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Discussion in 'Rogue One: A Star Wars Story' started by Spider-Who?, Dec 17, 2016.
I wanted to know more about Saw and his extremist rebels. IT definitely piqued my interest.
Darth Vader fighting the rebels himself at the end while exciting to look at was off and out of tone with what we see in ep 4.
What Lucas established with the OT in terms of jedi knights and the force and particularly how vader and obi wan behave kinda puts rogue one in an awkward position.
By this point in the chronology Vader and Obi-wan are old men. Thats why the the initial fight between vader and kenobi is so staid in comparison to their younger selves because at this point they're old men plus vader is mostly cyborg and has limited mobility.
And back in 1977 Lucas's idea of lightsaber fights was akin to broad sword fighting like the old english knights did. Thats why we see Luke wield his lightsaber like Excalibur.
Mind you the events of rogue one take place in the same week if not day as ANH...and we see vader do two thing thats uncharacteristic of the vader in the OT.
1. Attack foot soldiers himself. Again what he did looked exciting but it was beneath him. Thats what stormtroopers are for.
2. His fighting was very dynamic. Broad moves and wielding his sabre with one hand while force pushing with the other.
If Vader had acted like that in ANH he'd kill Obi wan in 3 moves. So if they wanted to have true continuity with the OT vader shouldn't have done those things.
Also this point in the chronology the force is a myth. But therein lies the other issue the OT establishes thats kinda awkward for Rogue One to cover.
Theres only about 20 years between ep 3 and ep 4...Luke and Leia are around 19 when we first encounter then in ANH. Theyre teenagers. In their life up to that point the Force is a myth to them.
Luke is all "the Force? yeah right" and Leia has more pressing real world issues to deal with so she never really acknowledges its existence in ep 4 and in Empire only when Luke literally calls to her using it. But other than that never really acknowledged it afterward. (she's a force sensitive who seems to have no use for it).
And literally everyone else in the galaxy seems to be non plussed about the legend of Jedi Knights and the Force so much so that Obi Wan can cut a guys arm off in a bar with a light sabre and it barely raises an eyebrow and an officer can get snide with Vader directly about his "religion" while Grand Moff Tarkin treats Vader like his top henchman rather than some ultra badass you best tread lightly around.
The officers in that room don't seem to be particularly fearful of Vader. In Rogue One everyone seemed a little too afraid of Vader.
I liken it to a Godzilla movies made since Godzilla vs. Biollante: everything is simply going to look better. I have to admit watching Alec Guiness spin around makes me laugh. The way the poor guy moves, I'm surprised Vader didn't cut him down in three moves, anyway. That aside, I felt the way Vader fought in Rogue One was consistent enough with his familiar one-handed style, and I always figured his cybernetics could have been upgraded over the years, plus he enjoyed those nice chemical immersion baths to freshen up.
Because they aren't. In 1977, Vader wasn't the lead singer in the band. This is due to differences intrinsic to George's earlier visions of Star Wars, between what arrived on screen and what was changed from his earlier drafts for a movie called The Starkiller. In those days, Darth Vader was more the badass villain you didn't mess with, not the supernaturally charged overlord he's now recognized as. Vader is clearly beneath Tarkin in the first movie, which is now called A New Hope.
yeah but rogue one and a new hope take place at the same time. no time for upgrades
I meant over the years. As for R1>ANH, again, I think it boils down mainly to the choreography circa 1977. You can't make these movies so many years later without at least a few anachronisms as a result.
that was more like fanservice than anything else...they calculated that the fans would feel gypped if they had vader in the flick and didn't do anything with him..
Re: Vader's abilities
I read a good theory / explanation online that the healing tank / tube Vader was originally in, meant that he emerged at full health and strength, but then over the course of Rogue One, that health and strength was depleted, leaving him at New Hope levels (presumably because he didn't have time for another period of hibernation in the healing tank / tube).
More Vader of course.
Better CGI on those two certain characters 25 years from now in the Special Edition, lol.
Definitely more Vader..but what do you expect from the guy who gave use Godzilla…? He seems to get off on teasing the audience with the characters they come to the movie to see the most.
Vader could have easily been in some of the scenes with Tarkin.
The fight between Vader and Obi Wan in ANH could be explained in that both were not only dueling with their Sabres, but also using the force to push each other back, thus slowing each others movements down. There would have been this push and pull against each other during their fight, which would explain why they were so slow dueling against each other, yet why Vader was so fast against the Rebel Troopers in the hallway, who didn't have the force to push back against Vader's attack.
IMO prequel MOVIES and later MOVIES..HAVE TO MATCH UP WITH THAT STUFF. Which means vader is an old man who is mostly cyborg which means he has limited mobility even tho he's still strong in the force. He's not hopping around wielding his light sabre in that suit like a french duelist. And he only uses his weapon on worthy opponents not foot soldiers. Hence the ONLY time we even see him draw his light sabre is on other force sensitives.
Thats why that scene in the end doesn't match up with A New Hope. Vader does NOT engage foot soldiers in combat no matter what the issue and by your own admission he ONLY joined the yavin fight because he sensed a force sensitive.
So while that scene of him cutting through rebel soldiers was exciting..it was NOT QUITE RIGHT!
This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but Vader's scene left me a bit cold. Sure, it was cool to see, but ultimately it's just Vader needlessly killing a bunch of rebels without characterization trying to hand some plans we know they're going to deliver.
I'd liked a scene where Vader is put against our main characters, perhaps even being the cause of their deaths.
Cast someone other than Jones. She was just...just awful.
And the character work throughout the film was paper thin, even for an ensemble film.
