The Last Jedi What would you have done differently?

[MaceB]

Ehh, I'm sure that they're aware just how valuable the Star Wars property is, and they should be afraid of that property getting slowly devalued over time. They didn't spend billions of dollars for the quick cash-in... they want long, ongoing, dependable returns.

I hope they take every film as an opportunity to learn, and I'm sure that they are very nervous about how they can keep their fans (customer base) over the long term. The difference is that I have trust in Disney. The worst thing they could do is over-correct after every film like WB has been doing with the DCU. Don't breed an aura of desperation just because some fans are putting up a big stink. The Star Wars series can easily survive TLJ... but there is some patchwork to do, definitely. A small leak can sink a big boat.

 

[danoyse]

I don't think they went to many new places. There are lots of plot beats and even scenes taken from the old films. While they did a radical change of Luke we still have Rey who's pretty much like OT Luke, just with less of a character arc and struggle. It's just a switch to the new model.

When we met Rey, she was a lone orphan scavenging discarded starships for scraps of food and water.

When we met Luke, he was an orphan with an adopted family, complaining about not being able to hang out at a gas station, and playing with a toy spaceship while not doing his chores.

Who strugged more again?

 

[DerekLake]

When we met Rey, she was a lone orphan scavenging discarded starships for scraps of food and water.

When we met Luke, he was an orphan with an adopted family, complaining about not being able to hang out at a gas station, and playing with a toy spaceship while not doing his chores.

Who strugged more again?

Luke. Rey didn’t struggle to become a hero. Luke did. Luke had to learn pretty much everything, except how to fly a ship and target relatively small objects with large weapons. Rey was already a fighter, already a mechanic, and she quickly learned to be an ace pilot, a perfect shot, and a master of every Force ability it took Luke years and months to learn. At the same time, Luke had to develop from an impulsive, passionate, small-minded and doubtful kid to a confident, calm, trusting and patient warrior. Rey came prepackaged with those qualities. And while Luke had to earn the trust and respect of his comrades, Rey was instantly well-liked and admired by pretty much everyone she encountered, including Kylo Ren.

So, yes, Luke struggled and developed more.

 

[Mjölnir]

When we met Rey, she was a lone orphan scavenging discarded starships for scraps of food and water.

When we met Luke, he was an orphan with an adopted family, complaining about not being able to hang out at a gas station, and playing with a toy spaceship while not doing his chores.

Who strugged more again?

Luke, just like I said.

His journey to becoming a force user and Jedi knight took time, where he still struggled to use "move object" in the second film, he made bad decisions and lost badly to his antagonist when they met, etc. While always having a 100% heroic heart he has a real hero's journey with character development.

Rey instantly overpowers a dark lord in the force, learns force powers on her own, beats her antagonist in a duel and Snoke's elite guard, beats Jedi Master Luke in a scuffle, etc. All within a few days of leaving her home planet. That's not a journey, let alone one that has more struggle than Luke's.

The icing on that cake is that Rey is also a better pilot, gunner and mechanic than Luke.

 

[danoyse]

Luke. Rey didn’t struggle to become a hero. Luke did. Luke had to learn pretty much everything, except how to fly a ship and target relatively small objects with large weapons. Rey was already a fighter, already a mechanic, and she quickly learned to be an ace pilot, a perfect shot, and a master of every Force ability it took Luke years and months to learn. At the same time, Luke had to develop from an impulsive, passionate, small-minded and doubtful kid to a confident, calm, trusting and patient warrior. Rey came prepackaged with those qualities. And while Luke had to earn the trust and respect of his comrades, Rey was instantly well-liked and admired by pretty much everyone she encountered, including Kylo Ren.

So, yes, Luke struggled and developed more.

Rey absolutely struggled to become a hero. Yes, she's talented. So talented, in fact, that she could have - and should have - left Jakku and made her own way years ago. She didn't, because she was clinging to something that was never going to happen.

