what would you like to see in season 2 of Wolverine and the X-Men

[Primal Slayer]

More of Storm! And more kickbutt leader Storm instead of Storm who always gets her butt handed to her somehow.

 

[Dread]

More of Storm! And more kickbutt leader Storm instead of Storm who always gets her butt handed to her somehow.

To be fair, Storm has struggled in many of the X-Men cartoons. Her depiction in the 90's show was often comically melodramatic and over-the-top (and she seemed to get blasted in every other fight as well). She often took a back seat in EVOLUTION, and her lone focus episode was terrible. Still, as for many years in the comics she was built as the "ideal" leader of the X-Men instead of Cyclops, I wouldn't mind if she had a better working relationship with Logan and more say. We saw a little bit of that in Episode 15, "Hunting Ground", when Storm organized Rogue and Iceman into a rescue mission when Logan had been kidnapped by Mojo, but not enough.

At the very least, "Overflow", episode 4, was a better episode than 1993's "Whatever It Takes", which was essentially similar.

Back to the Colossus subject, I'd like to add that I'd enjoy watching him go one-on-one with the Hulk but I doubt they'll do another throwaway Hulk guest spot. Or even a not so throwaway guest spot. But I'd settle for watching Colossus whack Gambit, not that I have anything personal against the Cajun.

Considering Fred Tacasciore is a regular on the cast as Beast, another Hulk guest-appearance isn't nearly as unlikely as many other heroes. In fact, it could make a decent episode with Wolverine's trying to "give SHIELD what they deserved" with that whole ordeal with Hulk and the Wendigos backfiring on the X-Men later. I mean if Johnson, Kyle, and company want to stick with their theory that Wolverine is not the best leader and makes mistakes, then at one point some of his mistakes would have to have real ramifications besides a wisecrack from Kitty or Frost, right? Personally, I wouldn't want a Colossus vs. Hulk fight if only because Colossus would lose, and he hasn't won a fight on TV since 1993's "Red Dawn". X-MEN EVOLUTION gave me more than I could bare of Colossus showing up fairly often, but losing immediately in virtually every fight he was in. Wolverine may have been able to beat the Hulk on this show with a grenade to the face, but Colossus would be flattened. To be honest, only the Thing is usually allowed to put up a semi-decent showing against Hulk; even Thor usually goes down like a sop. He's Marvel's Goku. There is no threat Hulk can't overcome by yelling and charging forward; the fact that he is rivals with Wolverine, who can overcome nearly any threat with his nose (his smell literally gives him "ghost vision" now that is completely infallible and can even smell colors and the order of people coming or leaving a room) and stabbing things, is irony.

I mean if it was storyboarded well, a Hulk vs. Colossus fight could be cool. I just don't imagine Colossus putting up a decent showing against Hulk; he never has in the comics, to be fair. He's the quickest dropping 85 ton tanker in Marvel, honestly. It's not just the cartoons. Colossus hasn't beaten a noteworthy enemy since the 70's I would argue. Even Ord was diminished by being beaten by Lockheed and often being comic relief.

I'm sort of picturing an epic Juggernaut fight once Colossus returns as being likely and would be good. This cartoon has yet to make Juggernaut look imposing and it could be pretty cool. The last time they fought him, the X-Men suffered from Cyclops being distracted as well as having no "big man" to counter him. Even Beast is barely an annoyance to Juggy. A rematch could be cool.

As for the Scott/Jean/Emma debate that continues, I don't think Jean being attracted to someone else would "ruin" her character. She dated Dunc in EVOLUTION for Season 2. I would argue being a wallflower for Cyclops is limiting. She has to have her own needs and wants, and could have reasonable questions as to whether Cyclops can deliver that. Maybe she wants more than to be his co-dependent obsession. The writers would have to build her up with focus in Season 2, but I don't see them leaving Frost in the ground forever. I think Craig Kyle likes her too much.

 

[Panthro]

To be fair, Storm has struggled in many of the X-Men cartoons. Her depiction in the 90's show was often comically melodramatic and over-the-top (and she seemed to get blasted in every other fight as well). She often took a back seat in EVOLUTION, and her lone focus episode was terrible. Still, as for many years in the comics she was built as the "ideal" leader of the X-Men instead of Cyclops, I wouldn't mind if she had a better working relationship with Logan and more say. We saw a little bit of that in Episode 15, "Hunting Ground", when Storm organized Rogue and Iceman into a rescue mission when Logan had been kidnapped by Mojo, but not enough.

At the very least, "Overflow", episode 4, was a better episode than 1993's "Whatever It Takes", which was essentially similar.

She seems to be one of those characters writers often struggle with.

Considering Fred Tacasciore is a regular on the cast as Beast, another Hulk guest-appearance isn't nearly as unlikely as many other heroes. In fact, it could make a decent episode with Wolverine's trying to "give SHIELD what they deserved" with that whole ordeal with Hulk and the Wendigos backfiring on the X-Men later. I mean if Johnson, Kyle, and company want to stick with their theory that Wolverine is not the best leader and makes mistakes, then at one point some of his mistakes would have to have real ramifications besides a wisecrack from Kitty or Frost, right?

Question is, can they make it worth our wile?

Personally, I wouldn't want a Colossus vs. Hulk fight if only because Colossus would lose, and he hasn't won a fight on TV since 1993's "Red Dawn". X-MEN EVOLUTION gave me more than I could bare of Colossus showing up fairly often, but losing immediately in virtually every fight he was in. Wolverine may have been able to beat the Hulk on this show with a grenade to the face, but Colossus would be flattened. To be honest, only the Thing is usually allowed to put up a semi-decent showing against Hulk; even Thor usually goes down like a sop. He's Marvel's Goku. There is no threat Hulk can't overcome by yelling and charging forward; the fact that he is rivals with Wolverine, who can overcome nearly any threat with his nose (his smell literally gives him "ghost vision" now that is completely infallible and can even smell colors and the order of people coming or leaving a room) and stabbing things, is irony.

Which is really sad, that Wolverine gets to put up a better fight against the Hulk than two other heroes who are technically stronger than the clawed one. It's amazing what popularity can do to these fights, isn't it? I mean Hell, they'd have Spider-Man beat Colossus, Thor AND Hulk.

I mean if it was storyboarded well, a Hulk vs. Colossus fight could be cool. I just don't imagine Colossus putting up a decent showing against Hulk; he never has in the comics, to be fair. He's the quickest dropping 85 ton tanker in Marvel, honestly. It's not just the cartoons. Colossus hasn't beaten a noteworthy enemy since the 70's I would argue. Even Ord was diminished by being beaten by Lockheed and often being comic relief.

I'd settle for Colossus fighting Hulk to a stand still. But that might be too much to hope for, given how often things are rigged against him.

As for the Scott/Jean/Emma debate that continues, I don't think Jean being attracted to someone else would "ruin" her character. She dated Dunc in EVOLUTION for Season 2. I would argue being a wallflower for Cyclops is limiting. She has to have her own needs and wants, and could have reasonable questions as to whether Cyclops can deliver that. Maybe she wants more than to be his co-dependent obsession. The writers would have to build her up with focus in Season 2, but I don't see them leaving Frost in the ground forever. I think Craig Kyle likes her too much.

However they choose to play it out, I wouldn't be surprised if Jean gets the better end of the stick characterization wise than Cycke, since Cycke is not allowed to be sympathetic in any way, shape, or form and is not allowed to have any positive qualities or positive logic behind him.

Also, comparing Cycke to JFK & Martin Luther King Jr. (as VileOne did on the previous page) is kind of an insult to those men.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Storm is basically the WW of Marvel which is a bad and good thing. I dont understand whats so hard for writers to grasp on when it comes to writing episodes for her or just writing the charecter in general. It would be nice to see them atleast try.

 

[Dread]

She seems to be one of those characters writers often struggle with.

Definitely, even in the comics. Even Claremont at times has been a parody of himself writing her. Exactly HOW many people have wanted to make her their queen now, Chris?

Question is, can they make it worth our wile?

As I noted in my "for instance", it would be possible to link it to that prior episode as a sequel. Maybe the X-Men need SHIELD's assistance for something but because Logan sicced the Hulk on Nick Fury, they are not willing to oblige. Maybe Nick Fury tries to manipulate the Hulk against the X-Men again, perhaps exploiting some of their more noble members if Logan were away for some reason. Don't get me wrong; SHIELD and Nick Fury were in the wrong with the whole Hulk/Wendigo situation, and Logan was hardly too out of line trying to give them a taste of their own medicine. It also wouldn't be out of line if the writers wanted to have some of Logan's "eye for an eye" sense of justice occasionally backfire.

Which is really sad, that Wolverine gets to put up a better fight against the Hulk than two other heroes who are technically stronger than the clawed one. It's amazing what popularity can do to these fights, isn't it? I mean Hell, they'd have Spider-Man beat Colossus, Thor AND Hulk.

I'd settle for Colossus fighting Hulk to a stand still. But that might be too much to hope for, given how often things are rigged against him.

To be fair, comic book battles are often determined on popularity more than power levels or logic for some time now. Marvel is hardly the only company that does that. Lord knows DC spent many years making Batman almost unbeatable. It does stink, unless you are a fan of such "popular" characters. For me it always depends on a story situation.

It is possible a Colossus vs. Hulk brawl could come to a draw if story-boarded, if such a thing happens. Trying to not sound hopelessly pessimistic, Greg Johnson at least has stated that he and the others wanted to introduce Colossus back into the fold properly. It didn't filter down to the promotional department, but that's out of their hands in a way. Johnson has the right attitude about it, hopefully he and the gang deliver in Season 2 in that regard.

It shouldn't be a huge deal. Colossus and Wolverine always got along in the comics, same with Kurt and Kitty and whatnot.

However they choose to play it out, I wouldn't be surprised if Jean gets the better end of the stick characterization wise than Cycke, since Cycke is not allowed to be sympathetic in any way, shape, or form and is not allowed to have any positive qualities or positive logic behind him.

I believe Vile was implying that even "great" men have vices and imperfections.

I do think the writers overplayed the hand a bit with Cyclops, at best. The tricky thing with character quirks, especially when you are trying to play a character against type, as this season did with Scott, is that the margin for error is very slim. Often times a writer may underplay it, or overdo it. And that line between extremes is of course subjective and depends on the viewer.

