Civil War What Team Are You On NOW?!?

[Leenie]

This is what I said in the Iron Man post:

When it comes to the ideological conflict, I'm honestly on "Team Happy Middle Ground." Both sides had great points and bad points. I believe that the superheroes SHOULD be kept in check on some level (if cops and gun owners have to answer to the law if some mishap takes place, then it's only fair and logical that superheroes undergo the same equal rules as well) ... But given my personal beliefs about government in general, the government (as always) would find SOME way to screw it up royally for everyone, making the superheroes less than useful. The conflict in this movie really reminds me of the "Patriot Act" references in The Dark Knight, in a very good way. Both sides are represented with their pros and cons. It's very well-done.

HOWEVER, based on the behaviors of the two main characters, I am wholeheartedly on Team Iron Man. Cap ticked me off BIG TIME during the final act of the movie. Cap is a hypocrite. At least Tony admitted his faults at the end.

"I don't trust people who don't have a dark side" is what Tony said to Cap in AoU. DAMN STRAIGHT, TONY.

 

[Pokkle]

Which would then dictate what conflicts they can and can't intervene in.

Say if there was a maniac holding 300 kids hostage in a hospital, under the Accords, the Avengers wouldn't be able to get involved unless the UN gave them the okay...assuming they would. They could very well say no and the Avengers wouldn't be allowed to do a thing.

That's what Cap is talking about. Although the intentions of the Sokovia Accords seem noble, it'd only be a matter of time before the politics got involved and you'll have members of the UN having them carrying out missions for their own personal reasons.

The same goes for the police and the military.

I think you can change better the system from within.
I think they should have at least try.

Anyways, both sides had rights and wrongs for me.

 

[Nathan]

The same goes for the police and the military.

I think you can change better the system from within.
I think they should have at least try.

Anyways, both sides had rights and wrongs for me.

The problem really was the current situation. Steve literally had no choice. They were already giving a shoot on sight order. Even if Cap had signed, then asked for permission to bring in Barnes personally, they'd would have probably said no, because they weren't planning to take him in alive in the first place. And even when he was going to give the accords a chance, Tony had to be a *****e and tell Steve he basically detained Wanda.

 

[Pokkle]

But in the end of this first attack,

Spoiler

Bucky was taken alive by the cops and War Machine.
Then after Zemo mind manipulation, Cap had Bucky captured, if he had delivered Bucky and sign.

Maybe, he could have gain the trust and authorization to go find Zemo.
And maybe not.

 

[AlluAllu]

HOWEVER, based on the behaviors of the two main characters, I am wholeheartedly on Team Iron Man. Cap ticked me off BIG TIME during the final act of the movie. Cap is a hypocrite. At least Tony admitted his faults at the end.

Could you elaborate? Only wrong doing by Cap in the final act that I can think of is keeping the secret from Tony. But Steve did admit that he was wrong there.

 

[ScarlettW]

But in the end of this first attack,

Spoiler

Bucky was taken alive by the cops and War Machine.
Then after Zemo mind manipulation, Cap had Bucky captured, if he had delivered Bucky and sign.

Maybe, he could have gain the trust and authorization to go find Zemo.
And maybe not.

Spoiler

Sharon said the order was to kill Bucky. Cap prevented this from happening.
Bucky was taken alive because of Steve.

 

[JMLZ]

Yes, and now that Ironman signed the accords, things like civilian casualties are a thing of the past. There's always a chance for the unfortunate death of civilians. Them having to listen to the UN now, doesn't change that. If anything, it could increase the loss of lives, because the UN tells the Avengers not to interfere. Or worse, have the same crazy ass plan as the Council, and decide to drop a nuke instead, which I could see them try against Thanos. Potentially killing millions of innocents in the process.

Like Steve said, the accords change nothing. They only shift the blame. Had Cap listened to his superiors in the first Movie, all the soldiers in the Hydra Prison Camp would have probably been killed.

The Avengers entered other people's countries to save lives but ended up inadvertantly costing some too. The nations want the Avengers to get permission first before acting.

The Accords force them to get permission from the people who are responsible for those boarders before they come in and do violence. [BLACKOUT]As evidenced by Zemo and that black kid's mom[/BLACKOUT], it's not just the governments that have a beef with the Avengers's M.O.

Cap's moral high-ground in the comic storyline was easier to see; not so much in this film. There's more room to say he's wrong here.

 

[Tg11]

Team Cap most definitely because Team Iron Man in a sense they are working for the government or in other words what they think is the government but Team Cap they not only truly fight for themselves they fight for each other but also aren't going around forcing ideals

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Team Cap, even more so then before.

 

[Quasimod0]

Team Cap going in, and Team Cap going out. I did flop back and forth though. They both had great points and neither were portrayed as villains. I loved that. But putting heroes who have saved the world into prison is just not okay. These people should be celebrated, not outlawed.

 

[The Chris]

Still team Cap. Though i understood where Team Iron Man was coming from. That prison sickened me though.

 

[Tg11]

Yeah I know right just another reason why people should be all for Team Cap

 

[Leenie]

Could you elaborate? Only wrong doing by Cap in the final act that I can think of is keeping the secret from Tony. But Steve did admit that he was wrong there.