Rather than deal with the fact that her family was never coming back for her, she scraped by on that junkyard planet, starving, marking days off on her wall, watching the skies for a ship that was never coming back. She was so damaged by her family's abandonment that none of the talents she had mattered to her. Her family mattered to her more than anything, and she didn't mean a damn to them. And she spent a long time trying to keep herself from admitting that to herself. And I think not finding out, but admitting[/] that your parents tossed you away like garbage comes with just as many struggles as say...finding out Darth Vader is your father. They both present a path to darkness, and both Rey and Luke had choices to make and anger to deal with.

Learning to let all of that go, 'let the past die', as you will...was her struggle. It wasn't about mastering the Force, Jedi spend all of their lives learning that. It was about learning her path.

I think that puts her on par with what Luke went through in the original movies. From the perspective of their childhoods, Luke definitely had the cozier childhood (which was the point I was trying to make in the earlier post). But in learning their paths, they both had difficult struggles to overcome, and not just physical talents like fighting or piloting.

 

[DerekLake]

Rey absolutely struggled to become a hero. Yes, she's talented. So talented, in fact, that she could have - and should have - left Jakku and made her own way years ago. She didn't, because she was clinging to something that was never going to happen.

Rather than deal with the fact that her family was never coming back for her, she scraped by on that junkyard planet, starving, marking days off on her wall, watching the skies for a ship that was never coming back. She was so damaged by her family's abandonment that none of the talents she had mattered to her. Her family mattered to her more than anything, and she didn't mean a damn to them. And she spent a long time trying to keep herself from admitting that to herself. And I think not finding out, but admitting[/] that your parents tossed you away like garbage comes with just as many struggles as say...finding out Darth Vader is your father. They both present a path to darkness, and both Rey and Luke had choices to make and anger to deal with.

Learning to let all of that go, 'let the past die', as you will...was her struggle. It wasn't about mastering the Force, Jedi spend all of their lives learning that. It was about learning her path.

I think that puts her on par with what Luke went through in the original movies. From the perspective of their childhoods, Luke definitely had the cozier childhood (which was the point I was trying to make in the earlier post). But in learning their paths, they both had difficult struggles to overcome, and not just physical talents like fighting or piloting.

When Rey is presented with the opportunity to leave Jakku, she takes it. The First Order wasn’t after her, it was after Finn and BB-8. If she was really torn about leaving, she’d have sought to distance herself from them. Instead, she willingly travels across the galaxy, meets Han, sticks by him, goes to Takodana where Maz tells her to look forward to what the Force is calling her to rather than backward to her parents. Rey runs away, gets captured and taken to Starkiller Base. When she gets rescued and returned to D’Qar, she chooses to go to Luke rather than going back to Jakku. In TFA, her actions are partially motivated by her clinging on to her parents’ memory, but by the end, her actions are motivated by a decision to follow the Force.

In TLJ, she spends literally half the film trying to get Luke to train her, because she wants to know her place in the struggle between light and dark. Only halfway through the film does her desire for her parents return, and it only motivates ONE thing she does. Thereafter, she is focused on Ben Solo and trying to redeem him because she believes he is the galaxy’s last hope. Nothing about her parents impacts her decisions, not even Ben Solo’s claim (which, mind you, is basically what Maz already told her). So the idea that this is her struggle doesn’t actually hold up, because it doesn’t actually hold her back in any way, and the revelation (again) that her parents aren’t worth finding out doesn’t enable her in any way to be more of a hero.

This is the test of whether or not that was actually a struggle: if you take those scenes out (her falling into the cave and her conversations about it with Ben), it doesn’t change any of the decisions she makes in this film.

 

[Spider-Fan]

When Rey is presented with the opportunity to leave Jakku, she takes it. The First Order wasn’t after her, it was after Finn and BB-8. If she was really torn about leaving, she’d have sought to distance herself from them. Instead, she willingly travels across the galaxy, meets Han, sticks by him, goes to Takodana where Maz tells her to look forward to what the Force is calling her to rather than backward to her parents. Rey runs away, gets captured and taken to Starkiller Base. When she gets rescued and returned to D’Qar, she chooses to go to Luke rather than going back to Jakku. In TFA, her actions are partially motivated by her clinging on to her parents’ memory, but by the end, her actions are motivated by a decision to follow the Force.