I would have included the traditional Star Wars title sequence and then got to the Rouge 1 part quicker. That would probably mean cutting like an hour from the movie (Because we already have that backstory in the title sequence) and focusing more on these characters and making the ending having more of an impact, emotionally. There was a good movie in there, but it was bogged down by lack of character development.
Main improvements I would have liked to see:
-Less location jumping early on to focus on the characters, which leads me to my next improvement.
-Deeper backstories to better show the personalities and reasons for each character showing up.
-Either more Saw Garerra interaction with Jyn or just dropping it entirely.
-Not have done such tight, lingering shots using the deaged Leia and resurrected Tarkin.
Vader's fighting is anachronistic, but I think there's things that have to be. It's not the 70's anymore, and even if the movie is calling back to those days, you're still making a movie for audiences now.
Vader was a huge hyped up thing for this film. Everyone wanted Vader to come in and be this cool bad because he's Darth Vader. I'm not saying he should be doing flips and ****, but you gotta admit, having Vader come out and fight really clumsily and slowly like he did in ANH would've severely undercut the entire point of the scene. His fighting is close enough, it serves the story purpose, and it looks cool.
It just seems like nitpicking.
-They didn't as much with the morally grey rebel stuff as they could have. They set it all up with Saw and Cassian, I just wanted more focus on it towards the second or third act with regards to Jyn's choices ("What will you become?"), and what she'll have to do in the name of the greater good.
-Since this movie is the first look into a more morally grey world, perhaps it would have been more appropriate to have more main imperial characters, and some rebel villains, though I guess this could be done in another film.
-Either have Vader in just the one scene (and not advertised), or have more of him throughout, Vader's last cinematic hurrah. I also agree that his fighting style was too quick in comparison to ANH. He can be just a terrifying and ruthless by being slow.
I don't get the Vader fuss, the whole film is a vast departure from the main episodic series in a more plausible depiction. Everything from how the rebels act, actual tactics being employed by both sides, grey morality, etc. make Rogue One look like its on a different tier than the episodic films, similar in a way to how the episodic films are on a more mature tier than the CGI series. Rogue One is a more mature and plausible tier of Star Wars. Even after I watched the film, I can remember thinking this makes the regular films look more like the pulpy movie serials that inspired Star Wars. In many ways it is like comparing the different versions of Battlestar Galactica. One is full of pulpy goodness, while the other is a more brutal and mature depiction.
Overall, I don't have a problem with the differences between ANH and Rogue One. I see one as an old school movie serial dramatization and the other a gritty realistic take on the events of the Galactic Civil War.
For both of you....I would agree that its a nitpick (hey I thought it was badass myself) BUT because that story literally leads directly into the OT theres some responsibility to adhere to the continuity, actions and behaviors of the characters in that movie. For that reason I see the actions of vader and the appearance of the DS as more fanservice than integral to the story.
how about this scenario:
The data makes it up to the blockade ship and a fierce fire fight ensues between stormtroopers and rebel soldiers as they frantically try to pass the plans along to get it off world. Rebel soldiers get shot down quickly one by one by the better trained troopers but at the last second the plans is handed off and the blockade runner immediately disembarks and escapes. Then we see an officer report to vader that the rebels have escaped and he orders an intercept course.
Now that's more consistent with the opening of episode 4 but the writers made the calculation that the fans would feel gypped if they didn't do something more with darth vader than a force choke and a pun.
In that regard R1 isn't really a standalone story so much as prequel story with a focus on other characters rather than the skywalkers.
Do more with Saw. He ended up as more of a plot device than a character.
Start with the crawl so that we know right away who Galen and Krennic are and what the opening scene is about.
1. Make the stormtroopers of all ranks Naked. Their armor is useless anyways as they'd die from a stray fart hitting them
2. The Music (OMG THE MUSIC). Less of it and more moments of silence, allowing the actors and dialogue to carry the moment. I don't and didn't need music playing all the time to instruct me how I should be feeling.
3. As other's have said, less characters and more development. The movie ended and I didn't give a **** about any of the characters and wasn't bothered that anyone died from the rebellion.
4. Make the damn Empire pilot use those goggles or otherwise, take them off!
5. More Ewoks
6. The force isn't something that you enable within yourself by chanting a mantra over and over again. You either have it or you don't.
7. Fire the director and writers
Noticed it even more the second time I saw it (and just noticed again from the deleted scene shots released http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/lei...lus-more-rogue-one-delete-scenes-revealed-555) ... but the rebel troopers wearing traditional WW2 style helmets. Sorry, just want my war stories from a galaxy far far away to look a little more like they are far far away.
Make a better story where Im not bored off my rocker the first hour. I have never repeatedly checked my watch in a starwars film until now.
Off the top of my head, there's a couple scenes I would modify slightly:
1) When K2SO arrives, he just introduces himself to the audience: "I am a reprogrammed Imperial droid." Instead, I picture Jyn striking up a conversation with him, making note of his make & model (because naturally, she knows her droids), and as K2 confirms each observation, THEN she notes that he's an Imperial droid. "Was," he corrects her. "I was reprogrammed."
2) I know it's an action movie cliche at this point, but I felt like Jyn and Krennic should have had a short fistfight on top of the tower, THEN he holds her at gunpoint and is like "Who ARE you?!"
Make a better, far better, score. Music was utterly forgettable in this movie.
What's weird is that I listened to it the other day on Spotify, and it's not bad just listening to it. Some good stuff. But I agree with you, within the movie, it's forgettable and not as dramatic as Williams... or at least not queued at proper times.