"What makes you a person", "What makes you a being", and "What makes you human?"

[Varient]

We used to argue such things to stay awake in the Military.

Of course throwing dirt on the idea that if you are/were in the military you are incapable of any sort of deep thought.

Anyway:

Do you see the three as different or the same thing?

Plains indians from three hundred years ago could see you as any two of the three and based on that - kill you if you became an obstruction.

Most racists (imho) can only see people as one of the three, and justify their action by reducing the object of their dislike to the lowest common denominator.

When you consider that a lot of people can see a pet as both a person and a being,... Well you can understand why this can be discussed.

For example: They say that a Goldfish has roughly 2 seconds of long term memory. So IMO it isn't aware of "self" it just "is" and as such it isn't a being.

If it isn't a being,.. then it can't for the same reason be a "person" and of course it is not human.

Yet people put characteristics on ALL their pets to make them "persons" so they can relate to them.


Can you tell I want to talk?

V.

 

[Bubonic]

A think a lot of it is arbitrary, a bunch of anthrocentrism.
There a lot of creatures capable of feeling emotions on par with us, just the understanding of what is happening isn't as indept.

Look at when they are clubbing baby seals, that mama seal sure as heal laments as vehemently as a human mom would.

Humans are special, but not so special as to justify the point we are at in life history. We've taken our self-absorption way to far and compromised everything that lives.

 

[Rando Aces]

keep going. i will lurk. input when necessary.

 

[Varient]

"Antrocentrism" for the sake of the human being putting it on the animal?

okay.

We could debate whether pets have "emotions" on a par with what we experience, but it then becomes an interpretation of what we are seeing in regards to their reactions.

How much emotion does a fish have?

Why will a dog lay on a persons grave in Misery (obvious) but not do the same for a mate?


You read like you are saying it's all the same - Person / being / human.

V.

 

[Guy Gardner]

You are a being by virtue of your sentience. You are a human by virtue of your genetics. Doubly a you a person because of your genetics.


As they said on Sesame Street: One of these things does not belong.

 

[Varient]

You define "person" and "human" as the same.

OKAY.

 

[Guy Gardner]

Out of the thesaurus:

Main Entry: person
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: human
Synonyms: being, bird, body, cat, chap, character, creature, customer, dude, fellow, guy, head, human, identity, individual, individuality, joker*, lad, life, living soul, man, mortal, party, personage, personality, self, somebody, soul, specimen, spirit, unit*
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2008 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
* = informal or slang

 

[Varient]

Out of the thesaurus:

Main Entry: person
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: human
Synonyms: being, bird, body, cat, chap, character, creature, customer, dude, fellow, guy, head, human, identity, individual, individuality, joker*, lad, life, living soul, man, mortal, party, personage, personality, self, somebody, soul, specimen, spirit, unit*
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2008 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
* = informal or slang

Oh I understand the definition from this source.

But it is not always seen this way. Too many pet owners see a "person" when they look at their pet.
Define in your words if you have time what it is to be a "person" please.

V.

 

[Guy Gardner]

A person is a human. The word personality does have its root in the word person, and yes pets can have personalities. However they are not people, they are animals.

Pet owners who see their animals as people have issues. I have a cat with a distinct personality - he thinks he's a dog - but he is not a person. And to answer a question that will surely come up: why do I call my cat a he and not an it? Because he's a male cat.

 

[Bubonic]

Humans are animals though, there is absolutely no proof against this, apart from ideological reasoning that we are somehow better.

We are better in terms of intellect, but each animal has that special something that gave it the edge to still be around today.

Physically many animals are superior to us, but our great intellect has overcome this and we can fly, breathe under water, and do most of the things other animals do, but we certainly don't do them as fantastically.

 

[sithgoblin]

I think...

To be a being, you have to be a biological animal.

To be a person, you have to a biological animal of a species that is capable of abstract reasoning, language, and introspection.

To be a human, you have to be a biological animal of the specific species Homo Sapien.

 

[Bubonic]

^way to break it down so eloquently, kudos!

 

[Varient]

A person is a human. The word personality does have its root in the word person, and yes pets can have personalities. However they are not people, they are animals.

Pet owners who see their animals as people have issues. I have a cat with a distinct personality - he thinks he's a dog - but he is not a person. And to answer a question that will surely come up: why do I call my cat a he and not an it? Because he's a male cat.

(smile)
We have lots of people with issues. There are folk who dress their animals, put suglasses on them, give them names like boomer and clarence.

So for them their pet is a "person".

In contrast, I know people who talk to plants but could never see them as people,.. but believe they are beings because they appear to respond to music/talking.

We are all technically animals so I assume when you say it - you are saying there is a distinct line between humans and all other animals.

What about Whales? Some class of dolphin which when tested show comparable intelligence levels to humans?

 

[Bubonic]

Just to make it clear, I'm not a person that treats less cognitive animals as if they've got a real indept grasp of what I'm doing.
Just listen to Ceasar Milan... Gotta be the leader of the pack, treat dogs like dogs.

 

[Varient]

Humans are animals though, there is absolutely no proof against this, apart from ideological reasoning that we are somehow better.

We are better in terms of intellect, but each animal has that special something that gave it the edge to still be around today.

Physically many animals are superior to us, but our great intellect has overcome this and we can fly, breathe under water, and do most of the things other animals do, but we certainly don't do them as fantastically.

truth.

Of course I would say that through our tech, we fly better, faster and farther than any animal.
We can swim faster, farther, and depending on level of tech stay underwater for hours to weeks to months. As individual w/o tech,.. anything we emulate that "animals" do easily we are "poor" at at a survival of the fittest level.

