When Did 616 Hulk Start Killing?

[Kurosawa]

That Last Avengers Story was an alternate Earth. Thank God.

Like every other character nowadays, Hulk has to kill to be "kewl" with the bloodthirsty kiddies.

 

[The Question]

I don't think that's it. I think it's just for the sense of logic. I mean, has The Hulk ever seemed like someone who would have some major moral code? Not to me. Hell, during the Infinity Gauntlet, Adam Warlock asked Wolverine and The Hulk to kill Thanos the first chance they had, and they both agreed, so it's hardly unprecidented. I think it really depends which personality you're talking about:



Bruce: Probably wouldn't kill anybody unless he was put into a situation where he had no choice.

Savage Hulk: If he was in a fight or having one of his temper tantrums, he'd probably kill some people by accident. But he wouldn't set out to and he'd feel really bad about it if they were innocents.

Joe Fixit: He'd kill a man in a fair fight. Or if he thought he was going to start a fair fight. Or if he bothered him. Or if there was a woman involved. Or if he was getting paid. Mostly when he's getting paid. Joe's a jackass without much in terms of moral fiber. Hell, he worked for the mob for a while.

Mindless Hulk: This one's the one I'd expect to have the highest body count. He's the nastyest personality that's ever gotten out. He's basically nothing but basic animal instinct and anger. If he's pissed off or feels threatened, he'll lash out at anything that moves. This is the personality you're usually dealing with when The Hulk's on a major rampage.

Devil Hulk: He's never gotten out before, but if he ever does, the body count would be huge. He'd kill and rape and canabalize people just for the hell of it.

 

[IronSpidy]

I find it very odd that Hulk has started killing innocent. I dont think its a very good move at all...

 

[CAPT. MARVEL]

Seems to me they're turning him into Ult. Hulk, this is his schtick.

true

This really bothers me though. The whole point of the Ultimate U is for a new take on things and it seems lately like a bunch of the writers are trying to take both incarnations of a character into the same direction. Ult. Scarlet Witch doesn't need to start wearing the same costume as 616. 616 Hulk doesn't need to start killing people like Ult. Hulk. Leave 616 Cap as a liberal peak-human and Ult Cap as a super-human conservative. The differences are what makes it interesting!!

 

[The Question]

I find it very odd that Hulk has started killing innocent. I dont think its a very good move at all...

Well, It's probably not the first time in continuity. There has been more than one occasion where he's completely lost it and went rampaging through a populated area. Statistically, some people would have died there.

 

[IronSpidy]

True, but that was some time ago.

 

[Cyclops]

I remember "Professor Hulk" attacking several foes quite fatally. He literally beat a Loki-wannabe to death in the painted graphic novel "Tales to Astonish" back in the mid-1990s, and I remember him impaling some cyborg guy with his own spear even earlier than that.

Let's not forget that Hulk's been steadily growing in size over the years, starting at slightly shorter than Yao Ming and now tops 12 feet tall with ease, so it would stand to reason that he's much stronger now than ever before...

But I think the real issue is that.. well, isn't Daniel Way writing the Hulk now? And since when has Daniel Way ever given a crap about the history of a character?

Edit: Oh... Bendis. Serves me right for trying to have input on current comics when I've been unable to get any for three months...

 

[Mr. Green]

Alright, here is the timeline.

Pre-PAD Hulk has killed a total of 0 innocents.

During PAD's run all the way from 1987 to the end of the 90s, Hulk has
killed a total of 0 innocents.

From the end of PAD's run, there were a few writers until Paul Jenkins took over (one of which was Joe Casey). During that time Hulk has killed 0 innocents.

During Paul Jenkins' run Hulk killed 0 innocents.

During Bruce Jones' run, which I think rocked, the public backlashes against Hulk because there is video footage of Hulk killing a child in one of his rampages. Turns out he was just framed. When Doc Samson was asked about what he believed he said, "When was the last time you saw the Hulk kill anybody, let alone a kid?" (vol. 2, #36) Again 0 innocents killed in Jones' run.

