What Welfare Mentality Causes

[Pink Ranger]

It depends.

People don't save food stamps. Those go right back into the economy.

Poor people in general are more likely to spend every dime they get on a variety of goods and services which in turn supports the economy.

Food stamps requires someone to administer them. A government department full of someones, actually. With at least one senior manager, who makes senior management level salary. All just to recycle money from the taxpayer to the end user who needs it. That funding to support the program is basically money that vanishes from the economy, because there was no real purpose to it.

Now I am not saying food stamps is a bad program, but wouldn't it be better if we cut back on a few government programs, so everyone has a little bit more money to blow, and maybe there is an increase in people eating at restaurants, so restaurants have to hire more people, or the people working there get more shifts and hours, so fewer and fewer people have to use food stamps in the first place?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The thing is some people do have a job and still need food stamps.

Most people who get food stamps work within a month of recieving food stamps.

But they get a tiny salary for working and need help to survive.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Most people who get food stamps work within a month of recieving food stamps.

As I've said before, that is why I believe in a social safety net. Maybe it doesn't have to be overly generous, but it has to be there. All of us benefit from having it there, even if we never need to use it.

The thing is some people do have a job and still need food stamps.

..........................

But they get a tiny salary for working and need help to survive.

That is problematic. Food stamps in those scenarios tends to act as a de facto version of guaranteed minimum income, which is an idea often touted by the democratic socialists and social democrats.

The problem is, ironically, is that it ends up acting as a form of corporate welfare, essentially subsidizing businesses to pay their employees less. While I am pro-business, I am also against unnecessary market distortions and unnecessary false economies, which these programs create. I actually boycott McDonalds and Tim Hortons (a bigger deal in Canada than the USA) personally because they take advantage of the market-distorting temporary foreign worker program.

 

[The Overlord]

Actually, when the left succeeds poor families stay poor, because money disappears from the economy and ends up funding nepotism-fueled government jobs or corrupt non-profits.

The entire choice between left and right is basically choosing which team of white heterosexual men get to call the shots. But at least with capitalism, the velocity of money is high enough that at least the poor get a chance to better themselves.

No offense, but its a bit naive to assume that corporations are any more trust worthy then governments. Millionaires who store their money in tax havens in the Cook Islands are not contributing much to the economy either.

Frankly I am clever enough not to trust corporations or the government completely, especially since it seems like they are in cahoots.

Its also naive to assume there are not a ton of entitled rich people out there, look at the behavior at some of the people at AIG after they got government assistance:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/29/us-aig-nyfed-bailout-idUSBREA0S1P320140129

http://www.forbes.com/sites/igorgreenwald/2013/01/08/suing-the-us-would-kill-aig/

Also some corporations are encouraging the so called welfare mentality people here have been, Walmart pays their employees so little, they end up going on food stamps:

http://www.slate.com/articles/busin...amps_their_wages_aren_t_enough_to_get_by.html

Is this really system is supposed to work? Why can't Walmart pay these people a living wage? Costco can and has. Why does Walmart treat its employees so terribly that they end up food stamps. Is this what the American Dream has become? Where is the tide that is supposed to lift all boats.

This why the Free Market has failed, corporations with toxic corporate cultures and total disregard for their employees succeed. The Free Market rewards bad actors for their bad actions, so they have no incentive to change their ways.

We do not have a meritocracy, we live in a system of crony capitalism and one that puts short term gain above long term consequences. Its broken.

I might agree that regulations should be lifted on corporations should be lifted, if I have not seen so many corporations act in an irresponsible manner. If so many corporations have the morality of a child (only thinking of themselves and no one else) then I think they should treated as much. When more corporations start acting like responsible adults, then I would more sympathetic to their arguments.

Don't get me wrong, I do think there are some responsible corporate citizens out there, but there are far to many bad apples spoiling everything for everyone else.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Is this really system is supposed to work? Why can't Walmart pay these people a living wage? Costco can and has. Why does Walmart treat its employees so terribly that they end up food stamps. Is this what the American Dream has become? Where is the tide that is supposed to lift all boats.

This why the Free Market has failed, corporations with toxic corporate cultures and total disregard for their employees succeed. The Free Market rewards bad actors for their bad actions, so they have no incentive to change their ways.

Great example. Wal Mart hasn't been doing great lately, from a corporate standpoint, and Costco has been doing better. It can be for a variety of reasons, but I bet you dollars to donuts Costco spends less on employee training and acquisition, because of they have a higher employee retention rate from their generally better working conditions.

Perfect example of how free market dynamics work. Human resource management is one of the last major bastions of competitive force out there, and those companies that abuse their workers and have a high turnover rate suffer for it.