Very few cartoons are willing to have a non-evil female character seem "wrong" in many situations. Even in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, Peter Parker is often clearly the one botching his own love life, albeit not always deliberately. In Season 2, his relationship with Liz Allen does come close to painting him as a cad, although doesn't cross that line because it isn't intentional. And, of course, having a secret identity complicates many love lives. That is something the X-Men rarely have to deal with. Everyone knows they are X-Men, and they usually date within team. In fact that could be interesting fodder for an Iceman episode, perhaps Bobby is somewhere trying to have fun and runs into a girl who has no idea that Bobby Drake is Iceman and things get complicated, maybe Opal from some X-Factor comics....that almost writes itself, doesn't it? But I digress.

The challenge of Season 2 would be to handle the relationship without making anyone seem "wrong" but still fairly human. It's not easy from how things were left in Season 1. I don't think that could have been avoided. The writers wanted the finale to be the best it could be, and had no clue the show would be renewed when they were writing and producing it. If they had held back and the show wasn't picked up, they would likely regret "pulling the punch". The writers already have a task to make Jean more of a character rather than just as Cyclops' missing princess, and that's not as complicated. I honestly feel Frost was too interesting to the writers, too keyed into the modern X-Men comics, and played too well by Kari Wahlgren for her to be "deceased" for an entire second season, considering being shattered failed to kill her forever in the comics.

Plus, there is that sense that Scott & Jean has been done a few times already, and this show is the first to have a modern version of Frost, who hasn't been a "villain" since the mid 90's when GENERATION X started. Jean and Scott were a couple, but Jean also hasn't seen Scott at his worst; Frost did and still found something to like about him anyway.

 

[Panthro]

Definitely, even in the comics. Even Claremont at times has been a parody of himself writing her. Exactly HOW many people have wanted to make her their queen now, Chris?

Enough to form at least two or three football teams. It would be nice to see more of a working relationship between her & Wolvie though.

As I noted in my "for instance", it would be possible to link it to that prior episode as a sequel. Maybe the X-Men need SHIELD's assistance for something but because Logan sicced the Hulk on Nick Fury, they are not willing to oblige. Maybe Nick Fury tries to manipulate the Hulk against the X-Men again, perhaps exploiting some of their more noble members if Logan were away for some reason. Don't get me wrong; SHIELD and Nick Fury were in the wrong with the whole Hulk/Wendigo situation, and Logan was hardly too out of line trying to give them a taste of their own medicine. It also wouldn't be out of line if the writers wanted to have some of Logan's "eye for an eye" sense of justice occasionally backfire.

Well this is true.

To be fair, comic book battles are often determined on popularity more than power levels or logic for some time now. Marvel is hardly the only company that does that. Lord knows DC spent many years making Batman almost unbeatable. It does stink, unless you are a fan of such "popular" characters. For me it always depends on a story situation.

Which is sad. I like Batman, but I don't like pandering to him just because he sells more of everything.

It is possible a Colossus vs. Hulk brawl could come to a draw if story-boarded, if such a thing happens. Trying to not sound hopelessly pessimistic, Greg Johnson at least has stated that he and the others wanted to introduce Colossus back into the fold properly. It didn't filter down to the promotional department, but that's out of their hands in a way. Johnson has the right attitude about it, hopefully he and the gang deliver in Season 2 in that regard.

It shouldn't be a huge deal. Colossus and Wolverine always got along in the comics, same with Kurt and Kitty and whatnot.

You'd think a Colossus Vs. Hulk brawl would actually be easier to do for TV, since you don't necessarily have to have bloodshed as the two knock each other around. I found the Wolvie/Hulk episode to be a little lame, especially compared to the DTV where they didn't have to hold back as much. With Hulk & Colossus, they can just punch away at each other & hit each other with big blunt objects and you wouldn't have to show blood. Hell, you could have Cyclops blast the Hulk in the face at point blank range and get away with it due to lack of bloodshed.

I believe Vile was implying that even "great" men have vices and imperfections.

Cyclops isn't exactly a "great" man though. He's more of a mediocre man at best. Maybe I'm over-reaching here, but is it possible that the reason Xavier's shunned Cyclops throughout the season is because he saw something hinting at the AoA future where Cycke works for the bad guys? Just a thought.

I do think the writers overplayed the hand a bit with Cyclops, at best. The tricky thing with character quirks, especially when you are trying to play a character against type, as this season did with Scott, is that the margin for error is very slim. Often times a writer may underplay it, or overdo it. And that line between extremes is of course subjective and depends on the viewer.

This is also true. It's going to be hard to take him seriously though.

Very few cartoons are willing to have a non-evil female character seem "wrong" in many situations.

But why is that? I find it a little annoying, to be honest with you.

Plus, there is that sense that Scott & Jean has been done a few times already, and this show is the first to have a modern version of Frost, who hasn't been a "villain" since the mid 90's when GENERATION X started. Jean and Scott were a couple, but Jean also hasn't seen Scott at his worst; Frost did and still found something to like about him anyway.

Maybe Frost has a thing for needy men with low self-esteem and competency issues?

And as some other posters were saying a few pages back, Jean dating Logan, if only for a few eps, would finally give the clawed one a chance to either put up or shut up about being better for her than Cycke (and so far he appears to be anyway).

I wouldn't mind seeing Rogue acquire the Ms. Marvel powers, if only very briefly (and I have a feeling that if she did it would only be brief since she hasn't had them in the comics for a few years now). There's got to be something there they can wring solid hubris drama from.

Man, I need to stop posting in here. I'm starting to feel like a troll.

 

[Obsidian Idea]

I would be way off the mark....way off....if I said I think it's hard for non-African-Americans to write for African-American characters...because so many do and do it well and successfully...but sometimes I wonder if this is what Storm sometimes suffers from...

How do you get into the head of a strong, African-American woman or in ebonic(even though I hate the term ebonic) terms...a "sista?" But this can be a loaded question because, for the most part, Ororo isn't your typical black woman....1610 Storm may be more or less...but 616 Storm is more of a "Goddess" type character.

Bottom line...you have to have writers that are interested in writing and developing the character. I don't think a lot of writers..especially now....are into Storm that much..which is a shame because I love her...she's one of the most prominent Marvel heroines ever. She's proven herself time and time again what it means to be an X-man...she lead the freakin' team with no powers..no powers! She's awesome!! She's been my favorite X-men since I laid eyes on her in "Pryde of the X-men." We need to see a little more of her and her story in W&TX this season.

 

[Dread]

Enough to form at least two or three football teams. It would be nice to see more of a working relationship between her & Wolvie though.

As I noted, Season 1 had a very brief taste of that; hopefully Season 2 improves on that.

You'd think a Colossus Vs. Hulk brawl would actually be easier to do for TV, since you don't necessarily have to have bloodshed as the two knock each other around. I found the Wolvie/Hulk episode to be a little lame, especially compared to the DTV where they didn't have to hold back as much. With Hulk & Colossus, they can just punch away at each other & hit each other with big blunt objects and you wouldn't have to show blood. Hell, you could have Cyclops blast the Hulk in the face at point blank range and get away with it due to lack of bloodshed.

After the awesomeness that was HULK VS. WOLVERINE, which was just 35 minutes of "epic win" in animation form, there was little way a network episode was going to do it justice. Despite Kyle assuring us the continuity was related, it really wasn't unless they made some writing errors, but it's just as well.

You do have a point; Colossus is supposed to be semi-invulnerable and can take a lot; in many ways far more than Wolverine can. He's barely been fazed by falls from airplanes, for instance. On the other hand, I would probably rather see such an intense brawl against Juggernaut or Apocalypse than Hulk, at least for an X-Men show. Between DTV's and an Avengers show coming up, Hulk gets a lot of play already.

Cyclops isn't exactly a "great" man though. He's more of a mediocre man at best. Maybe I'm over-reaching here, but is it possible that the reason Xavier's shunned Cyclops throughout the season is because he saw something hinting at the AoA future where Cycke works for the bad guys? Just a thought.

That could be a way to try to explain why Xavier treated Scott so coldly. To be honest this X-Men show is notable to me by how cold many of the characters are to each other. Sure, Cyclops was being a depressed jerk, but not one of the X-Men aside for Frost gave a crap about him beyond wanting him to dress for missions. After one episode, virtually all of the X-Men have given up Angel for lost to Mr. Sinister and just see him as any ordinary adversary. Despite Jean being one of his five founding X-Men, Xavier came to the conclusion that she had to be killed to save the future with astonishingly little remorse, barely considering any alternative (and dismissed Cyclops when he naturally would be opposed to the idea; even Logan seemed a bit taken aback by Xavier doing so). If Kitty and Kurt were friends with Colossus as in the beginning of the show, they never mention missing him. Of course this could all be non-deliberate; you only have about 19-20 minutes per episode to do what you want and many episodes were packed to the gills. There was no assurance that it would be renewed so there was maybe a sense of "do everything we want to do now". Hopefully now that it is a proven commodity and there is another 26 episodes to breathe, these issues will be ironed out. Despite my criticisms, I know most shows, besides HEROES, are not at their best in season one.

This is also true. It's going to be hard to take him seriously though.

The writers do have their work cut out for them in this regard.

But why is that? I find it a little annoying, to be honest with you.

I'm not sure. It may not be anything. I partly see it as "making up" for the decades in animation and TV shows when, let's be honest, the tone was very sexist and loaded with "machismo". Women were weak and supportive, usually only for hostages, etc. One could argue this didn't start to drastically shift in animation until after BUFFY became hot in the late 90's. KIM POSSIBLE herself was a trend-setter in that way.

Maybe Frost has a thing for needy men with low self-esteem and competency issues?

And as some other posters were saying a few pages back, Jean dating Logan, if only for a few eps, would finally give the clawed one a chance to either put up or shut up about being better for her than Cycke (and so far he appears to be anyway).

I wouldn't mind seeing Rogue acquire the Ms. Marvel powers, if only very briefly (and I have a feeling that if she did it would only be brief since she hasn't had them in the comics for a few years now). There's got to be something there they can wring solid hubris drama from.

Man, I need to stop posting in here. I'm starting to feel like a troll.

I don't consider you a troll. We're having a conversation.

