perpetual military occupation. Many people living in Gaza are there because of what could reasonably be described as ethnic cleansing. Basic necessities such as water and electricity are not guaranteed.

The international community has abandoned the people living in Gaza. Their attempts to take Israel to court have been blocked time and again.

People do crazy things under such conditions. That's not a justification, but people need to understand that.

 

[hippie_hunter]

People here probably have no concept of what it's like to live in Gaza. It's hell. You're under perpetual military occupation. Many people living in Gaza are there because of what could reasonably be described as ethnic cleansing. Basic necessities such as water and electricity are not guaranteed.

The international community has abandoned the people living in Gaza. Their attempts to take Israel to court have been blocked time and again.

People do crazy things under such conditions. That's not a justification, but people need to understand that.

That's a bingo.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Having said that though, Hamas is a terrorist group. And I don't see support of them as any more justifiable than Germans in the early thirties supporting Nazi terrorists.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Having said that though, Hamas is a terrorist group. And I don't see support of them as any more justifiable than Germans in the early thirties supporting Nazi terrorists.

While the actions of the group aren't justifiable, I can hardly blame society for supporting these groups. Outsiders created hopeless situations for both the Germans and Palestinian Arabs to where they felt like these extreme groups were the best choices.

Also I really wouldn't compare Hamas to the Nazis. The Nazis gained power almost exclusively by taking advantage of the hopelessness and anger of the German people. Hamas on the other hand gained power because they are the ones who stood up to Israel for doing those things that you yourself have mentioned. And while the Fatah government failed spectacularly in addressing the needs of the people, Hamas worked to provide financial support, food, and education to those who desperately need it. That's the primary reason why Hamas came to political power while other groups that were exclusively militant have not. Can you blame the Palestinian people for supporting Hamas when Hamas actually works to address their feelings and needs?

 

[Thundercrack85]

There are alternatives.

The Nazis were also the only ones who did diddly about the Versailles Treaty. Granted, I may be running this analogy into the ground, but there are alternatives.

For example, Gandhi in India comes to mind. Or Mandela in South Africa.

Hamas has done more harm to the Palestinian's cause then any rightwing Israeli could do. And Netanyahu is working his ass off.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Ghandi in India would not have been successful IMO if World War II did not happen. The British let India go because they had no way of keeping their empire together anymore in the post World War II era. They had to let go of India around the same time they had to let go of many of their holdings throughout the world.

And Mandela would not have been successful in South Africa if it weren't for outside factors as well. During the 1980's it was becoming no longer acceptable to support the Apartheid government of South Africa. South Africa was becoming more and more isolated from the outside world. Outside forces played a much larger role in Apartheid's demise than internal factors.

 

[Taarna]

Bin Laden was hopeless?

Hippe has his own views. He does not fundamentally understand terrorism in the name of Islam or any other religion. Bin Laden wasn't hopeless. He master minded 9-11, and used his wealth and fame to trains 1,000's of warriors that wish to do harm to the infidels.

He also does not understand another nations right to defend themselves. In Israel's case, attacks on their citizens is a never ending problem. Citizens, not the military. Why should Israel they treat those in the Gaza strip with a favored status when the people in Gaza treat them with antipathy, and many wish them death / attack them?

If the attacks stop for a long period of time peace in the future is possible.

 

[summerteeth]

Even though a lot of them are professionals, they still felt hopeless in the society that they're in. Hopelessness goes well beyond wealth, take a look at Jihadi John, a man who had a good paying career as a programmer, but felt ostracized by British society that he went to go join the Islamic State. Also, a lot of movements that take advantage of peoples' hopelessness are led by the intellectual elites like Marxism.

How was he ostracized by British society? He was palling around with members of Al-Shabaab and then gets mad when British Security forces stop him from traveling. Sounds like he already was radicalized at that point or at least on a path to radicalization.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Hippe has his own views. He does not fundamentally understand terrorism in the name of Islam or any other religion. Bin Laden wasn't hopeless. He master minded 9-11, and used his wealth and fame to trains 1,000's of warriors that wish to do harm to the infidels.

bin Laden wasn't hopeless but he took advantage of those who felt hopeless.

He also does not understand another nations right to defend themselves. In Israel's case, attacks on their citizens is a never ending problem.