After that, PAD took over again for a short time and the Hulk killed 0 innocents during this run.

Daniel Way took over during the Planet Hulk prelude (which sucked), and still, 0 innocents were killed.

In the Fantastic Four issues (#'s 533 - 535) Hulk goes out of his mind after he is exposed to a gamma bomb blast. I could see where they could get away with saying that he killed innocents here (and they DID say that in NA: Illuminati) but in the issues nothing is shown that would lead me to believe that innocents were killed during his rampage anyway.

Even if did show innocents killed, Iron Man said "How many this time?" Like it happens every week or something.

It is crap to say that Hulk has killed innocent people in the past when he hasn't. Accident or no, it hasn't. It is just completley against continuity and it hurts Hulk's character making him more like his Ultimate counterpart.

Hulk DOESN'T kill innocents, even accidently. What some writer wrote in that "Innocent people are dying because he walks the Earth" in reference to Spidey? You'd be like, "What the hell? Where did that come from?" That's what I'm feeling right now, and just because it would make sense doesn't mean it happened.

I love Planet Hulk and I thought NA: Illuminati was an awesome read (except for an obvious part), but they could have done this to where it fit with continuity. What the hell are editors DOING these days?

 

[THANOSRULES]

yeah well Writers today seem to want to introduce more "realism" into comics...toning down cheese (costumes , hero rhetoric)..it makes sense when hulk fights somebody and buildings fall down and such, that somebody could have been killed..

Many old hulk battles, where people didnt died, certainly had the mechanism for deaths.

True of most heros, even truer for HULK...

I mean how many people has captain america killed??

Are we to beleive he went through WWII simply a' sockin the the lights out of pesky nazis'?

Sure these are'nt innocents and such, but its sort of "retconning" out the mixed comic book idealism and romantic feel of super hero battles.

Blame Ultimates, Blame JMS, Blame Bendis..whatever and who knows.

If Hulk were in our world he should have killed many, many people by now...if just indirectly.

I dont know if I like it, or what...but I do know planet Hulk absolutely ROMPS and has got me hooked on the hulk like I have never been...

 

[Marcdachamp]

Even if did show innocents killed, Iron Man said "How many this time?" Like it happens every week or something.

It is crap to say that Hulk has killed innocent people in the past when he hasn't. Accident or no, it hasn't. It is just completley against continuity and it hurts Hulk's character making him more like his Ultimate counterpart.

Hulk DOESN'T kill innocents, even accidently. What some writer wrote in that "Innocent people are dying because he walks the Earth" in reference to Spidey? You'd be like, "What the hell? Where did that come from?" That's what I'm feeling right now, and just because it would make sense doesn't mean it happened.

I love Planet Hulk and I thought NA: Illuminati was an awesome read (except for an obvious part), but they could have done this to where it fit with continuity. What the hell are editors DOING these days?

I'll repeat this because it seems everyone ignored me the first time: Neither Iron Man, nor director Hill say that Hulk killed anyone. It could be easily assumed that they were referring to those injured, seriously or otherwise. Obviously people have been hurt in his rampages. Therefore, no problem.

 

[Roughneck]

It's funny cause I also read the Illuminati book with Hulk killing 26 people and a dog, but just before that I read an Issue of She-Hulk where she stated that if Bruce ever killed someone he would take his own life, then back in the Illuminati it was revelaed that he wants to kill himself but cannot.

Either way I find it hard to believe that he never killed anyone, it's just a silly thought that he hasn't killed anyone in his rampages.

 

[BrianWilly]

I think there's a difference between intentionally murdering someone and someone getting killed in midst of one of your mindless, uncontrollable rages.

No one said that the Hulk actually went and murdered 26 people in cold blood. But 26 people getting killed because of the Hulk is so obvious in retrospect that it actually surprises me that Marvel's apparently had such a strict policy against it. Or so I hear, of course; I don't actually read any Hulk.