The feeling I got was that Frost liked Scott for two reasons. The first was she felt remorse for her actions by seeing the impact they had on the X-Men through Scott's mind and eyes, and whether directly or not, Scott brought out the best in her. Secondly, I think she related to him to some degree, although why exactly wasn't clear. She was described as having been a "former villain" who trained her own school of mutants to be "bullies", but beyond that and her being with the Inner Circle, there is a bit of her life that is blank. The sense I got was that perhaps at some point Frost was more "nice" and circumstances showed her that being "meaner" or more assertive and even selfish proved to be more useful to get her goals. There was a line from "Excessive Force" that I particularly thought was meaningful, when Logan claims Cyclops was working off his rage. Frost replies, "He [Scott] has every right to be angry. He is a good person in a world that seeks to crush good people."

Jean dating or being attracted to Logan, like any plot point, comes down to execution. That was my biggest criticism with Season 1, that some of the execution of many of their ideas and plots wasn't perfect or maybe as polished as intended. Some saw Logan and Cyke "reversing roles", but they really didn't. As a "angry loner", Cyclops didn't have the strengths Logan has in that role. He needed to be saved at every turn. He was not loyal to the end. He didn't end up saving the day no matter how often he stormed off to do his lone wolf thing. Logan, as the berserker loner, usually can handle things on his own, and even his mistakes usually end up saving the day at the end. The movies displayed this; every time Wolverine shirked team tactics and stormed off on his own, guess what, it always worked to save the mission. But that's repeating myself. I'll be interested to see how these things are improved on next season.

A Ms. Marvel appearance could be interesting. Carol Danvers actually spent a bit of time with the X-Men after Rogue drained her abilities in the comics. Kyle and Johnson seem to like Rogue's "normal" powers better, though, from their EVOLUTION tenure, and they're cheap enough. I've usually enjoyed how they've handled Rogue.

I would be way off the mark....way off....if I said I think it's hard for non-African-Americans to write for African-American characters...because so many do and do it well and successfully...but sometimes I wonder if this is what Storm sometimes suffers from...

How do you get into the head of a strong, African-American woman or in ebonic(even though I hate the term ebonic) terms...a "sista?" But this can be a loaded question because, for the most part, Ororo isn't your typical black woman....1610 Storm may be more or less...but 616 Storm is more of a "Goddess" type character.

Bottom line...you have to have writers that are interested in writing and developing the character. I don't think a lot of writers..especially now....are into Storm that much..which is a shame because I love her...she's one of the most prominent Marvel heroines ever. She's proven herself time and time again what it means to be an X-man...she lead the freakin' team with no powers..no powers! She's awesome!! She's been my favorite X-men since I laid eyes on her in "Pryde of the X-men." We need to see a little more of her and her story in W&TX this season.

1610 Storm?

Storm can be a difficult character to write, I guess. I'm not sure as to the reason and whatnot but hopefully she is fleshed more in Season 2.

 

[Neptune]

So when does season 2 start?

 

[Dread]

A date hasn't been set either for a U.S. airing or for overseas airings (I would expect it to air sooner in Canada and Latin America, much like Season 1 did). Production on Season 2 is underway but it can take 12-18 months on average for finished animation to return overseas. I wouldn't expect to see a full episode anywhere before 2010. It is possible a teaser for season 2 could be ready around Thanksgiving or X-Mas.

 

[Panthro]

As I noted, Season 1 had a very brief taste of that; hopefully Season 2 improves on that.

I think we're all hoping.

After the awesomeness that was HULK VS. WOLVERINE, which was just 35 minutes of "epic win" in animation form, there was little way a network episode was going to do it justice. Despite Kyle assuring us the continuity was related, it really wasn't unless they made some writing errors, but it's just as well.

I would have preferred an episode about Beast in place of a Hulk guest spot. Fred does a great job with Beast's voice and he deserves more air time.

You do have a point; Colossus is supposed to be semi-invulnerable and can take a lot; in many ways far more than Wolverine can. He's barely been fazed by falls from airplanes, for instance.

Thanks. It also worked well for the fight between the Hulk and the Thing when Hulk guest starred on the 90s Fantastic Four in season 2 - that was a well done fight and not a drop of blood in sight.

On the other hand, I would probably rather see such an intense brawl against Juggernaut or Apocalypse than Hulk, at least for an X-Men show. Between DTV's and an Avengers show coming up, Hulk gets a lot of play already.

Hulk's like the Energizer Bunny. Hulk just keeps going and going and going and going...

That could be a way to try to explain why Xavier treated Scott so coldly.

And if they go that route, they can show it blew up in Xavier's face.

To be honest this X-Men show is notable to me by how cold many of the characters are to each other. Sure, Cyclops was being a depressed jerk, but not one of the X-Men aside for Frost gave a crap about him beyond wanting him to dress for missions. After one episode, virtually all of the X-Men have given up Angel for lost to Mr. Sinister and just see him as any ordinary adversary. Despite Jean being one of his five founding X-Men, Xavier came to the conclusion that she had to be killed to save the future with astonishingly little remorse, barely considering any alternative (and dismissed Cyclops when he naturally would be opposed to the idea; even Logan seemed a bit taken aback by Xavier doing so). If Kitty and Kurt were friends with Colossus as in the beginning of the show, they never mention missing him. Of course this could all be non-deliberate; you only have about 19-20 minutes per episode to do what you want and many episodes were packed to the gills. There was no assurance that it would be renewed so there was maybe a sense of "do everything we want to do now". Hopefully now that it is a proven commodity and there is another 26 episodes to breathe, these issues will be ironed out. Despite my criticisms, I know most shows, besides HEROES, are not at their best in season one.

Or maybe it was deliberate to show how fragmented they were under Logan's leadership? I don't know. Or that coldness could be a factor for turning Cyclops against the X-Men for the AoA storyline, or at the very least Emma Frost winning Cycke away from Jean? I wouldn't put it past her to use that as leverage to get the visor man where she wants him, especially if say, she's getting catty with Jean over something like the 'wipe Jean from all of Scott's memories' bit - "While you were off playing amnesiac, I was here watching as the not so astonishing X-Men abandoned Scott to his pain, and I was the only who reached out to him and tried to help him. No one, not your great mentor Xavier, not your fellow founders Angel, Beast, Iceman, and certainly not your great clawed hope Logan, lifted so much as a finger to help Scott. They were all going to let him waste away and die while they gathered around Logan and fed his ego. And after Scott went through all that grief for nothing, you're still looking over your shoulder at Logan."

The writers do have their work cut out for them in this regard.

It's gonna be tough.

I'm not sure. It may not be anything. I partly see it as "making up" for the decades in animation and TV shows when, let's be honest, the tone was very sexist and loaded with "machismo". Women were weak and supportive, usually only for hostages, etc. One could argue this didn't start to drastically shift in animation until after BUFFY became hot in the late 90's. KIM POSSIBLE herself was a trend-setter in that way.

Hmm... that is possible.

I don't consider you a troll. We're having a conversation.

Sometimes I just don't feel like I'm really contributing.

The feeling I got was that Frost liked Scott for two reasons. The first was she felt remorse for her actions by seeing the impact they had on the X-Men through Scott's mind and eyes, and whether directly or not, Scott brought out the best in her. Secondly, I think she related to him to some degree, although why exactly wasn't clear. She was described as having been a "former villain" who trained her own school of mutants to be "bullies", but beyond that and her being with the Inner Circle, there is a bit of her life that is blank. The sense I got was that perhaps at some point Frost was more "nice" and circumstances showed her that being "meaner" or more assertive and even selfish proved to be more useful to get her goals. There was a line from "Excessive Force" that I particularly thought was meaningful, when Logan claims Cyclops was working off his rage. Frost replies, "He [Scott] has every right to be angry. He is a good person in a world that seeks to crush good people."

Too bad we never saw much of that "good person". The line would have worked better if we saw him, at some point, actually do something competent & heroic, even if not in present maybe in flashbacks. Hell, even showing him offer to help an old lady across the street would have been more positive and encouraging than being told he was a useless putz his whole life.

Or, and I would prefer this not be the explanation they go with, maybe Frost's interest in Scott derived from some weirdly misplaced sense of envy from seeing Scott's "devotion" (if you can call it that) to finding Jean. Like what if Frost's thinking "Gee, this Jean girl is lucky. All my life I've never had anyone care about me the way Scott cares about her." But I really don't like that as an answer because that just doesn't seem to fit Frost, and I doubt it would be any healthier than the co-dependent relationship Scott's stuck in right now.

Jean dating or being attracted to Logan, like any plot point, comes down to execution.

Making Logan Jean's "one true love" would be pretty lame. Or maybe, GASP, the relationship with Logan blows up in Jean's face and she finds that the tough, rebellious biker guy with the claws doesn't make such a good boyfriend after all, that might be fun to watch. Maybe if they go for it and have Jean dump Scott for Logan, Scott might get in a parting shot at her: "I hope you think Logan's still interesting when he disappears for days or weeks at a time for whatever reason and doesn't stop to say goodbye or even leave you a note." Of course, if Jean did dump Scott for Logan and then got mad at Scott for dating Emma, she'd still come off as a hypocrite, but I digress.

That was my biggest criticism with Season 1, that some of the execution of many of their ideas and plots wasn't perfect or maybe as polished as intended. Some saw Logan and Cyke "reversing roles", but they really didn't. As a "angry loner", Cyclops didn't have the strengths Logan has in that role. He needed to be saved at every turn. He was not loyal to the end. He didn't end up saving the day no matter how often he stormed off to do his lone wolf thing.

Because Cyclops is never allowed to upstage Wolverine.

Logan, as the berserker loner, usually can handle things on his own, and even his mistakes usually end up saving the day at the end. The movies displayed this; every time Wolverine shirked team tactics and stormed off on his own, guess what, it always worked to save the mission. But that's repeating myself. I'll be interested to see how these things are improved on next season.

Here's hoping.

A Ms. Marvel appearance could be interesting. Carol Danvers actually spent a bit of time with the X-Men after Rogue drained her abilities in the comics. Kyle and Johnson seem to like Rogue's "normal" powers better, though, from their EVOLUTION tenure, and they're cheap enough. I've usually enjoyed how they've handled Rogue.

I kind of preferred Rogue when she had Ms. Marvel's powers. But then again, that was the Rogue I grew up with, so I'm biased towards that version to the powered down versions.