In TLJ, she spends literally half the film trying to get Luke to train her, because she wants to know her place in the struggle between light and dark. Only halfway through the film does her desire for her parents return, and it only motivates ONE thing she does. Thereafter, she is focused on Ben Solo and trying to redeem him because she believes he is the galaxy’s last hope. Nothing about her parents impacts her decisions, not even Ben Solo’s claim (which, mind you, is basically what Maz already told her). So the idea that this is her struggle doesn’t actually hold up, because it doesn’t actually hold her back in any way, and the revelation (again) that her parents aren’t worth finding out doesn’t enable her in any way to be more of a hero.

This is the test of whether or not that was actually a struggle: if you take those scenes out (her falling into the cave and her conversations about it with Ben), it doesn’t change any of the decisions she makes in this film.

Disagree. Kylo even says to Rey she was looking for father figures in other people to substitute for the ones who willingly gave her away, so this was not a new desire. The only thing resolved in TFA is that she realizes she was abandoned on Jakku and no one was coming for her. But, that didn't mean she wasn't going to try and find them or make her own substitute for her own abandonment.

 

[danoyse]

Disagree. Kylo even says to Rey she was looking for father figures in other people to substitute for the ones who willingly gave her away, so this was not a new desire. The only thing resolved in TFA is that she realizes she was abandoned on Jakku and no one was coming for her. But, that didn't mean she wasn't going to try and find them or make her own substitute for her own abandonment.

Agreed. Her anger at Kylo wasn’t just that he’d killed Han Solo, it was that he had what she wanted more than anything and he destroyed it. You can see the anger at her parents coming out during those early conversations with Kylo in TLJ. She kept asking him why. She’d left Jakku, but she hadn’t yet let go of her past.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Agreed. Her anger at Kylo wasn’t just that he’d killed Han Solo, it was that he had what she wanted more than anything and he destroyed it. You can see the anger at her parents coming out during those early conversations with Kylo in TLJ. She kept asking him why. She’d left Jakku, but she hadn’t yet let go of her past.

Exactly. Kylo had what Rey longed for: a loving family, and she was mad because Kylo willingly destroys the very thing she wanted all her life and didn't understand why.

 

[DerekLake]

Disagree. Kylo even says to Rey she was looking for father figures in other people to substitute for the ones who willingly gave her away, so this was not a new desire. The only thing resolved in TFA is that she realizes she was abandoned on Jakku and no one was coming for her. But, that didn't mean she wasn't going to try and find them or make her own substitute for her own abandonment.

First: you are moving the goalpost. Either she’s looking backward to try to find her parents, or she’s looking forward to fill in that hole through Han and Luke (and Leia). But she’s not doing both. The choice Maz sets up is either looking backward or looking forward, which her journey to Luke symbolizes.

Second: Ben Solo’s words in this film mean the same thing that you say Rey realized in TFA: she was abandoned on Jakku and no one is coming for her. That’s all that “your parents are dead junkers who abandoned you” means.

Third: there is no functional difference between Rey seeking someone to teach her the Force/her place and seeking a father figure. How does the story actually demonstrate that? With Han Solo it was clear: Han gives Rey the opportunity to join him as third mate on the Falcon, and she is strongly impacted by his death. With Luke, what she wants is also clear: she wants him to help her “let the Force in.” That’s a different goal. Again, Maz gives Rey the choice of looking forward to the Force, or looking backward to her parents. Sure, seeking a father figure in Han, if true, is basically another form of looking backward, but what would looking forward be? Going to the last Jedi for training and knowledge, right? Unless of course one message of this film is that mentors are bad and true heroes don’t have mentors. But I don’t think that’s what the movie is saying, because Yoda, the embodiment of divine wisdom here, tells Luke to pass on what he has learned to Rey.