It's definitely still a bit of a retconish way of setting up Planet Hulk, but I think this sort of retcon was within the realms of reason.

 

[Themanofbat]

Alright, here is the timeline.

Pre-PAD Hulk has killed a total of 0 innocents.

During PAD's run all the way from 1987 to the end of the 90s, Hulk has
killed a total of 0 innocents.

From the end of PAD's run, there were a few writers until Paul Jenkins took over (one of which was Joe Casey). During that time Hulk has killed 0 innocents.

During Paul Jenkins' run Hulk killed 0 innocents.

During Bruce Jones' run, which I think rocked, the public backlashes against Hulk because there is video footage of Hulk killing a child in one of his rampages. Turns out he was just framed. When Doc Samson was asked about what he believed he said, "When was the last time you saw the Hulk kill anybody, let alone a kid?" (vol. 2, #36) Again 0 innocents killed in Jones' run.

After that, PAD took over again for a short time and the Hulk killed 0 innocents during this run.

Daniel Way took over during the Planet Hulk prelude (which sucked), and still, 0 innocents were killed.

In the Fantastic Four issues (#'s 533 - 535) Hulk goes out of his mind after he is exposed to a gamma bomb blast. I could see where they could get away with saying that he killed innocents here (and they DID say that in NA: Illuminati) but in the issues nothing is shown that would lead me to believe that innocents were killed during his rampage anyway.

Even if did show innocents killed, Iron Man said "How many this time?" Like it happens every week or something.

It is crap to say that Hulk has killed innocent people in the past when he hasn't. Accident or no, it hasn't. It is just completley against continuity and it hurts Hulk's character making him more like his Ultimate counterpart.

Hulk DOESN'T kill innocents, even accidently. What some writer wrote in that "Innocent people are dying because he walks the Earth" in reference to Spidey? You'd be like, "What the hell? Where did that come from?" That's what I'm feeling right now, and just because it would make sense doesn't mean it happened.

I love Planet Hulk and I thought NA: Illuminati was an awesome read (except for an obvious part), but they could have done this to where it fit with continuity. What the hell are editors DOING these days?

Nice post.

But seriously, didn't he kill people in that "Banner" mini-series a few years ago?
Or am I simply hallucinating???

 

[euroq]

Isn't that mini out of continuity?

I never bought it but I remember reading it, I guess it was a dotcomic at Marvel's website.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

He was killing people in 298

 

[The Question]

Alright, here is the timeline.

Pre-PAD Hulk has killed a total of 0 innocents.

During PAD's run all the way from 1987 to the end of the 90s, Hulk has
killed a total of 0 innocents.

From the end of PAD's run, there were a few writers until Paul Jenkins took over (one of which was Joe Casey). During that time Hulk has killed 0 innocents.

During Paul Jenkins' run Hulk killed 0 innocents.

During Bruce Jones' run, which I think rocked, the public backlashes against Hulk because there is video footage of Hulk killing a child in one of his rampages. Turns out he was just framed. When Doc Samson was asked about what he believed he said, "When was the last time you saw the Hulk kill anybody, let alone a kid?" (vol. 2, #36) Again 0 innocents killed in Jones' run.

After that, PAD took over again for a short time and the Hulk killed 0 innocents during this run.

Daniel Way took over during the Planet Hulk prelude (which sucked), and still, 0 innocents were killed.

In the Fantastic Four issues (#'s 533 - 535) Hulk goes out of his mind after he is exposed to a gamma bomb blast. I could see where they could get away with saying that he killed innocents here (and they DID say that in NA: Illuminati) but in the issues nothing is shown that would lead me to believe that innocents were killed during his rampage anyway.

Even if did show innocents killed, Iron Man said "How many this time?" Like it happens every week or something.

It is crap to say that Hulk has killed innocent people in the past when he hasn't. Accident or no, it hasn't. It is just completley against continuity and it hurts Hulk's character making him more like his Ultimate counterpart.