I think Grey DeLisle (Janet Pym in Ultimate Avengers 1 & 2, Sif in Hulk Vs. Thor) could probably a fine job as Ms. Marvel/Carol Danvers. I wouldn't be against having Jennifer Hale (who already voices Jean) do Carol either.

Now I know this is a little off topic, but I noticed in a few different threads (including this one) a certain level of... disdain towards certain comic canon or 'default' couples. I cannot help but ask - why? These couples have lasted for decades in comics, so there must be something there that works, right?

 

[Obsidian Idea]

1610 is the designation for the Ultimate Universe.....Ultimate Storm..thats who I was referring to..

 

[Dread]

I would have preferred an episode about Beast in place of a Hulk guest spot. Fred does a great job with Beast's voice and he deserves more air time.

Agreed. Most other X-Men shows have had at least one Beast centered episode within the first 26. Hopefully he gets more to do in Season 2.

Of course, Dark Beast has never been animated, and he's connected to Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse...

Thanks. It also worked well for the fight between the Hulk and the Thing when Hulk guest starred on the 90s Fantastic Four in season 2 - that was a well done fight and not a drop of blood in sight.

The 90's FF cartoon only aired in syndication so it was able to avoid many network rules on violence. But, yes, it did help when a brawl is taking place between two "monster" looking opponents. To be fair, beyond Wolverine not being able to slice people (on camera at least), the censors haven't been too harsh on the show. There were a few decent "crunch" moments. I just think some of the storyboarding for some of the action could be a tad better.

And if they go that route, they can show it blew up in Xavier's face.

I sort of doubt that will happen. On the other hand, something has to happen in Season 2 to avoid repeating the same plot formula of Season 1. I don't think Johnson, Kyle, Yost, Fine and company want to be THAT obvious. I expect something to change up expectations.

Or maybe it was deliberate to show how fragmented they were under Logan's leadership? I don't know. Or that coldness could be a factor for turning Cyclops against the X-Men for the AoA storyline, or at the very least Emma Frost winning Cycke away from Jean? I wouldn't put it past her to use that as leverage to get the visor man where she wants him, especially if say, she's getting catty with Jean over something like the 'wipe Jean from all of Scott's memories' bit - "While you were off playing amnesiac, I was here watching as the not so astonishing X-Men abandoned Scott to his pain, and I was the only who reached out to him and tried to help him. No one, not your great mentor Xavier, not your fellow founders Angel, Beast, Iceman, and certainly not your great clawed hope Logan, lifted so much as a finger to help Scott. They were all going to let him waste away and die while they gathered around Logan and fed his ego. And after Scott went through all that grief for nothing, you're still looking over your shoulder at Logan."

To be honest it would have been fun if Frost tried to sway Cyclops into joining the Hellfire Club at the end of Season 1 for a moment or two along those lines. "I may have been a mole, but I was the only one who cared about you the moment Logan came along. At least here you wouldn't be under his shadow, constantly pitied or loathed by former friends." It became moot once Frost turned against the Club anyway, a feat Selene at least attributed to her getting "too close" to the X-Men in general and Cyclops in particular. One could argue that Cyclops' feat of managing to melt Frost's heart enough for her to step up and sacrifice herself for the greater good was what really saved the future, at least from Master Mold; the irony is Cyclops wasn't deliberately doing so and barely seemed notice her passing with Jean around.

Frankly, I think the "coldness" isn't deliberate. I think it comes from the type of show W&TXM was, at least in Season 1. It placed spectacle above emotional depth. Not saying there was none; there was some. But it wasn't X-MEN EVOLUTION, which was the polar opposite. Over 60% of that show was NOTHING but character interaction and pathos, often with some very basic or even crude plots or token "threats" in many episodes. WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, though, was more focused on the storyline and on the events than some of the characters. There seemed to be little time to spare for extra dialogue or feelings because plot had to move, Sentinels had to blow up, that kind of thing. And to be fair, Cyclops was one of few characters who got about 3 episodes almost exclusively devoted to him. It didn't make him especially sympathetic, but he was fleshed out more than, say, Iceman, Storm, or Beast.

The storyline in Season 1 wasn't bad. It had some continuity hiccups (the biggest being that the Master Mold plot and the Phoenix Plot had NOTHING to do with each other beyond happening to come to a head at around the same period of time, which is sloppy), but when it was on, it was compelling and riveting. Hopefully Season 2 is better able to balance that sort of attention to spectacle with character stuff. Because in the end, the best spectacle in the universe isn't as good if the characters aren't as fleshed so you care about them.

It's gonna be tough.

Redeeming Cyclops? Yeah. Not impossible, but tough. If they pull it off, they'll have earned their props.

Sometimes I just don't feel like I'm really contributing.

You sure contributed this time around!

Too bad we never saw much of that "good person". The line would have worked better if we saw him, at some point, actually do something competent & heroic, even if not in present maybe in flashbacks. Hell, even showing him offer to help an old lady across the street would have been more positive and encouraging than being told he was a useless putz his whole life.

Or, and I would prefer this not be the explanation they go with, maybe Frost's interest in Scott derived from some weirdly misplaced sense of envy from seeing Scott's "devotion" (if you can call it that) to finding Jean. Like what if Frost's thinking "Gee, this Jean girl is lucky. All my life I've never had anyone care about me the way Scott cares about her." But I really don't like that as an answer because that just doesn't seem to fit Frost, and I doubt it would be any healthier than the co-dependent relationship Scott's stuck in right now.

Indeed, that was the one major failing of Episode 20, "Breakdown". That was the show's biggest chance to show us from where Cyclops had fallen in his grief for Jean, and they fumbled. Instead they only showed us how incompetent Scott is without her, and how easily he can be driven to be dishonorable and petty as soon as he is ALMOST about to have to actually compete for her, or for anything with the X-Men really. The show's writers usually state that we "know" where Cyclops feel from, but that's a cop out; every TV adaptation picks and chooses continuity from original comics, movies, Ultimate, even prior shows. One can only decide how to feel about things from what is provided. The only reasonable out is that the depressed, esteem-lacking Cyclops would consciously or subconsciously gloss over his strengths and obsess about his failures, which is what Frost was shown.

The theory that Frost was envious of Jean being the object of Scott's desire was batted around quite a lot. Wishing she was the women Scott obsessed about after a year to the point of near suicide (or at least to the point of obvious depression). The dilemma in that theory is that if Cyclops suddenly abandoned such obsession, how could Frost logically expect to be that object of desire forever, if all it took to sway him after a year was her? Relationships are rarely logical, I suppose. I just haven't been in many to tell. I was told by one or two female fans in prior topics that it wasn't hard to imagine Frost being envious of the fact that even after a year without word Scott hadn't given up hope on Jean. Insipid OXYGEN NETWORK films have been made out of much less.

Making Logan Jean's "one true love" would be pretty lame. Or maybe, GASP, the relationship with Logan blows up in Jean's face and she finds that the tough, rebellious biker guy with the claws doesn't make such a good boyfriend after all, that might be fun to watch. Maybe if they go for it and have Jean dump Scott for Logan, Scott might get in a parting shot at her: "I hope you think Logan's still interesting when he disappears for days or weeks at a time for whatever reason and doesn't stop to say goodbye or even leave you a note." Of course, if Jean did dump Scott for Logan and then got mad at Scott for dating Emma, she'd still come off as a hypocrite, but I digress.

I sort of doubt it as no one was willing to mention the fact that Logan gave Cyclops the, "Yer either with us or not with us" an episode after he stormed off for hours or days to Canada over a bad dream, and a few episodes before he would do so again. The second time Logan all but deliberately endangered rescuing Christy by keeping the X-Men out of it when he clearly needed extra help; fortunately Mystique was on hand. It was part of my aforementioned statement that even his mistakes in the end never mattered, because the situation would resolve itself. If Logan being too bull-headed to bring back up backfired, someone always tagged along. If it was failing to kill Master Mold in the womb, it didn't matter because he could always stab a console later. And so on. In fact the only X-Man who seemed to often poke at Logan's leadership failings was....Frost. The mole. Kitty did, but only in good humored wisecracks, akin to Robin occasionally having a joke at Batman's expense.

Because Cyclops is never allowed to upstage Wolverine.

In Season 1 he usually wasn't allowed to be right when Wolverine was wrong. Even trusting Frost didn't count because Future Logan basically told Future Xavier to tell that to Present Logan, so in effect Logan told himself. Wolverine certainly played Cyclops at a higher standard than everyone else. To be fair, thought, while Cyclops wasn't allowed to upstage Wolverine, Nightcrawler was. His episodes were all good, he always got a good action sequence, he got a critical romantic subplot, and he was fleshed out and sympathetic. For all my criticisms of how Season 1 handled Cyclops, I have nothing but applause for Nightcrawler.

I kind of preferred Rogue when she had Ms. Marvel's powers. But then again, that was the Rogue I grew up with, so I'm biased towards that version to the powered down versions.

I think Grey DeLisle (Janet Pym in Ultimate Avengers 1 & 2, Sif in Hulk Vs. Thor) could probably a fine job as Ms. Marvel/Carol Danvers. I wouldn't be against having Jennifer Hale (who already voices Jean) do Carol either.

I've never been the biggest fan of Ms. Marvel and while I know Rogue had "her powers" for the longest time, I have liked how Evolution and W&TXM have placed greater focus on Rogue's genuine powers, not on her essentially trying to be the Wonder Woman of the X-Men. Besides, Rogue's cheap enough. One touch and she can beat anyone...even Magneto or Juggernaut.

Now I know this is a little off topic, but I noticed in a few different threads (including this one) a certain level of... disdain towards certain comic canon or 'default' couples. I cannot help but ask - why? These couples have lasted for decades in comics, so there must be something there that works, right?

There are many reasons. Some comic couples may be disliked or have earned contempt through mishandled stories or sheer length of time. One character of a couple may not be liked. The circumstances of the coupling could have been inconvenient or uninspired (at the time). Another reason is some fans don't mind being surprised and don't mind a surprise in a TV show.

I can personally attest to rarely liking Jean Grey as a character, which usually has effected my appreciation of the Scott/Jean romance. It's odd since I've come to like Scott, but it is what it is. It's possible to write Jean in a way in which I can like her more, but it isn't easy. Frost, on the other hand, I found far more interesting, if only because Cyclops has been told to be a sweet nice guy for ages and he almost never handles it right. Frost was all but telling him to stop letting Logan or Gambit types walk all over him and revel in his inner jerk, and it can work for him. I even had some fondness for the very brief fling Scott in the comics had with Colleen Wing from the DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON; if only because it helped remind people that Scott did know judo. That was also his only non-psychic girlfriend.