This brings up another issue: villains aren’t usually credible messengers, and are generally not the true messengers of the film. Kylo Ren, the guy who killed his own father and has massacred innocents, tells Rey that she is looking for father figures (and that this is a bad thing). Kylo Ren, the fascist leader, tells Rey to let the past die (even as Yoda tells Luke to learn from his past and as Rey holds on to Luke’s Old lightsaber and the Jedi texts). I’d be careful about inferring the true message of the film and the true import of Rey’s “arc” from the villain. The film actually tells us something different. Luke is wrong that the Jedi must die. The Resistance rekindles the spark of the old Rebellion. This story, despite what it seems to say, actually ends with an embrace of the past as a means to chart a better future.

 

[Spider-Fan]

First: you are moving the goalpost. Either she’s looking backward to try to find her parents, or she’s looking forward to fill in that hole through Han and Luke (and Leia). But she’s not doing both. The choice Maz sets up is either looking backward or looking forward, which her journey to Luke symbolizes.

No, it means she is moving beyond Jakku and learning more about herself and her role in the universe, which still can tie into her past. Jakku was the hope that what she lost would return to her, that doesn't mean she is satisfied with the answers about her past. 2 different thing. You're assuming they're the same thing, and that is why it feels like a retread to you.

Second: Ben Solo’s words in this film mean the same thing that you say Rey realized in TFA: she was abandoned on Jakku and no one is coming for her. That’s all that “your parents are dead junkers who abandoned you” means.

No, point A means - you were abandoned. Point B means you were abandoned for no good reason. Completely different. Just being given up can have been for a noble cause. Kylo is saying they didn't love nor care about you.

Third: there is no functional difference between Rey seeking someone to teach her the Force/her place and seeking a father figure. How does the story actually demonstrate that? With Han Solo it was clear: Han gives Rey the opportunity to join him as third mate on the Falcon, and she is strongly impacted by his death. With Luke, what she wants is also clear: she wants him to help her “let the Force in.” That’s a different goal. Again, Maz gives Rey the choice of looking forward to the Force, or looking backward to her parents. Sure, seeking a father figure in Han, if true, is basically another form of looking backward, but what would looking forward be? Going to the last Jedi for training and knowledge, right? Unless of course one message of this film is that mentors are bad and true heroes don’t have mentors. But I don’t think that’s what the movie is saying, because Yoda, the embodiment of divine wisdom here, tells Luke to pass on what he has learned to Rey.

Rey is the type of person to attach herself to people Kylo knows this. Her seeing Luke as a father figure was inevitable. It's not backwards. Just look at how quickly she attached herself to Finn and BB8? Same thing, only they were not mentor/father figures, but same attachment complex she has.

This brings up another issue: villains aren’t usually credible messengers, and are generally not the true messengers of the film. Kylo Ren, the guy who killed his own father and has massacred innocents, tells Rey that she is looking for father figures (and that this is a bad thing). Kylo Ren, the fascist leader, tells Rey to let the past die (even as Yoda tells Luke to learn from his past and as Rey holds on to Luke’s Old lightsaber and the Jedi texts). I’d be careful about inferring the true message of the film and the true import of Rey’s “arc” from the villain. The film actually tells us something different. Luke is wrong that the Jedi must die. The Resistance rekindles the spark of the old Rebellion. This story, despite what it seems to say, actually ends with an embrace of the past as a means to chart a better future.

Just being evil doesn't make you wrong.

 

[DerekLake]

Agreed. Her anger at Kylo wasn’t just that he’d killed Han Solo, it was that he had what she wanted more than anything and he destroyed it. You can see the anger at her parents coming out during those early conversations with Kylo in TLJ. She kept asking him why. She’d left Jakku, but she hadn’t yet let go of her past.

Exactly. Kylo had what Rey longed for: a loving family, and she was mad because Kylo willingly destroys the very thing she wanted all her life and didn't understand why.

Relevant to my last point. Kylo Ren murders his own father. He gets over his parents by resolving to kill them. Rey’s anger and failure to understand that does not constitute a flaw she must overcome. She is already given her choice in TFA: look backwards to Jakku, or look forward to the Force. She already chose the latter.