Which is why I am also against many market distorting forces that benefit business, such as Temporary Foreign Workers (not sure if you have a similar thing in the USA) and employing illegal immigrants.

 

[The Overlord]

Great example. Wal Mart hasn't been doing great lately, from a corporate standpoint, and Costco has been doing better. It can be for a variety of reasons, but I bet you dollars to donuts Costco spends less on employee training and acquisition, because of they have a higher employee retention rate from their generally better working conditions.

Perfect example of how free market dynamics work. Human resource management is one of the last major bastions of competitive force out there, and those companies that abuse their workers and have a high turnover rate suffer for it.

Which is why I am also against many market distorting forces that benefit business, such as Temporary Foreign Workers (not sure if you have a similar thing in the USA) and employing illegal immigrants.

Sure, but the problem is Walmart is still making more money then Costco, despite the fact that Costco is a better company then Walmart. It really comes off as Walmart being rewarded for its bad behavior and thus having no reason to change. That seems like a failure of the Free Market, that companies with a corporate culture as toxic as Walmart succeed.

No one would be clamoring for a higher minimum wage, if companies like Walmart choose to pay its workers a living wage and there is no reason why they can't, if Costco can do it, so could Walmart. Heck Walmart paying their workers more would a huge boon to the economy. Maybe then, Walmart wouldn't seem like giant parasite.

I suppose something like Walmart succeeds because it taps people's greed, so save a few bucks by going to Walmart to buy some cheap crap don't need, bankrupting all the local stores and having people live subsistence wages. No wonder I am a cynic, people reward Walmart for its irresponsible attitude, just to save some money on some cheap crap.

Oh man, people in South Korea and Germany are way more intelligent then we are, they choose not to shop at Walmart and it ended up leaving those countries.

Again there would far less need for government regulation if more corporations acted liked responsible citizens, but then we wouldn't have the system we have, would we? Its sacked deck. There is no Free Market, its just a crony capitalist system we have now.

 

[chaseter]

I am a pro-business economic conservative as well, but some of what you're saying is needlessly inflammatory. Someone on welfare is already "allowed" to buy porn, there is no law against an adult doing that, and if there was the enforcement of it would be an unreasonable cost burden.

The person on welfare who misspends their money suffers by their own hand, because that money could have been used for something more important. And allowing people to suffer from their own actions is the basis of capitalism, in my view.

I agree that welfare sucks, and is a market distortion, but it is a necessary one. We just have to continually make sure it does not go too far (i.e. Europe). The consequences of having no social safety net would be dire for everyone, especially the middle class.

It's not inflammatory, it's the absolute truth. Sometimes the truth sucks. People on welfare can go to casinos and titty bars. They already do. No not in huge numbers but it happens (before someone starts that pointless tangent). Liquor stores take EBT cards for Christ's sake. There is waste in the system just like every system. I just find it shocking that someone comes on here and brandishes the fact that they bought booze on the tax payer's dime because they thought they paid into the system that they didn't actually pay into. That is the welfare mentality right there. It's ironic that they posted in this thread with that thread title looming over their post.

The person on welfare that misspends their money suffers by their own hand. Yes. I agree. But, that keeps them in poverty and they never escape because of their own bad choices. There is a reason why the lottery is called the poor tax or why the impoverished buy more cigarettes than any other income bracket. There is a reason why the movie Idiocy exists. Those people tend to keep needing tax payer assistance. It's the poverty cycle 101. Not only is there an income gap, there is an education gap. Condoms, fast food, soda pop, candy, cigarettes, scratch offs, etc. etc...these are things that someone who makes 100k and someone who makes 20k will have differing thoughts on. It's all in one's choices and unfortunately those with lesser sights on the future make more bad choices. It all stems on education. I can't remember but I had a post about free education for those on welfare to help them make better/healthier choices for their family and themselves. That isn't really currently happening and it's affecting kid's lives. A mother of 3 on welfare shouldn't be allowed to buy coca cola and frozen pizza. Sorry...or alcohol or cigarettes to tie this all together.

Poverty sucks and I am all for helping our fellow man. We can't let children die on the streets. About 1/3 of my paycheck goes to federal and local taxes every 2 weeks. That is a lot. I don't live lavishly at all but I damn well could with that much money getting zapped away. We have to help those that need help but we have to do it within reason. So many things need reformed in this country and welfare is one of them. While it probably shouldn't be at the top of the list in terms of immediacy, it needs to occur at some point. Until then, we will keep getting people buying booze because they are depressed and an angry lady yelling OBAMA PHONE on youtube.