Colossus/Kitty has yet to show up in ANY alternate medium, though, so I can't imagine anyone who is tired of it. Age differences can always be fudged on TV.

1610 is the designation for the Ultimate Universe.....Ultimate Storm..thats who I was referring to..

I see. I didn't know the Ultimate universe designation off the top of my head. Thanks.

 

[Panthro]

Agreed. Most other X-Men shows have had at least one Beast centered episode within the first 26. Hopefully he gets more to do in Season 2.

Of course, Dark Beast has never been animated, and he's connected to Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse...

Fingers crossed.

The 90's FF cartoon only aired in syndication so it was able to avoid many network rules on violence. But, yes, it did help when a brawl is taking place between two "monster" looking opponents. To be fair, beyond Wolverine not being able to slice people (on camera at least), the censors haven't been too harsh on the show. There were a few decent "crunch" moments. I just think some of the storyboarding for some of the action could be a tad better.

Speaking of story boarding, didn't some of these artists also work on the DCAU shows?

I sort of doubt that will happen. On the other hand, something has to happen in Season 2 to avoid repeating the same plot formula of Season 1. I don't think Johnson, Kyle, Yost, Fine and company want to be THAT obvious. I expect something to change up expectations.

You're probably right.

To be honest it would have been fun if Frost tried to sway Cyclops into joining the Hellfire Club at the end of Season 1 for a moment or two along those lines. "I may have been a mole, but I was the only one who cared about you the moment Logan came along. At least here you wouldn't be under his shadow, constantly pitied or loathed by former friends."

The Last Temptation of Cyclops - directed by Martin Scorsese.

It became moot once Frost turned against the Club anyway, a feat Selene at least attributed to her getting "too close" to the X-Men in general and Cyclops in particular. One could argue that Cyclops' feat of managing to melt Frost's heart enough for her to step up and sacrifice herself for the greater good was what really saved the future, at least from Master Mold; the irony is Cyclops wasn't deliberately doing so and barely seemed notice her passing with Jean around.

That cad.

Because in the end, the best spectacle in the universe isn't as good if the characters aren't as fleshed so you care about them.

So true.

Redeeming Cyclops? Yeah. Not impossible, but tough. If they pull it off, they'll have earned their props.

It's amazing sometimes that Cyclops endures as a mainstay at all, since he often seems to get the short end of the stick.

You sure contributed this time around!

I tried, I really did. I wonder where VileOne is... I keep expecting him to pop up and post something.

Indeed, that was the one major failing of Episode 20, "Breakdown". That was the show's biggest chance to show us from where Cyclops had fallen in his grief for Jean, and they fumbled. Instead they only showed us how incompetent Scott is without her, and how easily he can be driven to be dishonorable and petty as soon as he is ALMOST about to have to actually compete for her, or for anything with the X-Men really. The show's writers usually state that we "know" where Cyclops feel from, but that's a cop out; every TV adaptation picks and chooses continuity from original comics, movies, Ultimate, even prior shows. One can only decide how to feel about things from what is provided. The only reasonable out is that the depressed, esteem-lacking Cyclops would consciously or subconsciously gloss over his strengths and obsess about his failures, which is what Frost was shown.

They really did drop the ball there. And it is a huge cop out, the whole 'you know where he fell from'. I call that taking your comic book mythos for granted. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear the writers were morbidly obsessed with making Cyclops look bad. I think the fallen hero angle actually ended up working better for Warren/Angel/Archangel.

Well, not everyone liked the way Cycke turned out in this series. You can find a long list of complaints here in a thread fittingly called "God, Just Kill Him Already!" - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0772145/board/nest/135173476

I know IMDB's not the safest place to travel, but I have to give credit to this particular IMDB board for keeping their focus on the show. And the posters did make some good point herein.

The theory that Frost was envious of Jean being the object of Scott's desire was batted around quite a lot. Wishing she was the women Scott obsessed about after a year to the point of near suicide (or at least to the point of obvious depression). The dilemma in that theory is that if Cyclops suddenly abandoned such obsession, how could Frost logically expect to be that object of desire forever, if all it took to sway him after a year was her? Relationships are rarely logical, I suppose. I just haven't been in many to tell. I was told by one or two female fans in prior topics that it wasn't hard to imagine Frost being envious of the fact that even after a year without word Scott hadn't given up hope on Jean. Insipid OXYGEN NETWORK films have been made out of much less.

And again it really just doesn't seem to fit Frost's character.

I sort of doubt it as no one was willing to mention the fact that Logan gave Cyclops the, "Yer either with us or not with us" an episode after he stormed off for hours or days to Canada over a bad dream, and a few episodes before he would do so again.

Again, you're probably right.

In Season 1 he usually wasn't allowed to be right when Wolverine was wrong.

At this point I really don't expect that to change. I hope it does, but I'm keeping those hopes low.

Even trusting Frost didn't count because Future Logan basically told Future Xavier to tell that to Present Logan, so in effect Logan told himself. Wolverine certainly played Cyclops at a higher standard than everyone else. To be fair, thought, while Cyclops wasn't allowed to upstage Wolverine, Nightcrawler was. His episodes were all good, he always got a good action sequence, he got a critical romantic subplot, and he was fleshed out and sympathetic. For all my criticisms of how Season 1 handled Cyclops, I have nothing but applause for Nightcrawler.

Thank God for Nightcrawler.

I've never been the biggest fan of Ms. Marvel

Ms. Marvel doesn't seem to have many fans. I think she's ended up being one of those characters who is the equivalent of an actress who gets by on looks more than anything else - and it probably doesn't help that she looks like every straight man's dirty fantasy.

and while I know Rogue had "her powers" for the longest time, I have liked how Evolution and W&TXM have placed greater focus on Rogue's genuine powers, not on her essentially trying to be the Wonder Woman of the X-Men. Besides, Rogue's cheap enough. One touch and she can beat anyone...even Magneto or Juggernaut.

Well to each their own.

There are many reasons. Some comic couples may be disliked or have earned contempt through mishandled stories or sheer length of time. One character of a couple may not be liked. The circumstances of the coupling could have been inconvenient or uninspired (at the time). Another reason is some fans don't mind being surprised and don't mind a surprise in a TV show.

I never got the Lance/Kitty thing on Evolution. The Cyclops/Rogue bit was interesting though, and I still wonder if that concept could have worked in the comics. I was watching the Evolution Christmas special one night on You-Tube and I found it funny when Jean was glaring at Rogue for giving Scott a christmas gift. I can only imagine what would have happened if Cycke & Rogue had actually dated in that series (Rogue might have found herself on the wrong end of an angry teen Phoenix).

I can personally attest to rarely liking Jean Grey as a character, which usually has effected my appreciation of the Scott/Jean romance. It's odd since I've come to like Scott, but it is what it is.

Because of Evolution and Emma encouraging him to embrace his inner bastard?

I even had some fondness for the very brief fling Scott in the comics had with Colleen Wing from the DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON; if only because it helped remind people that Scott did know judo. That was also his only non-psychic girlfriend.

You know that could make a good joke for season 2, poking fun at the recurring theme of Scott being attracted to telepaths (and vice versa). You could even work in a reference to Psylocke trying to seduce him in the 90s comics by having her make a quick pass at him and either he could grumble "Why do the Telepaths always come after me?" or Iceman could go up to him and say "Dude, what is it with you and telepaths?" Just a thought.

Colossus/Kitty has yet to show up in ANY alternate medium, though, so I can't imagine anyone who is tired of it. Age differences can always be fudged on TV.

They could say she's 16-17 and just looks younger than she actually is while setting her against an 18-19 year old Colossus. Let the metal man have some love!

I have to admit I've never read any of the Ultimates stuff, so I can't comment on Ultimate Storm.

 

[The Phoenix]

I would love to see more of jean I have allways been a fan of the Phoenix.So since emma got rid of the phoenix forse does that mean jean is going to be weaker?

 

[Dread]

Speaking of story boarding, didn't some of these artists also work on the DCAU shows?

I think so, although to be fair not all DCAU shows were storyboarded equally, or even every episode. It took a while to build to JLU level.

It's amazing sometimes that Cyclops endures as a mainstay at all, since he often seems to get the short end of the stick.

Grant Morrison once mentioned something to the effect of that Cyclops' visor makes him memorable and thus why he has endured. When Grant was doing his NEW X-MEN run he deliberately chose team members who were symbolically distinctive (which was just justification for giving Emma Frost her "secondary mutation" to turn into diamond, so she would stand out more alongside Jean and Xavier). Even someone who barely knows the X-Men may recall the guy with the visor who shoots lasers from it. Much as Wolverine is known for his claws, Colossus his metal design, etc. It goes back to the robot Gort from the original 1950's THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, but there you go.

In addition to that, he's been part of that founding class and that also helps. He's been part of the X-Men since day one. Cartoon wise, out of the five founders, I would argue Angel/Archangel has had the roughest time. Cyclops and Beast end up mainstays in every X-Men cartoon so far. Iceman had Spider-Friends and popped up a bit in this show and Evolution. Jean is usually not far behind Cyclops in a show; in fact WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN has had the least Jean of any X-show. But Angel, until WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, was rarely featured beyond an episode or two. He appeared more than Iceman in the 90's show, but that's about it.

If written properly he is a compelling character. He usually struggles to handle a normal civilian life, and his mutation makes such a life almost impossible (an angle that isn't brought up enough, but seriously; besides entry level retail positions or rock stardom, is there ANY normal job in which you can be allowed to wear ruby red shades all the time). He's introverted and struggles to express himself, hence the destructive power and his thing for psychics. He's often been a leader or tried to be but like many leaders there is self doubt and there is heaps of pressure. Many times this can be stiff but it depends on how you handle it. I thought X-MEN EVOLUTION handled him extremely well; I was hardly a Cyclops fan before that show made him sympathetic and relatable. Back in 2000 I was all Wolverine.