So is everyone saying that:
"personhood" is what? Level of intelligence?

 

[Varient]

I think...

To be a being, you have to be a biological animal.

To be a person, you have to a biological animal of a species that is capable of abstract reasoning, language, and introspection.

To be a human, you have to be a biological animal of the specific species Homo Sapien.

So,..
Being = animal
person = animal that can think, reason, and communicate
human = us?


I would split hairs on the person definition as I have seen dogs and cats reason a way to get to food, I have seen dogs and cats try to "Talk" to us in our own language,.. I have watched them display emotions. I have watched a cat "think" (scary).

v.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Animals think, reason and communicate every day.

You can watch the monkeys shaping tools to fish for termites, and customizing stones to be used to crack open seed pods and nuts....dragging both the stones and the food to certain flat rocks, sometimes a mile or more away, because it'll be easier to smash things there.

They also have specific sounds that mean specific things. They communicate to others of their kind.
Even bees communicate where to find pollen with a known, set "language" of tail wags.

 

[cerealkiller182]

Im classified as Homo Sapien!

Thats pretty easy

 

[The Guard]

Aren't there exhaustive scientific definitions for these words?

 

[Varient]

Aren't there exhaustive scientific definitions for these words?

???

Interesting that you would go there.

Are there NOT exhaustive definitions for MOST of the Nouns used in language?


This doesn't stop the splitting of meaning along different schools of thought.

So you can't simply pose that question as if it should end this convo.

It's like someone saying that Love is "One thing" And I consider love to be a simpler concept,... yet there are many defined types of "love".


V.

 

[Varient]

Animals think, reason and communicate every day.

You can watch the monkeys shaping tools to fish for termites, and customizing stones to be used to crack open seed pods and nuts....dragging both the stones and the food to certain flat rocks, sometimes a mile or more away, because it'll be easier to smash things there.

They also have specific sounds that mean specific things. They communicate to others of their kind.
Even bees communicate where to find pollen with a known, set "language" of tail wags.

So there has to be more to define "Person" or you have to include everything from elephants to insects.

V.

 

[sithgoblin]

So,..
Being = animal
person = animal that can think, reason, and communicate
human = us?


I would split hairs on the person definition as I have seen dogs and cats reason a way to get to food, I have seen dogs and cats try to "Talk" to us in our own language,.. I have watched them display emotions. I have watched a cat "think" (scary).

v.

Animals think, reason and communicate every day.

You can watch the monkeys shaping tools to fish for termites, and customizing stones to be used to crack open seed pods and nuts....dragging both the stones and the food to certain flat rocks, sometimes a mile or more away, because it'll be easier to smash things there.

They also have specific sounds that mean specific things. They communicate to others of their kind.
Even bees communicate where to find pollen with a known, set "language" of tail wags.

Language and communication are different things. Bees aren't sent to school to be educated in "tail wagging class"; it is instinct. A human baby can communicate that it needs its diaper changed, but it does not yet speak a language.

Animals are capable of SIMPLE reasoning, but I think we can all agree that figuring out how to push open a door, or crack open a nut, is not on the same level as building the International Space Station. Yet.

Definition of abstract reasoning:

Abstract Reasoning:
The ability to analyze information and solve problems on a complex, thought-based level. Abstract reasoning tasks involve skills such as:

* Forming theories about the nature of objects, ideas, processes, and problem solving;
* Understanding subjects on a complex level through complex analysis and evaluation;
* Ability to apply knowledge in problem-solving using theory, metaphor, or complex analogy; and
* Understanding relationships between nonverbal, non-language based ideas.

Abstract problems are often visual and typically do not involve social ideas.

Abstract reasoning is usually assessed as part of intelligence testing. Abstract reasoning ability is important because it enables students to apply what they learn in complex ways.

Simple reasoning is not abstract reasoning.

 

[SuperFerret]

Language and communication are different things. Bees aren't sent to school to be educated in "tail wagging class"; it is instinct. A human baby can communicate that it needs its diaper changed, but it does not yet speak a language.

Animals are capable of SIMPLE reasoning, but I think we can all agree that figuring out how to push open a door, or crack open a nut, is not on the same level as building the International Space Station. Yet.

Definition of abstract reasoning:



Simple reasoning is not abstract reasoning.

So, in other words, an animal is not a "person" unless they are able to engage in uselss reasoning.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Language and communication are different things. Bees aren't sent to school to be educated in "tail wagging class"; it is instinct. A human baby can communicate that it needs its diaper changed, but it does not yet speak a language.

That was why the discovery of the pod-cracking monkeys was so Earth-Shattering.
Several groups do it, but they all do it in a different way, but the same in their own region, proving that it isn't instinct, but taught. It was likened to the beginnings of "culture".
They also have footage of an older one teaching a younger one how to do it.
It's proven to be learned behavior.

And also, please note that I was responding to Varient's response in which the word choice was "communication".
Animals clearly "communicate".
We can use a better word than I used for "language" in the case of the bees, though a certain number of shifts one way, conveys data, just like scratching in the dirt to keep track of numbers.


In our lifetimes, scientists used the "fact" that humans are the only species that creates and uses tools, to set us apart from the animals, and it's now known to be false.

 

[hammy]

Too many pet owners see a "person" when they look at their pet.
V.

People are nuts.

I think...

To be a being, you have to be a biological animal.

To be a person, you have to a biological animal of a species that is capable of abstract reasoning, language, and introspection.

To be a human, you have to be a biological animal of the specific species Homo Sapien.