Hulk DOESN'T kill innocents, even accidently. What some writer wrote in that "Innocent people are dying because he walks the Earth" in reference to Spidey? You'd be like, "What the hell? Where did that come from?" That's what I'm feeling right now, and just because it would make sense doesn't mean it happened.

I love Planet Hulk and I thought NA: Illuminati was an awesome read (except for an obvious part), but they could have done this to where it fit with continuity. What the hell are editors DOING these days?

The thing is, no one having ever died in his rampages makes absolutely no sense. He's demolished entire sections of cities before. You're telling be everyone walked away with minor cuts and bruises? When the Hulk goes into full mindless rapage mode, when he's running on basic animal instinct and lashing out at everything, it makes no sense that he'd never kill anybody. Way I see it, people have died during his major rampages. It's just never been mentioned until now.

I mean how many people has captain america killed??

More than a few. The ones shown on panel are when he cut off Baron Blood's head, when he killed that terrorist in the arc where Jon Cassidy did the art, and when he knocked a few terrorists off of a moving train in Brubaker's run. He was also shown killing lots of people in his origional stories in the 40s.

 

[roach]

How many people did Namor kill in his attack on New York????
How many people did Stark kill from his weapons???

this really shouldnt be the bunch to throw stones

 

[The Question]

How many people did Namor kill in his attack on New York????

Well, from what I understand, most of the city was evacuated when he flooded it in the 40s.

How many people did Stark kill from his weapons???

One time he accidentally killed a diplomat with his suit.

 

[Mara Jane]

Does the Illuminati issue (sorry, haven't read it) say there were 26 deaths or 26 casualties? Casualties does not equal deaths; they can simply be injuries.

 

[gildea]

I'll repeat this because it seems everyone ignored me the first time: Neither Iron Man, nor director Hill say that Hulk killed anyone. It could be easily assumed that they were referring to those injured, seriously or otherwise. Obviously people have been hurt in his rampages. Therefore, no problem.

Thats a good point.

The story NEVER actually says the hulk killed anyone.

At all.

Going back it seems like it was heavily set up to imply this to justify the exile but so it could be argued later that he hasn't ACTUALLY killed anyone.

nice catch sir

 

[TheSumOfGod]

I think Brian Azzarello's "Banner" mini-series that came out about 5 or 6 years ago was one of the first times I've ever heard about the Hulk killing.

They act like it's been happening all along these days...

Precisely. They essentially said: "What? When the Hulk rampaged through cities and small towns and villages and destroyed entire buildings for all those years, did you actually think that no one ever got hurt? When you destroy a building, even by accident, there are usually people in it that die."

 

[gildea]

banner was out of continuity was it not? didn't he kill himself at the end of it?

 

[The Question]

It was implied that he hulked out at the last minute and survived.

 

[Roughneck]

Well Stark kills inadvertantly. And Namor doesn't give a hoot. Namor was actually against it.

Banner is Out of Continuity

And Ultimate hulk Eats people.

 

[wobbly]

Thing to remember about the Hulk's many past rampages is they have usually come with time for people to get the hell outta the way and for other heroes or the military to move in (with them usually being the one's provoking the rampage in the first place). And yes, if he levelled a building with people in it there would be deaths but only the mindless Hulk (I think only seen twice?) would deliberately smash something without being aware of any innocents (or potential innocents) nearby. Even the gray Hulk, which is the nastiest of the 3 personalities he has possessed ('Devil' Hulk has remained in Bruce's head so far) still has enough morality inside him to avoid crossing that line.
So for me the Hulk should not be portrayed/ret-conned as having killed innocents in the past, even if they make it clear it's indirectly, and there's enough wriggle room in continuity to cover how such deaths could have been avoided.
In the end, for all the trouble he can bring the Hulk has been for the most part a very moral character, hell, the point of some stories in the past was to show that the childish persona is far more moral than those who would try to destroy him.

Also, ditto on the 'casualties' part. Though deaths was my first implication on reading that injuries also fits that term, so maybe we are jumping the gun a little.