The writers of WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN had a compelling angle to Cyclops here; take away the two people who matter to him to the most and then cover the trials and tribulations. The problem wasn't that premise. The problem was the execution wasn't always as good as it could have been. At times they tried so hard to make him seem flawed that Scott became buried in them, akin to the Sentry in Marvel comics. They also didn't feel they needed to show us where Cyclops fell from, which was another mistake. It is hard to see how far someone has fallen into despair when you never get a glimpse of the perch they were on. Johnson noted he wanted to keep Scott a bit more muted instead of having he and Logan have "a pissing contest" every episode, but at least then we'd know Scott had a backbone. But that's all my personal taste, of course.

I tried, I really did. I wonder where VileOne is... I keep expecting him to pop up and post something.

Vile is a busy guy. He does some work for the Toonzone.net website, doing interview stuff with pros for them sometimes.

They really did drop the ball there. And it is a huge cop out, the whole 'you know where he fell from'. I call that taking your comic book mythos for granted. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear the writers were morbidly obsessed with making Cyclops look bad. I think the fallen hero angle actually ended up working better for Warren/Angel/Archangel.

Well, not everyone liked the way Cycke turned out in this series. You can find a long list of complaints here in a thread fittingly called "God, Just Kill Him Already!" - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0772145/board/nest/135173476

I know IMDB's not the safest place to travel, but I have to give credit to this particular IMDB board for keeping their focus on the show. And the posters did make some good point herein.

I read that IMDB slate of postings and while it did seem that quite a few people didn't care for Cyclops' portrayal, there were others who liked it or found the critic being too harsh.

There also are reviewers at TV.com, and "Excessive Force" so far got the most reviews out of most single episodes so far. http://www.tv.com/wolverine-and-the...ode/1232923/summary.html?tag=ep_guide;summary

My own opinions about how I felt Season 1 handled Scott have been clear. Objectively speaking, of course, the audience reaction seems to have been split. For every one who never liked Cyclops anyway, or for those who criticize his handling here, there seems to be someone who goes, "I was never interested in Cyke until now" or an opinion I see more frequently online, "at least this Cyclops isn't boring". At the very least, it's gotten the audience talking and debating which is what writers want anyway.

And again it really just doesn't seem to fit Frost's character.

Frost's character here, as with anything, is dependent more on what is shown than how she was in the comics. To be honest, Frost wasn't anywhere close to being as formerly wicked as she was in the comics in this show. Even her act of causing the destruction of the X-Men was not for some nefarious purpose; it was following the ideals of the Inner Circle to stop the threat of the Phoenix. She didn't count on that Circle deciding to try to control the Phoenix as a weapon rather than stop it, nor to fall for Cyclops in particular and the ideals of the X-Men in general. Any past as a villain beyond that was mildly mentioned but not on screen.

Frost's interest in Cyclops was clear from the start; she was the only one who would usually talk to him, or even attempt to talk to him beyond complain about what a loser he is; subtle Season 1 was not. Quite why, on the other hand, was more subtle. But I guess affection is. Through Cyclops she experienced what she had done to the X-Men, but quite why that would make her fall for him is unknown. Maybe she felt he was manipulated by stodgy old men only to be cast aside when inconvenient much as she knew others could be treated in the Circle. Maybe she just liked his abs. Who knows. We can all speculate and that's again what the writers surely wanted. Unlike Cyclops, Frost was handled well as a strong heroine, or anti-heroine, so it's a worthy debate.

At this point I really don't expect that to change. I hope it does, but I'm keeping those hopes low.

I can relate to that.

Thank God for Nightcrawler.

Indeed. This Nightcrawler was awesome.

Ms. Marvel doesn't seem to have many fans. I think she's ended up being one of those characters who is the equivalent of an actress who gets by on looks more than anything else - and it probably doesn't help that she looks like every straight man's dirty fantasy.

Originally she was sort of a post-Women's Lib heroine, but since she has become a bit stock honestly. At least 25,000 people usually care enough to keep reading her book.

I never got the Lance/Kitty thing on Evolution. The Cyclops/Rogue bit was interesting though, and I still wonder if that concept could have worked in the comics. I was watching the Evolution Christmas special one night on You-Tube and I found it funny when Jean was glaring at Rogue for giving Scott a christmas gift. I can only imagine what would have happened if Cycke & Rogue had actually dated in that series (Rogue might have found herself on the wrong end of an angry teen Phoenix).

I learned to like Lance/Kitty at Evolution; the only stumbling block was the idea of Kitty falling for a guy who when they first met tried to kill her and her parents when he didn't get his way, and had the "my hand is a manacle" method of making a woman follow along. The writing in general improved over time from the first 13 episodes, but it always did seem awkward, at least until Lance proved to me more of an anti-hero than outright menace when it counted. He clearly had the biggest conscience out of the Brotherhood.

The problem with anyone dating Rogue is they can't really touch her. In EVOLUTION, as I noted at other times, Jean was given more spunk and was more willing to flaunt her advantages than previous versions in comics or cartoons, when she was merely Sweet & Innocent. She was a Big Woman on Campus in Evolution, a soccer athlete who merrily dated the star quarterback for the school. Some compared her to Rachael on FRIENDS in that she rarely seemed to notice Cyclops (Ross) unless someone else did. She never seemed to admit Scott was "cute" until Kitty gushed about it. She never seemed to think of him beyond a friend until Taryn was aggressively dating him, or Rogue pined for him. Scott, of course, deep down always wanted Jean and that usually got in the way of him dating anyone else. I'm not sure who stated it in an interview, either Johnson or Kirkland, but I recall reading somewhere on Toonzone a statement from one of the Evo writers to the effect that having Scott & Rogue be "friends" on that show made sense because they were similar. They both had bad childhoods, and they both had mutations that, one way or another, they couldn't control and effected their daily lives.

It's also worth noting that in the end of the series, Cyclops and Rogue are standing next to each other as the adult X-Men while Jean is bursting as Phoenix.

In the comics, there was quite an age gap between them, and when Rogue came along, Cyclops was already knee deep in Phoenix/Maddie Pryor stuff.

Because of Evolution and Emma encouraging him to embrace his inner bastard?

I find Frost as usually more interesting. It takes less work to make her interesting than Jean I think.

You know that could make a good joke for season 2, poking fun at the recurring theme of Scott being attracted to telepaths (and vice versa). You could even work in a reference to Psylocke trying to seduce him in the 90s comics by having her make a quick pass at him and either he could grumble "Why do the Telepaths always come after me?" or Iceman could go up to him and say "Dude, what is it with you and telepaths?" Just a thought.

That'd be cute.

They could say she's 16-17 and just looks younger than she actually is while setting her against an 18-19 year old Colossus. Let the metal man have some love!

There's no reason they can't be similar ages in a cartoon. You can fudge ages in cartoons.

I have to admit I've never read any of the Ultimates stuff, so I can't comment on Ultimate Storm.

Ultimate Storm is more an emo teenage former street punk than "goddess".

I would love to see more of jean I have allways been a fan of the Phoenix.So since emma got rid of the phoenix forse does that mean jean is going to be weaker?

I don't know. The Phoenix could always return. Even without it, Jean was always a formidable telepath and telekenetic, although in cartoons she does a LOT of fainting about something being too powerful. You could have made it a drinking game in the 90's series.

 

[Max Shrek]

Iceman had Spider-Friends and popped up a bit in this show and Evolution.

Iceman also got the by-far best episode of the 90s series. I'd argue he got more development and depth in that than the entire Spider-Friends/Evolution/Wolverine and the X-Men combined.

 

[Mystic]

More character development. Although I really like this series, I don't think we got to see enough of some of the other characters because it was very much centered on Wolverine. There's nothing wrong with that but come on, give the other characters some credit!

Can't wait for season 2!

 

[Panthro]

I think so, although to be fair not all DCAU shows were storyboarded equally, or even every episode. It took a while to build to JLU level.

One of the drawbacks to hand drawn animation pitted against budget & scheduling demands - you can see that in a lot of 80s and 90s cartoons, one episode will be really beautiful & detailed, and then the next could be mediocre at best or just outright terrible because it was rushed to be ready for airing.

Grant Morrison once mentioned something to the effect of that Cyclops' visor makes him memorable and thus why he has endured. When Grant was doing his NEW X-MEN run he deliberately chose team members who were symbolically distinctive (which was just justification for giving Emma Frost her "secondary mutation" to turn into diamond, so she would stand out more alongside Jean and Xavier). Even someone who barely knows the X-Men may recall the guy with the visor who shoots lasers from it. Much as Wolverine is known for his claws, Colossus his metal design, etc. It goes back to the robot Gort from the original 1950's THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, but there you go.

Hmm, never thought of that before.

In addition to that, he's been part of that founding class and that also helps. He's been part of the X-Men since day one. Cartoon wise, out of the five founders, I would argue Angel/Archangel has had the roughest time. Cyclops and Beast end up mainstays in every X-Men cartoon so far. Iceman had Spider-Friends and popped up a bit in this show and Evolution. Jean is usually not far behind Cyclops in a show; in fact WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN has had the least Jean of any X-show. But Angel, until WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, was rarely featured beyond an episode or two. He appeared more than Iceman in the 90's show, but that's about it.

I guess being a founder does help. I wonder if writers struggle to make Angel interesting, since the consensus seems to be that he didn't become interesting until he turned into Archangle in the 80s.

If written properly he is a compelling character. He usually struggles to handle a normal civilian life, and his mutation makes such a life almost impossible (an angle that isn't brought up enough, but seriously; besides entry level retail positions or rock stardom, is there ANY normal job in which you can be allowed to wear ruby red shades all the time). He's introverted and struggles to express himself, hence the destructive power and his thing for psychics. He's often been a leader or tried to be but like many leaders there is self doubt and there is heaps of pressure. Many times this can be stiff but it depends on how you handle it.

No argument here. I'm not good at expressing myself either, which is probably one of the reasons I've always had a soft spot for him.

I thought X-MEN EVOLUTION handled him extremely well; I was hardly a Cyclops fan before that show made him sympathetic and relatable. Back in 2000 I was all Wolverine.

I know I'm in the minority, but I've never been a Wolverine fan. I can't quite put my finger on it, but he just never clicked with me. And his being in more places than Multiple Man doesn't make him more endearing to me.

