What makes America right?

[14k london spider]

Strike-hard that makes YOU a traitor.

 

[strike-hard]

Strike-hard that makes YOU a traitor.

Good one



I fully support the war and the efforts of the US and its allies of ridding this world of evil Organizations, Governments and Dictators.

If me feeling that way makes me a traitor than so be it....

 

[Comic Book Boy]

^But what about Bin Laden....I am all for ridding the world of bad dictators....But Bush lied about why we were going to Iraq...And Korea is a MUCH bigger threat than Iraq EVER was....Korea actually has

Spoiler

REAL

WMD's.

 

[Comic Book Boy]

edit

 

[strike-hard]

...And Korea is a MUCH bigger threat than Iraq EVER was....Korea actually has

Spoiler

REAL

WMD's.

Are we not attempting to resolve the situation in N. Korea?

Everyone knows that a war against N. Korea would result in the loss of thousands and thousands of lives, so we are looking for more peaceful ways to resolve the situation. War is always the last alternative.

To avoid war, we must try and talk with Pyongyang and persuade him into ending his nuclear program and hopefully we will succeed.

If not and if he becomes a greater threat, and the talks have lead nowhere, than I say Nuke Em to hell!!

 

[Outsiderzedge]

If not and if he becomes a greater threat, and the talks have lead nowhere, than I say Nuke Em all to hell!!

Wouldn't that mean the end of the civilization as we know it.

 

[strike-hard]

Wouldn't that mean the end of the civilization as we know it.

I was just referring to N. Korea in the post.

 

[Computron2005]

Umm, you still haven't answered my question about the madrassas in Afghhanistan, Strike-hard. BTW I have a suggestion for your custom title. "Shock and Awe" It'
ll be awesome do it! Seriously tho:

I agree with you about the KKK plan half way, we do have to educate people to change their mind. But I also think symbols of the KKK such as the confederate flag should be removed. What if a state adopted the swastika? And the US should start monitoring members of NRA. They already monitor people who are brown so why not members of the NRA?

Please answer my questions and points I have answered yours, why hasn't the US cracked down on Saudi funded Madrassas?

 

[maxwell's demon]

Good one



I fully support the war and the efforts of the US and its allies of ridding this world of evil Organizations, Governments and Dictators.

If me feeling that way makes me a traitor than so be it....

???

feeling that way isn't what makes you unpatriotic!

calling anyone who dissents a "traitor" is what makes you unpatriotic.

it does, however- make you very nationalistic.

seriously man- you're idea of what america IS and what makes a patriot is flat out wrong. And in this case, it's not a matter of my opinion versus your opinion. It's a matter of history versus you're own idea- and the real world versus the idea of the world someone has put into your head.


(im sorry to repeat these quotes for those of you who've been on these boards long enough to see them- but i thnk Fred should read them. and maybe we should read them again)

Edward R. Murrow:
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.

and echoed again by
Dwight D. Eisenhower:
May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.

G. K. Chesterton:
My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober.

John F. Kennedy:
Without debate, without criticism, no administration and no country can succeed -- and no republic can survive

James Madison:
A President is impeachable if he attempts to subvert the
Constitution

President Theodore Roosevelt:
The President is merely the most important among a large number
of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to
the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad
conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal,
able, and disinterested service to the nation as a whole.
Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full
liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it
is exactly as necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to
praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American
citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be
no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the
President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but
the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is
even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant,
about him than about any one else."

Thomas Jefferson:
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.


and finally, here are two we should all think about, every time we come on these boards-

Noam Chomsky:
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.

Will Durant:
Continue to express your dissent and your needs, but remember to remain civilized, for you will sorely miss civilization if it is sacrified in the turbulence of change.
------------------

now- im sure you're going to want to come back at me, us, with the old Samuel Johnson quote- but before you do- please realize that the type of patriotism he was referring to is exactly the type of patriotism you are asking us to follow.

Or,
as Henry David Thoreau said:
Yet some can be patriotic who have no self-respect, and sacrifice the greater to the less. They love the soil which makes their graves, but have no sympathy with the spirit which may still animate their clay. Patriotism is a maggot in their heads.


please, Strike, start being a good american. we need as many as we can get.

 

[Alonsovich]

Wouldn't that mean the end of the civilization as we know it.

That wouldn' be a tragedy seeing how many SOBs there are everywhere right now...

 

[bluejake01]

Are we not attempting to resolve the situation in N. Korea?

Everyone knows that a war against N. Korea would result in the loss of thousands and thousands of lives, so we are looking for more peaceful ways to resolve the situation. War is always the last alternative.

To avoid war, we must try and talk with Pyongyang and persuade him into ending his nuclear program and hopefully we will succeed.

If not and if he becomes a greater threat, and the talks have lead nowhere, than I say Nuke Em to hell!!

So everything you just said applies to Iraq as well. The fact is, Bush didn't follow proper procedure, didn't follow due process. The war IS costing thousands of lives, and Billions of our dollars that would better be spent improving our pitiful public education system (which you are obviously a product of, seeing as you have no debating skills, no concept of global, or american history and really no value to add to any discussion) or our failing healthcare system. War must be a responsible action, taken only when there is no other choice, and when we are in immediate, real, right ****ing now danger.

 

[Predator Farmer]

American is a son of a b*ahem*

 

[strike-hard]

We are taking the first step towards ridding the world of evil.

So for Americans to be against our efforts makes them a good American?

Please, since you used the word good american, please explain to me what your idea of that is......