1) to have her look backwards again is to retread that development.

2) outside of her journey to the cave, her motivations in this film are never wrong, despite the villain trying to make it so.

3) the desire for a loving family is not a wrong desire, nor is it presented as so in this film. Luke and Leia are family, and their reunion is presented as a good thing. Luke and R2’s reunion is presented as a good thing. Finn and Poe’s reunion is presented as a good thing. And Rey and Finn’s reunion is presented as a great thing. By contrast, Ben Solo’s rejection of his family is presented as a bad thing. It is not to be emulated. So it is not presented in a comparable way to Rey looking away from those who proved to be no true family at all. In fact, if anything, Luke and Leia’s acceptance that Ben Solo was lost, when juxtaposed with Poe and Rey’s stubborn loyalty, demonstrates that very point.

So I don’t actually buy that argument. That isn’t actually her true journey, and it doesn’t really define her actions.

 

[DerekLake]

No, it means she is moving beyond Jakku and learning more about herself and her role in the universe, which still can tie into her past. Jakku was the hope that what she lost would return to her, that doesn't mean she is satisfied with the answers about her past. 2 different thing. You're assuming they're the same thing, and that is why it feels like a retread to you.

No, point A means - you were abandoned. Point B means you were abandoned for no good reason. Completely different. Just being given up can have been for a noble cause. Kylo is saying they didn't love nor care about you.

Rey is the type of person to attach herself to people Kylo knows this. Her seeing Luke as a father figure was inevitable. It's not backwards. Just look at how quickly she attached herself to Finn and BB8? Same thing, only they were not mentor/father figures, but same attachment complex she has.

Just being evil doesn't make you wrong.

Disagree on the first and third points, based on the decision Maz presents to Rey:

Rey - "What was that? I shouldn't have gone in there"
Maz - "That lightsaber was Luke's, and his father's before him and now it calls to you!"
Rey - "I have to get back to Jakku"
Maz - "Han told me" (they hold hands) "Dear child, I see your eyes - you already know the truth. Whomever you are waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back" Rey cries "but, there's someone who still could"
Rey - "Luke"
Maz - "The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead. I am no jedi, but I know the force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes, feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you. The sabre - take it."
Rey - "I'm never touching that thing again, I don't want any part of this"

When she picks up the lightsaber to fight Kylo Ren, and when she takes it to Luke, that is her deciding to look to the future. And as Maz presents it, her choice isn’t between finding belonging and finding her destiny. It’s between seeking belonging in the past and looking for it in her destiny. After all, the Force is the bond between living things. As she already finds in Finn, Chewie and Leia, the light side is never a lonely path. The dark side, however, is most certainly a lonely path, as Kylo Ren knows.

But this is how stories work. A mentor figure presents the hero with a defining choice, the fork in the road. Galdalf to Frodo. Morpheus to Neo. Obi-Wan to Luke. Stay in the past, or look to the future. It becomes a retread because the character has already made the choice to go forward. Something can certainly cause them to doubt their choice, or to be tempted to turn back, but that’s not what happens here. Here, halfway through the film, it is as if Rey hasn’t made the choice at all.

On the second point, again, this is what Maz tells Rey: “Dear child, I see your eyes - you already know the truth. Whomever you are waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back.” Kylo says the exact same thing, and the information he gives her only reinforces Maz’s point. It doesn’t actually tell her anything new, other than that it is impossible for them to come back. More importantly, nothing Kylo Ren tells her can actually impact the decisions she makes. She’s already taken the pivotal step. What does she actually do after that revelation that symbolizes that she gets it this time? Nothing.

On the fourth point, being evil means that the character is not a moral authority, and usually means that the character has false wisdom to share. And, again, the film actually suggests that Kylo Ren is wrong in what he believes.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Relevant to my last point. Kylo Ren murders his own father. He gets over his parents by resolving to kill them. Rey’s anger and failure to understand that does not constitute a flaw she must overcome. She is already given her choice in TFA: look backwards to Jakku, or look forward to the Force. She already chose the latter.