The writers of WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN had a compelling angle to Cyclops here; take away the two people who matter to him to the most and then cover the trials and tribulations. The problem wasn't that premise. The problem was the execution wasn't always as good as it could have been. At times they tried so hard to make him seem flawed that Scott became buried in them, akin to the Sentry in Marvel comics. They also didn't feel they needed to show us where Cyclops fell from, which was another mistake. It is hard to see how far someone has fallen into despair when you never get a glimpse of the perch they were on. Johnson noted he wanted to keep Scott a bit more muted instead of having he and Logan have "a pissing contest" every episode, but at least then we'd know Scott had a backbone. But that's all my personal taste, of course.

I'm inclined to agree - the "pissing contest" would have at least suggested he was trying to reassert himself. Perhaps flashbacks that showed Cyclops through the eyes of other characters might have helped show where he fell from. A little bit of info along the way instead of cramming it into one episode later in the game.

Vile is a busy guy. He does some work for the Toonzone.net website, doing interview stuff with pros for them sometimes.

I see. I just find that I miss seeing his posts in here, even though I usually disagree with him.

Frost's interest in Cyclops was clear from the start; she was the only one who would usually talk to him, or even attempt to talk to him beyond complain about what a loser he is; subtle Season 1 was not. Quite why, on the other hand, was more subtle. But I guess affection is. Through Cyclops she experienced what she had done to the X-Men, but quite why that would make her fall for him is unknown. Maybe she felt he was manipulated by stodgy old men only to be cast aside when inconvenient much as she knew others could be treated in the Circle. Maybe she just liked his abs. Who knows. We can all speculate and that's again what the writers surely wanted. Unlike Cyclops, Frost was handled well as a strong heroine, or anti-heroine, so it's a worthy debate.

I like the "manipulated by stodgy old men only to be cast aside when inconvenient" theory.

Originally she was sort of a post-Women's Lib heroine, but since she has become a bit stock honestly. At least 25,000 people usually care enough to keep reading her book.

Yeah, I knew that, but I think she's ended up being best known as 'the lady Rogue stole her other powers from'. I've read a few of her trade paperbacks, I don't think she's a bad character necessarily, but I don't see her breaking into the A-list any time soon.

I learned to like Lance/Kitty at Evolution; the only stumbling block was the idea of Kitty falling for a guy who when they first met tried to kill her and her parents when he didn't get his way, and had the "my hand is a manacle" method of making a woman follow along. The writing in general improved over time from the first 13 episodes, but it always did seem awkward, at least until Lance proved to me more of an anti-hero than outright menace when it counted. He clearly had the biggest conscience out of the Brotherhood.

In the bold - yeah, that made it a tough sell.

The problem with anyone dating Rogue is they can't really touch her. In EVOLUTION, as I noted at other times, Jean was given more spunk and was more willing to flaunt her advantages than previous versions in comics or cartoons, when she was merely Sweet & Innocent. She was a Big Woman on Campus in Evolution, a soccer athlete who merrily dated the star quarterback for the school. Some compared her to Rachael on FRIENDS in that she rarely seemed to notice Cyclops (Ross) unless someone else did. She never seemed to admit Scott was "cute" until Kitty gushed about it. She never seemed to think of him beyond a friend until Taryn was aggressively dating him, or Rogue pined for him. Scott, of course, deep down always wanted Jean and that usually got in the way of him dating anyone else.

I guess Scott only noticing or being interested in Jean (or Rogue) when other guys were interested in Jean (or Rogue) just wouldn't have worked as well.

I'm not sure who stated it in an interview, either Johnson or Kirkland, but I recall reading somewhere on Toonzone a statement from one of the Evo writers to the effect that having Scott & Rogue be "friends" on that show made sense because they were similar. They both had bad childhoods, and they both had mutations that, one way or another, they couldn't control and effected their daily lives.

It's also worth noting that in the end of the series, Cyclops and Rogue are standing next to each other as the adult X-Men while Jean is bursting as Phoenix.

Yeah, I noticed that, and remember reading that was a "hint" that they weren't done with that subplot. Another question mark for what season 5 could have been. I wonder sometimes though if Cyclops was meant to represent an "ideal" or "mirage" for Rogue to pine after, much like Charlie Brown pining after the little red headed girl or Peppermint Patty pining after Charlie Brown himself.

In the comics, there was quite an age gap between them, and when Rogue came along, Cyclops was already knee deep in Phoenix/Maddie Pryor stuff.

Yeah, that's true too. Cyclops hitting on jail bait would only have made his life and reputation worse. Plus that's Colossus's thing.

I find Frost as usually more interesting. It takes less work to make her interesting than Jean I think.

That reminds me of something Gregory Peck once said, how he found that playing heroic characters was harder than playing villains; he felt an actor had to work harder to make a hero or just regular every day nice guy interesting than a villain.

Ultimate Storm is more an emo teenage former street punk than "goddess".

Emo teen Storm? Yikes.

I don't know. The Phoenix could always return. Even without it, Jean was always a formidable telepath and telekenetic, although in cartoons she does a LOT of fainting about something being too powerful. You could have made it a drinking game in the 90's series.

I do have to concede the 90s series didn't make the best use of Jean's powers, something Evolution definitely did better.

 

[The Phoenix]

I have to agree with panthro they didnt make her look good when useing her powers in the 90's I thought she looked like she was shooting lightening from her forehead.They deffently did a good job in evolution I liked jean in that the only problem I had with jean in evolution was that she never used alot of power always a small amount because I mean she could of totally have beaten prof.x's son.

 

[Dread]

Iceman also got the by-far best episode of the 90s series. I'd argue he got more development and depth in that than the entire Spider-Friends/Evolution/Wolverine and the X-Men combined.

"Cold Comfort"? Yeah, it was a fine episode. One of the few not animated by AKOM that handled most of the 90's series, and they were known for cheap, rushed animation. Spider-Friends was a different kind of show, as was Evolution. In Spider-Friends, Bobby came off as a lovable dumb-ass, and some of his banter with Spider-Man was classic. In Evolution Bobby was usually seen as the "leader" of the New Recruits, filling in well for Spyke in most of Season 3.

"Cold Comfort" made Iceman more of a bitter ex-member than a juvenile delinquent, but he still had enough of a sense of humor and impulsive streak to attract Jubilee. I have a fondness for Spider-Friends being that I was a toddler when it was on, but yeah, that episode was good. Ever since, it's been rough for Iceman. He's shown up a bunch of times but rarely was explored as a character; he's just the upbeat ice-guy.

One of the drawbacks to hand drawn animation pitted against budget & scheduling demands - you can see that in a lot of 80s and 90s cartoons, one episode will be really beautiful & detailed, and then the next could be mediocre at best or just outright terrible because it was rushed to be ready for airing.

I didn't have any issues with the animation of WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN. It was usually consistent and well done.

I guess being a founder does help. I wonder if writers struggle to make Angel interesting, since the consensus seems to be that he didn't become interesting until he turned into Archangle in the 80s.

I thought W&TXM handled Angel well, handling all angles of him. He got to be a bit of a rich playboy, an optimistic hero, and then the bitter, twisted metal-winged Archangel. He tried to help the X-Men but eventually fell from grace, was tempted and corrupted by dark powers. He only really "starred" in one episode but he had enough development in a few that it worked well. My only quibble was how quickly the other X-Men seemed to give up on trying to sway him, but that's not his fault.

I know I'm in the minority, but I've never been a Wolverine fan. I can't quite put my finger on it, but he just never clicked with me. And his being in more places than Multiple Man doesn't make him more endearing to me.

I remember in the late 1990's WIZARD had a humor comic in one of their issues suggesting that Wolverine's real father was Multiple Man to explain it.

I'm a former Wolverine fan who grew up and I guess had "enough" of him. "Bad boy" types are always fun for many kids when they're younger, but after a while you grow up and have other standards or priorities for characters. Overexposure started to quickly get on my nerves by the time I was 19 or so. I started to appreciate the other characters more, especially Cyclops, and Wolverine is often a hog. Now it isn't "his" fault, but the fault of writers who play favorites too much with him, and have since about 1992. His origins and back-story have been needlessly messed with and he went from gritty underdog to someone who was capable of mauling characters he didn't have a right to maul.

In some ways Wolverine for me has become someone akin to Fonzie or Han Solo. In doses, as part of a team, or in the occasional solo story they're fine. But overload on him and he quickly can become as one note as many other characters he is compared to. I also learned to dislike how he would seem to "absorb" plot elements from other characters. Any character in the past knew him. He's since become almost whatever a story desires of him to be and it can ware thin.

I'm inclined to agree - the "pissing contest" would have at least suggested he was trying to reassert himself. Perhaps flashbacks that showed Cyclops through the eyes of other characters might have helped show where he fell from. A little bit of info along the way instead of cramming it into one episode later in the game.

One of my friends is re-watching the season and I saw episode 20 again. My opinion hasn't changed much but in that episode it is implied that Cyclops is subconsciously leading Frost on the memory tour. Therefore give his issues it is possible he glossed over stuff. Still, I don't think there was enough emphasis as to where Scott fell from. When Kitty seems to chew him out it isn't because he's not the leader, but because he was putting in no effort. I imagine it would have worked better had they not showed Cyclops as a completely incompetent X-Man before Jean showed up. If anything Jean should have helped him loosen up as a person, made him more complete as a person, not at X-Man. But it's done now.

I see. I just find that I miss seeing his posts in here, even though I usually disagree with him.

TheVileOne is cool. I usually disagree with him but in the end we all want good cartoons.

I like the "manipulated by stodgy old men only to be cast aside when inconvenient" theory.

Future Xavier was particularly cold to him in some segments.

I guess Scott only noticing or being interested in Jean (or Rogue) when other guys were interested in Jean (or Rogue) just wouldn't have worked as well.

In Evolution, Scott didn't seem to make a move on Rogue either. Occasionally in Season 1 when Rogue hinted that Scott was "a charmer", he would deny it. To be fair, the fact that Duncan Matthews, the school jock, bully, and eventual bigot, liked Jean did make Scott jealous as well. What Evolution lacked in tight serial storytelling or whatnot it made up for in characterization and development. WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN is almost the opposite; the story line is VERY serial, there is a lot of action and complications, but they almost only do as much characterization as they can "get away with", least in season 1.

Possibly. The two always had chemistry together in that show at least. They would open up to each other quite often.

Yeah, that's true too. Cyclops hitting on jail bait would only have made his life and reputation worse. Plus that's Colossus's thing.