Is it someone like Kerry who betrays his own country in a time of war?

Someone who believes that fighting against evil is not a good cause?

Are you saying that taking out an evil dictator such as Saddam not the right thing to do?

 

[Constantine J.]

How did Kerry Betray America?

 

[strike-hard]

How did Kerry Betray America?

http://www.kerrylied.com/otherdocs/SBVT-AD.mpg

Traitor Scum.

 

[Constantine J.]

No, no child, specifically. explain it to me. that movie means nothing......

you explain to me why he's a traitor.......

 

[strike-hard]

No, no child, specifically. explain it to me. that movie means nothing.............

Sure it means nothing to somebody who wants to see it that way......

Why even bother with you anymore?

It's useless.

 

[Constantine J.]

so explain it......what do YOU think.
movies mean nothing......else I can post "going up river" you know?

edit:
so you admit you have no opinion or way of expressing any ideas, and when asked for your thoughts you can only say it's useless?

so sad......

 

[maxwell's demon]

We are taking the first step towards ridding the world of evil.

So for Americans to be against our efforts makes them a good American?

Please, since you used the word good american, please explain to me what your idea of that is......

Is it someone like Kerry who betrays his own country in a time of war?

Someone who believes that fighting against evil is not a good cause?

Are you saying that taking out an evil dictator such as Saddam not the right thing to do?

you obviously need to re-read those quotes.

especially if you're saying that about Kerry.

and especially isf you can't understand that what i, and some are others- are doing when we respnd as we do- is precisely what you ask of us- we are trying to fight evil.

and especially if you're still using such a trap-argument as the 'saddam would sitll be in power' routine. don't you see its more complicated than that?
OBVIOUSLY none of us want a leader in power who is as horrible a human being as Saddam.

but if we're going to take someone like that out- we should be doing it for the right reasons, and in the right way.
agian- we didn't care NEARLY enough about the iraqi people, about their culture and their way of living, before we went in.
had we, we wouldnt have thought they were just going to fall at our feet and embrace our idea of american democracy. We wouldnt have hired companies who brought in foreign workers because it required less security, becasue it was more "cost effective".
we wouldnt have placed more emphasis on protecting the oil fields than on protecting the people.
in short, we wouldn't have attacked until we understood what form of government WOULD work there, adn we wouldnt be seeing NEARLY as many iraqis fighting desparately against us now.

Do i think good things will not come of this? of course good will come of this- in the long run. but had we been more dedicated to the Iraqis- and less self interested (although obviously there has to be SOME element of self interest)- the end result would have been better for all of us.



im serious. please be a better american. i f you need help that's fine. but we can't afford any more people who dont care about america. we're here to help. that's all i'm saying.

 

[strike-hard]

you obviously need to re-read those quotes.

especially if you're saying that about Kerry.

and especially isf you can't understand that what i, and some are others- are doing when we respnd as we do- is precisely what you ask of us- we are trying to fight evil.

and especially if you're still using such a trap-argument as the 'saddam would sitll be in power' routine. don't you see its more complicated than that?
OBVIOUSLY none of us want a leader in power who is as horrible a human being as Saddam.

but if we're going to take someone like that out- we should be doing it for the right reasons, and in the right way.
agian- we didn't care NEARLY enough about the iraqi people, about their culture and their way of living, before we went in.
had we, we wouldnt have thought they were just going to fall at our feet and embrace our idea of american democracy. We wouldnt have hired companies who brought in foreign workers because it required less security, becasue it was more "cost effective".
we wouldnt have placed more emphasis on protecting the oil fields than on protecting the people.
in short, we wouldn't have attacked until we understood what form of government WOULD work there, adn we wouldnt be seeing NEARLY as many iraqis fighting desparately against us now.

Do i think good things will not come of this? of course good will come of this- in the long run. but had we been more dedicated to the Iraqis- and less self interested (although obviously there has to be SOME element of self interest)- the end result would have been better for all of us.



im serious. please be a better american. i f you need help that's fine. but we can't afford any more people who dont care about america. we're here to help. that's all i'm saying.

You asking me to be a good American, something I already am.

I don't agree with you on your views, so therefore you might think I am not.

Which is your opinion, and probably the the opinion all of the liberals.

OBVIOUSLY none of us want a leader in power who is as horrible a human being as Saddam.

but if we're going to take someone like that out- we should be doing it for the right reasons, and in the right way.

So here you talk about an evil dictator that shouldn't be in power.

Afterwards you talk about how we should take people out for the right reasons.

Isn't a country with an evil dictator with capabilities of building a large arsenal of weapons a right enough reason?

Now onto the right way....

We attempted to resolve the situation at first peacefully, did we not?

Talks didn't work.

Action is needed.

 

[Constantine J.]

Isn't a country with an evil dictator with capabilities of building a large arsenal of weapons a right enough reason?

did he...really?

 

[maxwell's demon]

you're missing the larger point and you've never responded to the earlier post.

this is not a matter of opinion.
do you still hold that people who question our governnment, who dissent, are traitors?
do you still hold that peopel on these boards are actually evil?
what did those quotes mean to you?

 

[strike-hard]

did he...really?

Even some of the people on your side believed he did.....

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapon stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation .. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

Toilet flush.

 

[Constantine J.]

you mean the quotes from the Intelligence report supplied by the administration right?

toilet flush.....

c'mon, say conquered, I miss it.

 

[strike-hard]

It's okay.

Your living in denial.






Iraq, had weapons or capabale of getting them...

Hard to believe huh?