You're twisting words. Somehow, this idea of how Israel has no right to be an oppressor on the Palestinian people is twisted into Israel has no right to defend itself by the people who drink the Israel Kool-Aid. Even though I will criticize the way Israel was created, Israel had the right to defend itself when its Arab neighbors invaded it the moment they declared independence. Israel had the right to defend itself during the various other wars that the Arab powers instigated. And I am not calling for Israel to disarm because only a naive idiot would think that Israel would be safe if it didn't have it's powerful military and nuclear deterrent.

But when Israel does things like their actions in Gaza last year, that is not Israel defending itself, that's Israel making sure that there can be no viable Palestinian Arab state. When Israel is doing things like annexing Palestinian lands, building settlements, and instituting a de-facto Apartheid state, somehow Israel has the "right to defend itself" but the Palestinian Arabs are expected to just take it up the ass.

And considering how completely ineffective Hamas attacks have been, I'd hardly call it a problem for Israel. Hamas' attacks are nothing but a slightly annoying mosquito to Israel.

Citizens, not the military.

Any attempts to attack military targets would end in failure, even more so than Hamas attacks on civilian targets. Attacking civilian areas is the only way for Hamas to get attention and are often retribution for Israel attacking civilian areas.

Why should Israel they treat those in the Gaza strip with a favored status when the people in Gaza treat them with antipathy, and many wish them death / attack them?

Again, think of why the people in Gaza feel that way. Don't act like Israel is some innocent victim here.

If the attacks stop for a long period of time peace in the future is possible.

Both sides need to take the first step together. You can't just have one side end while the other continues their hostilities. Just like Hamas needs to demonstrate that they are capable of living in peace with Israel, Israel needs to show that it is willing to accept an independent Palestinian Arab state.

How was he ostracized by British society? He was palling around with members of Al-Shabaab and then gets mad when British Security forces stop him from traveling. Sounds like he already was radicalized at that point or at least on a path to radicalization.

Do you have any idea of how bad it is for Muslims in Europe? They are treated socially and economically like second-class citizens.

 

[DeadPresident]

You mean like America treats minorities? Or Europe treats Albanians and other Eastern Europeans? Or Arabs treat Pakistanis? I highly condemn the treatment they receive, but surely if you've chosen to stay in a certain place and receive poor treatment a choice must be made on your part or you need to try and affect change in a way that doesn't garner further hate.

I don't really see a radicalized group of black Americans, Albanians or Pakistanis murdering and maiming people in their host countries on the scale of ISIS.

It's a dangerous precedent to create if being unhappy at your treatment in a "non-native" country becomes synonymous with implicit permission to behave like a savage. Would you defend the behavior equally if a radicalized sect of African, Hispanic and Asian Americans started initiating mass violence against all whites they could reach?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Muslims in Europe are treated far, far worse than blacks in America. While there are a lot of problems for blacks in America, many issues that whites are blind to, at least they still feel like Americans. Many nations in Europe work to make their minorities feel like outsiders who don't even belong.

 

[BoredGuy]

I'm sorry
I know this doesn't really pertain to the conversation going on
but I have nowhere else to post it and feel it's just too appropriate

in response to Mr. Cotton's boneheaded move:

 

[DeadPresident]

Muslims in Europe are treated far, far worse than blacks in America. While there are a lot of problems for blacks in America, many issues that whites are blind to, at least they still feel like Americans. Many nations in Europe work to make their minorities feel like outsiders who don't even belong.

Far, far worse? I'm not sure about that. We haven't really collected data on how every minority in England/America feel about how assimilated they are. Suffice it to say you'll get similar answers from a lot of British Muslims about identifying significantly as English. The point is, there are many groups of people all over the world treated similarly that haven't turned into violent psychopaths. I don't think there's enough of a difference between the marginalization felt by British Muslims (some of which are 4th or 5th generation Brits) and any other country's minorities that could explain why they're much more susceptible to being involved in extremist activities.

How many black Americans in a survey sample of like 1 million will say they feel completely American vs Muslims in England? I suspect the answers will be quite similar.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Did congress just basically commit sedition and treason?

 

[Schlosser85]

Yea pretty much.