Hey, Colossus denied sleeping with jail-bait many times in the comics when Kitty freely offered. He did make out with her once or twice, though...

That reminds me of something Gregory Peck once said, how he found that playing heroic characters was harder than playing villains; he felt an actor had to work harder to make a hero or just regular every day nice guy interesting than a villain.

Interesting statement. Yes, it can be hard making heroes or "everymen" interesting sometimes. More effort usually needs to be put into Jean than Frost.

I do have to concede the 90s series didn't make the best use of Jean's powers, something Evolution definitely did better.

The later cartoons have had better "effects" for powers usually. The movies helped with those depictions, too. Everything looked like bright pastel energy in the 90's show.

I have to agree with panthro they didnt make her look good when useing her powers in the 90's I thought she looked like she was shooting lightening from her forehead.They deffently did a good job in evolution I liked jean in that the only problem I had with jean in evolution was that she never used alot of power always a small amount because I mean she could of totally have beaten prof.x's son.

I still don't know why Legion needed an episode in the last 9 of Evolution. It could have been spent on someone more established. But, yeah, Jean did a lot of fainting in the 90's show.

But, to be fair, Sue Storm's force-fields are always being battered or whatnot in Fantastic Four shows too. It is probably just a bit of a TV trope I guess.

 

[Max Shrek]

"Cold Comfort"? Yeah, it was a fine episode. One of the few not animated by AKOM that handled most of the 90's series, and they were known for cheap, rushed animation. Spider-Friends was a different kind of show, as was Evolution. In Spider-Friends, Bobby came off as a lovable dumb-ass, and some of his banter with Spider-Man was classic. In Evolution Bobby was usually seen as the "leader" of the New Recruits, filling in well for Spyke in most of Season 3.

I love the dynamic established between Xavier/Scott/Bobby. Scott (and the others) had to work twice as hard to get half the slack Xavier would cut Bobby and Scott resented him for that. It was a fascinating thread and made all three of their characters strong IMO.

 

[Panthro]

"Cold Comfort"? Yeah, it was a fine episode. One of the few not animated by AKOM that handled most of the 90's series, and they were known for cheap, rushed animation. Spider-Friends was a different kind of show, as was Evolution. In Spider-Friends, Bobby came off as a lovable dumb-ass, and some of his banter with Spider-Man was classic. In Evolution Bobby was usually seen as the "leader" of the New Recruits, filling in well for Spyke in most of Season 3.

"Cold Comfort" made Iceman more of a bitter ex-member than a juvenile delinquent, but he still had enough of a sense of humor and impulsive streak to attract Jubilee. I have a fondness for Spider-Friends being that I was a toddler when it was on, but yeah, that episode was good. Ever since, it's been rough for Iceman. He's shown up a bunch of times but rarely was explored as a character; he's just the upbeat ice-guy.

Haven't seen that episode in years, but I do remember one specific line of Iceman's when he's arguing with Cyclops - "I chose to think for myself."

I didn't have any issues with the animation of WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN. It was usually consistent and well done.

Consistency is nice.

I thought W&TXM handled Angel well, handling all angles of him. He got to be a bit of a rich playboy, an optimistic hero, and then the bitter, twisted metal-winged Archangel. He tried to help the X-Men but eventually fell from grace, was tempted and corrupted by dark powers. He only really "starred" in one episode but he had enough development in a few that it worked well. My only quibble was how quickly the other X-Men seemed to give up on trying to sway him, but that's not his fault.

No argument here.

I remember in the late 1990's WIZARD had a humor comic in one of their issues suggesting that Wolverine's real father was Multiple Man to explain it.

Hehehehehe, ah Wizard...

I'm a former Wolverine fan who grew up and I guess had "enough" of him. "Bad boy" types are always fun for many kids when they're younger, but after a while you grow up and have other standards or priorities for characters. Overexposure started to quickly get on my nerves by the time I was 19 or so. I started to appreciate the other characters more, especially Cyclops, and Wolverine is often a hog. Now it isn't "his" fault, but the fault of writers who play favorites too much with him, and have since about 1992. His origins and back-story have been needlessly messed with and he went from gritty underdog to someone who was capable of mauling characters he didn't have a right to maul.

Good points, all.

In some ways Wolverine for me has become someone akin to Fonzie or Han Solo. In doses, as part of a team, or in the occasional solo story they're fine. But overload on him and he quickly can become as one note as many other characters he is compared to. I also learned to dislike how he would seem to "absorb" plot elements from other characters. Any character in the past knew him. He's since become almost whatever a story desires of him to be and it can ware thin.

Funny, that reminds me of a review I read for the Past Directions episode at the Marvel Animation Age website - Wolverine is not a bad character, not is his voice actor, Steven Blum, to blame. This is merely a case of Fonzie syndrome. Wolverine, like Fonzarelli, is a scene-stealing sideman but a horrific failure when he is shunted into the role of leading man.

Of course, the reviews for Wolvie & the X-Men at that site are horribly uneven and inconsistent. One review, the reviewer claims Cyclops is the "breakout star" of the show, then in the next review writes that Emma Frost is the "breakout star". That same reviewer wrote of Breakdown "This version of Cyclops is angry, fractured and not the leader; but he is still unmistakably Cyclops." I respectfully disagree.


This reminds me of a Japanese Anime series I followed, a 1980s OVA series called Bubblegum Crisis (commonly referred to as BGC), later remade as a TV series in the late 90s: BGC Tokyo 2040. Despite that silly title, it was a cyber punk sci-fi adventure series that dealt with a group of vigilante women in fancy combat armor (meca or mecha) fighting dangerous cyborgs vaguely similar to the Replicants from "Blade Runner". In this 4 woman group there was an obligatory rebellious bad girl, Priss Asagiri, big mouthed, bad tempered biker and singer with a penchant for seeking revenge (which dominated most of the 80s OVA). In other words, she played the Wolverine role, but not nearly as endearing, not in the original version anyway. Like Wolverine, or Fonzie or Han Solo, she worked better as part of the team rather than as the lead, but her popularity with fans had her shoved into the limelight a lot in the original version, and those installments as a result don't hold up quite as well from a story telling standpoint. The TV remake had the decency to downplay her as a lead in favor of her teammates.

But enough about that.

One of my friends is re-watching the season and I saw episode 20 again. My opinion hasn't changed much but in that episode it is implied that Cyclops is subconsciously leading Frost on the memory tour. Therefore give his issues it is possible he glossed over stuff. Still, I don't think there was enough emphasis as to where Scott fell from. When Kitty seems to chew him out it isn't because he's not the leader, but because he was putting in no effort. I imagine it would have worked better had they not showed Cyclops as a completely incompetent X-Man before Jean showed up. If anything Jean should have helped him loosen up as a person, made him more complete as a person, not at X-Man. But it's done now.

I agree, the way they did it really undermined the credibility behind the whole 'watch him struggle to be the hero we know he is' because, apparently he was never much of a hero to begin with. Having a crappy doesn't make him sympathetic, having a crappy life alone doesn't make any character automatically sympathetic (what X-Men characters haven't had crappy lives?) it's what they do despite the tragedy that determines whether or not they're sympathetic. If Cyclops had stood up to Magneto & defeated him on his own gumption, that would have been heroic & sympathetic. If Cyclops had gotten the others into a huddle and pitched them the plan to defeat Magneto utilizing each memb'ers particular power, that would have been heroic & sympathetic. Having Jean basically wrestle with Magneto for the bus & encouraging Cycke to zap him is neither heroic nor sympathetic. For all we know, Jean was the one really calling the shots and she telepathically used Cyclops as a mouth piece to filter the plans.

And portraying Cyclops as both an incompetent wimp and later an insecure super-jerk doesn't do Jean any favors either, as it just makes you wonder about her taste in men, to say nothing of questioning Xavier's choice of henchmen or how the team got by as long as it did with this putz in charge. Sure Wolverine was a jerk for hitting on Jean when she clearly had a boyfriend, but what Cyclops did was much, much worse. And the whole Jean making Wolverine promise not to fight Scott felt like it came out of some bad high school soap opera. Or amateur fan fiction.

TheVileOne is cool. I usually disagree with him but in the end we all want good cartoons.

As long as we can all agree on that, there is hope for the world.

Interesting statement. Yes, it can be hard making heroes or "everymen" interesting sometimes. More effort usually needs to be put into Jean than Frost.

Superman often seems to struggle in this department.

 

[Max Shrek]

Haven't seen that episode in years, but I do remember one specific line of Iceman's when he's arguing with Cyclops - "I chose to think for myself."

Yeah, there was some excellent stuff in that episode. They really thought it through and didn't just go, "Let's put in Iceman for the sake of Iceman!" They thought of what's the essential core to Iceman's character, how they could adapt that and stretch it while still making it true to the core idea and how that dynamic can work with current dynamics on the show and make the "cast" based on that (Xavier as the guy who coddled him, Cyclops as the guy who wouldn't put up with him, Beast as his friend who was in the middle, Jubliee as the newcomer with sympathy for her and Wolverine as the newcomer who's similar to him but at the same time, has no sympathy). They really went the extra mile in terms of writing and as Dread says, the animation was above-standard as well. My favorite episode. It's an ideal any show, including WATXM, could live up to.

 

[TheVileOne]

Hey guys nice to know that you all are thinking of me. I was actually covering D23 for Toon Zone over the weekend and since

Spoiler

Toon Zone is actually paying me.

that sort of took priority as of late.

One thing I wanted to add though I expect for Storm in season 2 will feature some development of the relationship that was started between herself and Angel in the first season. Now I say this realizing I've been off about the way I interpreted certain relationships in the show before (coughroguewolverinecough), but I can at the very least say that there was a close bond forged between Angel/Storm in the first season and Storm seemed more closely affected and hurt by Angel's turn to the dark side than the other team members. So I expect there to be some sort of development or climax because by the end of the first season, Angel is still "evil" and in the clutches of Sinister AND Apocalypse. So one can definitely assume that will figure into season 2.

Also, as much as I would love to get into a debate with you guys, I think anything else I would have to say right now would be redundant . I think we've all done expressed our views on the show, and as of now, there's not much else I can add. Also, while the show is still sort of finishing up season 1 right now, once season 2 gets going we'll have a lot more to talk about here.

I'm also still waiting on the Volume 1-3 set from Lionsgate.