 

[The Overlord]

It's not inflammatory, it's the absolute truth. Sometimes the truth sucks. People on welfare can go to casinos and titty bars. They already do. No not in huge numbers but it happens (before someone starts that pointless tangent). Liquor stores take EBT cards for Christ's sake. There is waste in the system just like every system. I just find it shocking that someone comes on here and brandishes the fact that they bought booze on the tax payer's dime because they thought they paid into the system that they didn't actually pay into. That is the welfare mentality right there. It's ironic that they posted in this thread with that thread title looming over their post.

The person on welfare that misspends their money suffers by their own hand. Yes. I agree. But, that keeps them in poverty and they never escape because of their own bad choices. There is a reason why the lottery is called the poor tax or why the impoverished buy more cigarettes than any other income bracket. There is a reason why the movie Idiocy exists. Those people tend to keep needing tax payer assistance. It's the poverty cycle 101. Not only is there an income gap, there is an education gap. Condoms, fast food, soda pop, candy, cigarettes, scratch offs, etc. etc...these are things that someone who makes 100k and someone who makes 20k will have differing thoughts on. It's all in one's choices and unfortunately those with lesser sights on the future make more bad choices. It all stems on education. I can't remember but I had a post about free education for those on welfare to help them make better/healthier choices for their family and themselves. That isn't really currently happening and it's affecting kid's lives. A mother of 3 on welfare shouldn't be allowed to buy coca cola and frozen pizza. Sorry...or alcohol or cigarettes to tie this all together.

Poverty sucks and I am all for helping our fellow man. We can't let children die on the streets. About 1/3 of my paycheck goes to federal and local taxes every 2 weeks. That is a lot. I don't live lavishly at all but I damn well could with that much money getting zapped away. We have to help those that need help but we have to do it within reason. So many things need reformed in this country and welfare is one of them. While it probably shouldn't be at the top of the list in terms of immediacy, it needs to occur at some point. Until then, we will keep getting people buying booze because they are depressed and an angry lady yelling OBAMA PHONE on youtube.

But if you lost your job and were searching for another, would you suddenly become a robot, lose any interest in anything fun and most dedicate your life to sleep and finding a new job? Honestly, would you do that?

You would never spend money on a movie or a beer or even a cup coffee? If you were single, would you never go on a date again? I think moviedoor buying an occasional drink now and again doesn't he is pissing away his entire EI check on booze, does it?

You are trying to change the human nature of people just because they are on welfare or EI, that is doomed to failure and your moral outrage won't change that.

Instead of thinking of ways to welfare and EI recipients as miserable as possible, why not come up with real solutions? Why are so people unemployed, does welfare and EI provide training, does it provide networking opportunities? Do they have access to job development programs and counseling?

You said unemployment is a different issue then welfare, but they are linked, you cannot address welfare without talking about unemployment.

It might cost some money to do these things, but if they get more people off welfare quickly, would it not be worth it?

You could say life is unfair because your tax dollars go to social programs you don't believe in? Okay, but a lot of people don't believe in drone strikes or the various wars the US has gotten into over the years and the money the US government gives to dictatorships to get favors from them? Isn't unfair they have to pay for things they don't believe in, heck with Quakers you can argue the government is violating their religion. The idea of "I only want my money to go to only things I believe in" is not feasible and life is not always fair.

 

[Schlosser85]

A mother of 3 on welfare shouldn't be allowed to buy coca cola and frozen pizza.

Frozen pizza? What's the difference between her buying pizza or any other kind of food?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It's not inflammatory, it's the absolute truth. Sometimes the truth sucks. People on welfare can go to casinos and titty bars. They already do. No not in huge numbers but it happens (before someone starts that pointless tangent). Liquor stores take EBT cards for Christ's sake. There is waste in the system just like every system. I just find it shocking that someone comes on here and brandishes the fact that they bought booze on the tax payer's dime because they thought they paid into the system that they didn't actually pay into. That is the welfare mentality right there. It's ironic that they posted in this thread with that thread title looming over their post.

The person on welfare that misspends their money suffers by their own hand. Yes. I agree. But, that keeps them in poverty and they never escape because of their own bad choices. There is a reason why the lottery is called the poor tax or why the impoverished buy more cigarettes than any other income bracket. There is a reason why the movie Idiocy exists. Those people tend to keep needing tax payer assistance. It's the poverty cycle 101. Not only is there an income gap, there is an education gap. Condoms, fast food, soda pop, candy, cigarettes, scratch offs, etc. etc...these are things that someone who makes 100k and someone who makes 20k will have differing thoughts on. It's all in one's choices and unfortunately those with lesser sights on the future make more bad choices. It all stems on education. I can't remember but I had a post about free education for those on welfare to help them make better/healthier choices for their family and themselves. That isn't really currently happening and it's affecting kid's lives. A mother of 3 on welfare shouldn't be allowed to buy coca cola and frozen pizza. Sorry...or alcohol or cigarettes to tie this all together.