Cap was all about transparency in The Avengers (when confronting Nick Fury) and in The Winter Soldier. Now he expects everyone else in the world to trust him and allow him to do whatever when he himself is lacking transparency and trying to make a lot of excuses for Wanda (I know the beginning of the movie was a tragic accident; I'm referring more to the events of Age of Ultron ... It's hard to erase a past like that).

Plus, Cap was totally motivated by his bromance in the film. I get and agree that Ross is not to be trusted at all, but I found Cap to be so stubborn to the point where there was a lot of violence that could have totally been avoided had he took a second to be more diplomatic. Cap may have believed that Tony was acting irrationally/emotionally at the end when he was trying to kill Bucky, but Cap's only real justification for everything was "but he's my friend." At that moment, *I* wanted to punch Cap in his perfect teeth.

I also found Cap's written apology to be pretty weak. "Yeah, I'm sorry, but hopefully you'll understand someday." That came across to me as "Well, that may have not been the best thing for me to do to your or myself, but I meant well and it was for the greater good, so hopefully we'll be cool." Um, haven't a lot of Team Cap people called out Iron Man for acting on extreme levels in the name of "the greater good"?

(Sorry, couldn't help it, haha)

At least Iron Man admitted that he was in the wrong before the finale. He even tried to undo some damage that he had done (especially in regards to the captured superheroes). And at the end of the movie, Tony totally brushed off Ross after Cap freed the captured heroes (which was awesome).

The one redeeming thing that Cap did in regards to Tony at the end of the movie was him dropping that shield. Tony was 100% correct: Cap no longer deserves that shield after everything that had come to light.

So yeah, this movie made me feel torn about both sides on many levels. Ideologically, I think Cap was more on the right side ... But I'm one of those "the ends don't justify the means" kind of people no matter what the cause is (because that kind of thing ultimately hurts the cause). I still love Cap as a character, but he did piss me off in this movie ... Which I guess is a good thing, because Cap isn't this perfect "Mary Sue/Gary Stu"-like character; he definitely has more depth than that, and he's definitely flawed as showcased in this movie. The characterizations in this movie were fantastic.

 

[Tg11]

Let's just agree to disagree both sides are extremely flawed but at the same time us as fans we are torn between who to support because both sides bring up great points

 

[AlluAllu]

long post

Okay, that's not how I see it, but that was a pretty good reply.

This might be my headcanon, but I'd like to think that Cap is willing to take responsibility if/when he makes mistakes, but only afterwards and without the element of taking orders.

You might be right there that Cap could have ideally resolved some conflicts with diplomacy, but movies like these need their action. Of course that is not an excuse when it comes to plot.

When Steve said "he's my friend", I don't think he was justifying protecting him. I think he was trying to snap Tony out of the murder-mode.

 

[Tg11]

Yeah but at the same time Tony was more or less driven by revenge by rage

 

[Ms. Marvel]

This film is going to divide us all!

#dividedwefall

 

[LostSon88]

Yeah but at the same time Tony was more or less driven by revenge by rage

It didn't become rage until the 3rd act when it was revealed that Bucky killed his parents.

Up until that point, Tony's motivation was, if anything, out of regret.

 

[X-Ray]

Team Cap before, Team Cap after.

 

[AnneFan]

Still Cap. Heroes need to be there when they are needed.

 

[MadVillainy]

I went in Team Cap but left the movie neutral.

 

[Boom]

Team Captain America before, Team Iron Man after.

Only because I think the movie failed to really get into Cap's reasoning in the end. He believes Bucky is a victim, and not responsible for his actions. Considering WS was brainwashed, it's not an entirely unreasonable argument. But they really framed that final sequence as Cap defending Bucky because they're friends. It didn't exactly shine a good light on him.

 

[Mike5575]

I started out Team Cap, but now I just don't know. Where does Tony stand right now? He clearly thought that the Raft was a harsh place for these heroes to be kept.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Team Captain America before, Team Iron Man after.

Only because I think the movie failed to really get into Cap's reasoning in the end. He believes Bucky is a victim, and not responsible for his actions. Considering WS was brainwashed, it's not an entirely unreasonable argument. But they really framed that final sequence as Cap defending Bucky because they're friends. It didn't exactly shine a good light on him.

Well he did quite clearly say "it wasn't him, it was HYDRA" when trying to get Tony to stop and he also said "this won't change what happened". Both reasonable arguments which didn't change Tony's mindset. The final thing Cap went with was "he's my friend" which still changed nothing.

Personally I understand where Tony was coming from as it's a traumatic thing to have to witness. But imo the only thing Cap genuinely did wrong (in regard to the Bucky situation) was not tell Tony that his parents' death was not an accident.

 

[ciscostudent561]

TeamThor here

MY issue is this
Why does Stark get a free pass for creating Ultron? I don't care what your intentions are, if you work on a project, without restraints and tons of people die for it- its on your neck. Seriously, I remember watching AOU and shaking my head in disgust at the creation of Ultron.
Why does Wanda get a free pass for helping Ultron? She switched sides, but she is not Winter Soldier. Her crimes are war crimes, just like Stark's and she should pay the price.

Good intentions mean nothing when the method to bring out the desired result far out weigh the balance.

For instance, say, you have a child. You want to discipline them. Using Prisoner of War torture tactics would be horrendously evil. Also the creation of Ultron was not a super hero thing. Stark and Banner created that monster with their mind. It was the equivalent of that committee sending a nuke to NYC. Sure, you solve the immediate problem, but you've created a bigger.