1) to have her look backwards again is to retread that development.

2) outside of her journey to the cave, her motivations in this film are never wrong, despite the villain trying to make it so.

3) the desire for a loving family is not a wrong desire, nor is it presented as so in this film. Luke and Leia are family, and their reunion is presented as a good thing. Luke and R2’s reunion is presented as a good thing. Finn and Poe’s reunion is presented as a good thing. And Rey and Finn’s reunion is presented as a great thing. By contrast, Ben Solo’s rejection of his family is presented as a bad thing. It is not to be emulated. So it is not presented in a comparable way to Rey looking away from those who proved to be no true family at all. In fact, if anything, Luke and Leia’s acceptance that Ben Solo was lost, when juxtaposed with Poe and Rey’s stubborn loyalty, demonstrates that very point.

So I don’t actually buy that argument. That isn’t actually her true journey, and it doesn’t really define her actions.

As for it looking back or not, we're just not going to agree here. I attempted to explain why it is not a backward progression and you disagree. We're arguing in circles and making the same posts over again. That's cool. I will just leave it there.

 

[Aximili86]

The Rey V.S. Luke **** again? t:

Christ. Luke went from flying farm equipment and teenager's-first-car joyride stuff to 24 hours later being able to best Imperial Navy hotshots. "Struggle" my ass.

5 minutes with a floating training droid with Obi-Wan while killing time on the way to Alderaan. That's all the training with a saber he has by the time he faces Vader, that we see on-screen. He holds his own in a fight for 10 minutes or whatever against the most dangerous mofo in the galaxy. Such a struggle!

Meanwhile: we know Rey has fighting experience before she's even met Han/Maz/Luke/Kylo. She fends off three or four goons on her own with a stick on Jakku. She's likely been in dozens of fights like that over the years fending for herself. It's implied she has basic flight experience too, given what she knows of hyperdrives and various equipment.

So...it's different how? Luke didn't know **** about saber fighting, holds his own in saber fight. Same with Rey. Luke has basic flying experience but nothing that should enable him to dogfight in a ****ing X-Wing. He does anyway. Same with Rey and the Falcon.

The. Force.

 

[I'm Venom]

It's pretty simple for me, have Luke face off with Kylo for real at the end of TLJ. Make it a monumental duel, the Jedi master vs. the Vader wannabe. Make it something the audience will be talking about for years, even the non-Star Wars fanatic.

And even though I understand the reasoning behind him having the blue lightsaber, I still would’'ve preferred the green one.

 

[Mjölnir]

The Rey V.S. Luke **** again? t:

Christ. Luke went from flying farm equipment and teenager's-first-car joyride stuff to 24 hours later being able to best Imperial Navy hotshots. "Struggle" my ass.

5 minutes with a floating training droid with Obi-Wan while killing time on the way to Alderaan. That's all the training with a saber he has by the time he faces Vader, that we see on-screen. He holds his own in a fight for 10 minutes or whatever against the most dangerous mofo in the galaxy. Such a struggle!

Meanwhile: we know Rey has fighting experience before she's even met Han/Maz/Luke/Kylo. She fends off three or four goons on her own with a stick on Jakku. She's likely been in dozens of fights like that over the years fending for herself. It's implied she has basic flight experience too, given what she knows of hyperdrives and various equipment.

So...it's different how? Luke didn't know **** about saber fighting, holds his own in saber fight. Same with Rey. Luke has basic flying experience but nothing that should enable him to dogfight in a ****ing X-Wing. He does anyway. Same with Rey and the Falcon.

The. Force.

You're still perpetuating that falsehood regarding Luke as a pilot? He's known to be an excellent pilot of the equivalent of a civilian jet plane. He's literally described as "the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories" in ANH. He's clearly meant to be a civilian ace pilot.