Poverty sucks and I am all for helping our fellow man. We can't let children die on the streets. About 1/3 of my paycheck goes to federal and local taxes every 2 weeks. That is a lot. I don't live lavishly at all but I damn well could with that much money getting zapped away. We have to help those that need help but we have to do it within reason. So many things need reformed in this country and welfare is one of them. While it probably shouldn't be at the top of the list in terms of immediacy, it needs to occur at some point. Until then, we will keep getting people buying booze because they are depressed and an angry lady yelling OBAMA PHONE on youtube.

Again, one-third of your paycheck doesn't go to welfare let alone welfare abusers.

 

[roach]

Frozen pizza? What's the difference between her buying pizza or any other kind of food?

because only the rich deserve frozen pizza.

 

[chaseter]

Again, one-third of your paycheck doesn't go to welfare let alone welfare abusers.

No one said it does...

 

[SV Fan]

because only the rich deserve frozen pizza.

Sort of reminds me of the Jon Stewart bit where he found Fox news attacking people buying almost any kind of food with food stamps

 

[chaseter]

Frozen pizza? What's the difference between her buying pizza or any other kind of food?

Because it's not healthy. That would be the difference. If taxes are supporting people then they need help making better choices for themselves and their kids.

 

[chaseter]

Sort of reminds me of the Jon Stewart bit where he found Fox news attacking people buying almost any kind of food with food stamps

No not really.

Glad to see you all care so much about the impoverished's health and well being that you want them all to feed their kids frozen pizza, McDonalds, and sugary soda.

 

[Schlosser85]

I don't really. I just think you're being extremely nitpicky.

 

[chaseter]

When kids' well being and my money are involved, please excuse my nitpickyness. My compassion stems from creating a better future while some of yours stems from creating an easier present.

 

[The Overlord]

Because it's not healthy. That would be the difference. If taxes are supporting people then they need help making better choices for themselves and their kids.

No offense, but it seems like you are trying to regulate every aspect of these people's lives, because "a third of my pay check is going to taxes and some of that is going to welfare."

How do you know how much of your third of a pay check is going to welfare vs. going to other things?

Does anyone who doesn't like the way the military spends money, have the right to regulate the military?

No one here is suggesting anyone on welfare should buy a new car or an X-Box, but I think saying they are not allowed to have any fun what so ever, is not realistic.

 

[chaseter]

Yes we have the right to regulate what the military spends money on...the left do it everyday.

 

[Feenix]

Because it's not healthy. That would be the difference. If taxes are supporting people then they need help making better choices for themselves and their kids.

I don't think any of us need to spell it out for you, but it's no secret that healthier foods cost more than unhealthy foods. You may judge a mother based on what she feeds her kids, but it comes down to being able to feed them for an entire day vs. feeding them for one meal only.

 

[Evelisse]

only children of working parents and the wealthy should be given the option to purchase and consume frozen pizza, McDonalds, and sugary soda?

 

[The Overlord]

Yes we have the right to regulate what the military spends money on...the left do it everyday.

Really so I didn't agree with the Iraq War, I could prevent my money from going there? News to me.

What about the 12 billion dollars the government just lost in Iraq, not spent, lost. When is the tax payer getting a refund on that?

No offense, but you are invoking a stereotype of a left winger, that they never met a government program they didn't like and are okay with any kind of government spending, with no oversight.

That simply not the truth, government corruption and misspending is a social ill that almost everyone opposes, the difference is left wingers think its too simplistic to say, the government is always bad, just shrink the size of government and everything instantly gets better. It is a far too simple catch all solution.

 

[chaseter]

only children of working parents and the wealthy should be given the option to purchase and consume frozen pizza, McDonalds, and sugary soda?

Feed your kids nothing but McDonalds and pizza.

 

[Feenix]

Feed your kids nothing but McDonalds and pizza.

Right, because that's all they feed their kids. You know this how? You saw it once?

Come on man, you're just grasping at straws here.

 

[chaseter]

Really so I didn't agree with the Iraq War, I could prevent my money from going there? News to me.

What about the 12 billion dollars the government just lost in Iraq, not spent, lost. When is the tax payer getting a refund on that?

No offense, but you are invoking a stereotype of a left winger, that they never met a government program they didn't like and are okay with any kind of government spending, with no oversight.

That simply not the truth, government corruption and misspending is a social ill that almost everyone opposes, the difference is left wingers think its too simplistic to say, the government is always bad, just shrink the size of government and everything instantly gets better. It is a far too simple catch all solution.

Tangent? Because we can't regulate everything we shouldn't care about anything?