 

[Reaver027]

I wish they had shown a scene of Rey in her flight simulator. It is mentioned in the books but not in the movie. She has combat flight training even tho it is only in a simulator.
And Luke is already an amazing pilot at the start of ANH. Even tho it is not canon i highly recommend the Star Wars audio drama that shows him winning a race in Beggar's Canyon pulling off a life or death maneuver.

And i think we can all assume that Luke has trained with the Lightsaber between ANH and ESB. And we have seen Rey fight and can assume that was not her first fight.
Btw both Luke and rey are getting toyed with. Kylo and Vader both want to pull them over to their side. Just that Kylo is much worse than Vader and gets surprised by that sudden outburst of power and was injured as well. Luke and Rey would have never stood a chance if Vader or Kylo wanted them dead at that point of the story.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

I wish they had shown a scene of Rey in her flight simulator. It is mentioned in the books but not in the movie. She has combat flight training even tho it is only in a simulator.
And Luke is already an amazing pilot at the start of ANH. Even tho it is not canon i highly recommend the Star Wars audio drama that shows him winning a race in Beggar's Canyon pulling off a life or death maneuver.

And i think we can all assume that Luke has trained with the Lightsaber between ANH and ESB. And we have seen Rey fight and can assume that was not her first fight.
Btw both Luke and rey are getting toyed with. Kylo and Vader both want to pull them over to their side. Just that Kylo is much worse than Vader and gets surprised by that sudden outburst of power and was injured as well. Luke and Rey would have never stood a chance if Vader or Kylo wanted them dead at that point of the story.

With Rey the lightsaber issue is mainly one of poor storytelling, giving away what the audience should be longing for to see. The bigger issue from a power perspective is that she legitimately just overpowers Kylo in the Force as soon as she realizes that she's Force sensitive. No caveats, she's just already stronger than the guy that becomes the main threat of the trilogy.

 

[Reaver027]

With Rey the lightsaber issue is mainly one of poor storytelling, giving away what the audience should be longing for to see. The bigger issue from a power perspective is that she legitimately just overpowers Kylo in the Force as soon as she realizes that she's Force sensitive. No caveats, she's just already stronger than the guy that becomes the main threat of the trilogy.

I don't think she is stronger than him at that point. He is wounded and was just not prepared for such an outburst of power. Rey tapping into her rage at that point was something i would have like to see explored more in TLJ.
Just like Luke suddenly was able to overpower Vader when he threatened to turn Leia. Vader was not prepared for that either.
Even tho Luke had much more training at that point but still should not have been able to beat a fully powered Vader. Kylo's training is not complete and he is serverly injured and still should have beaten Rey.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

I don't think she is stronger than him at that point. He is wounded and was just not prepared for such an outburst of power. Rey tapping into her rage at that point was something i would have like to see explored more in TLJ.
Just like Luke suddenly was able to overpower Vader when he threatened to turn Leia. Vader was not prepared for that either.
Even tho Luke had much more training at that point but still should not have been able to beat a fully powered Vader. Kylo's training is not complete and he is serverly injured and still should have beaten Rey.

I'm talking about the interrogation scene which is before Kylo gets wounded. She just overpowers him in the Force, which sends Kylo running and she starts learning more Force powers on the fly.

The notion that Kylo's training isn't complete makes no sense, and it became even more weird in TLJ where there wasn't any training to be done, he was just supposed to kill Rey.

It really makes no sense since Kylo is nearly 30 years old, and he's been trained since he was a child by Luke Skywalker and then Snoke. He also had the most Force power Luke had felt, and Luke has felt the power of Yoda and Darth Sidious. How can Kylo be such a loser in the Force with all that? That makes Rey's ascension to power over a few days even more ridiculous.

 

[Aximili86]

He hasn't been trained since he was a child. Seems from the books it was more like late teens, and Luke being Luke was probably going pretty slow with him.

He's still probably less profient as a 30-something than, say, Obi-Wan in EpI. He's not "knight" level.

Also, power doesn't necessarily equate to victory. Obi-Wan was nothing special, he still turned Anakin into a toasty screaming quasi-corpse.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm talking about the interrogation scene which is before Kylo gets wounded. She just overpowers him in the Force, which sends Kylo running and she starts learning more Force powers on the fly.

The notion that Kylo's training isn't complete makes no sense, and it became even more weird in TLJ where there wasn't any training to be done, he was just supposed to kill Rey.

It really makes no sense since Kylo is nearly 30 years old, and he's been trained since he was a child by Luke Skywalker and then Snoke. He also had the most Force power Luke had felt, and Luke has felt the power of Yoda and Darth Sidious. How can Kylo be such a loser in the Force with all that? That makes Rey's ascension to power over a few days even more ridiculous.

I have played chess maybe 4 times in my life. My sister was dating a dude at one point who played it for years. Bragged about how many moves he can see ahead all the time, how many books he read on chess, some sort of ranking thing, etc. My brother tried to learn to beat him at chess, played him like 30 times. Was reading all these books to try to beat him. Never beat him. I played this guy once because I was pulling my brother's chain about losing all the time and he said "if you're so smart, you try" basically. Guess what, I beat him. On my only try. It was a mark of shame for my sister's boyfriend for years.

That is a true life story of absolute noob beating someone who trained at something for years. So, things like this happen.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

I have played chess maybe 4 times in my life. My sister was dating a dude at one point who played it for years. Bragged about how many moves he can see ahead all the time, how many books he read on chess, some sort of ranking thing, etc. My brother tried to learn to beat him at chess, played him like 30 times. Was reading all these books to try to beat him. Never beat him. I played this guy once because I was pulling my brother's chain about losing all the time and he said "if you're so smart, you try" basically. Guess what, I beat him. On my only try. It was a mark of shame for my sister's boyfriend for years.

That is a true life story of absolute noob beating someone who trained at something for years. So, things like this happen.

Unless that guy was one of the best chess players in the world I don't see how that touches on the issue. They make a deal about how powerful Kylo Ren is in the Force, and they even try to further build on that when Luke says that Ben had the most power he had ever felt (and he had seen Yoda and Sidious use the Force). On top of that extreme talent Ben/Kylo was trained under Luke Skywalker and Snoke for many years.

So it's closer to beating someone like Gary Kasparov on your first try. Someone that loses at chess to a newbie just isn't very good at it. You have way too much control in chess to be surprised if you know what you're doing.

And then we have the dramatic issue of the entire thing. We have the guy that now has taken over the role as the big bad of the trilogy, without getting a power boost, and we've already gotten to see the young hero defeat him soundly. That only pushes us to want something else, like a Kylo turn to the light, because there's no need to long for what we've already seen.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Unless that guy was one of the best chess players in the world I don't see how that touches on the issue. They make a deal about how powerful Kylo Ren is in the Force, and they even try to further build on that when Luke says that Ben had the most power he had ever felt (and he had seen Yoda and Sidious use the Force). On top of that extreme talent Ben/Kylo was trained under Luke Skywalker and Snoke for many years.

So it's closer to beating someone like Gary Kasparov on your first try. Someone that loses at chess to a newbie just isn't very good at it. You have way too much control in chess to be surprised if you know what you're doing.

And then we have the dramatic issue of the entire thing. We have the guy that now has taken over the role as the big bad of the trilogy, without getting a power boost, and we've already gotten to see the young hero defeat him soundly. That only pushes us to want something else, like a Kylo turn to the light, because there's no need to long for what we've already seen.

Not every villain is scary through sheer power. Kylo is not a good villain like Vader in that regard. But, let's look at pro wrestling. Yeah, you have guys like Triple H who always seem to win and pound people into bloody messes. But, look at Ric Flair. He won all the time, but would get thrashed in 95% of the match before he won. He always appeared beatable but would win through cheating or something like that. My point is, you can have a good heel without them being OP. Kylo in this case is a good villain because he is unhinged, can't control himself, etc. His flaws make him interesting. I am curious to see what a guy like that looks like as Emperor. We already saw the OP Palpatine or Snoke versions. We've treaded that ground. Kylo will be something new. I find that refreshing.