When Did 616 Hulk Start Killing?

[Shadowknight]

Not really relevant to "collateral killing", but the Hulk has killed people in the past under PAD, always deliberately.

1. Future Imperfect: killed a bunch of soldiers in the first few pages of the book. Deliberately murdered the Maestro (didn't have any other option really, but still...). Killed one soldier by accident, the one fused to the flying thing. Deliberately killed several soldiers by throwing a piece of metal at one flying thingy, setting it up to destroy several in one shot. Killed a Dog of War. If you count the Maestro as the Hulk, even though he's an alternate reality version, he killed at least his Minister and Pifiz on page. *ETA: The Smart Hulk knocked the Maestro into an apartment building, we saw one person die on panel. His last words were for the Hulk to kill the Maestro (who then snapped the Hulk's neck while he was distracted).
2. Grey Hulk: He never worked for the Mafia, just a casino who was actually threatened by the Maggia. Deliberately killed a dog in a cock-fight type arena. Attempted to murder Crusher Creel (Absorbing Man), not knowing he could reform himself from little pieces.
3. Intelligent Hulk (not counting #1 above) - while psychotic at the time, deliberately killed the Leader

So She-Hulks claim that Bruce would kill himself if he took anyone's life is wrong. In all of the cases above, the Hulk deliberately killed people, not by accident but by choice. In all cases, he didn't show any remorse after the fact, and was in full control of his mental facilities whether he was Grey or Banner was running the show.

Doesn't really have anything to do with collateral killing, with what this thread is about, just wanted to mention the Hulk's killed people. On the other hand, I don't buy the retcon of killing people on rampages; it's comics, he's never killed anyone on rampages, no matter how "realistic" it would be. That would be "realistic", but also depressing, something I prefer to avoid in straight up superhero comics. If I wanted nasty killing, I'd just pull out my copy of Miracleman #15, one of the most violent issues of all time (Screw Supreme Power, THIS is a nasty fight scene/book, featuring deliberate and collateral killing.

 

[UK_Stu]

I'm not a massive Hulk fan, so bear with me.

I never realised that Hulk had never killed any innocents before, and I'm suprised to hear that considering the amount of damage he causes in his battles and his ramages. So to hear of casualties because of the Hulk seemed reasonable to me. BUT if he hasn't killed innocents in the past (though that seems far fetched) it really affects the whole ethos of the character if Marvel now claim he has done a lot of this in the past.

 

[Fantasyartist]

It's possible that the Hulk may have killed people (such as his pursuer Glenn Talbot in #Hulk 260) or at least seriously injured them (as he did to the then Crimson Dynamo, Dmitri Bukharin in #Hulk 258) so badly as to require emergency surgery),but we should make a distinction between killing in a fit of anger or in the heat of battle and killing in cold blood. Remember, other heroes such as Captain America have been known to kill in cases of extreme need when conventional means are unavailable or impractical(ie. beheading the Nazi vampire Baron Blood-technically this wasn't murder as the good Baron was no longer alive- just as an episode of THOR in which the Thunder God, stating that his oath never to take human life was invalid as Dracula was "dead" prepared to kill him.
Killing in the heat of battle or in anger maybe, but I can't think of ol'Greenskin as a cold blooded killer!

 

[UK_Stu]

Killing in the heat of battle or in anger maybe, but I can't think of ol'Greenskin as a cold blooded killer!

I think this is what separates 616 HUlk and Ultimate Hulk

 

[The Question]

I don't think tackling the possibility of someone dying when the Hulk inadvertantly knocks over a building should for whatever reason be reserved for the Ultimate universe, I think that those sorts of questions are perfectly valid and in-place in the 616 universe. The Ultimate universe isn't some "sophisticated," "mature" version of the regular universe; it's just another point of view. There's no reason why the 616 universe has to be dumbed down for people who don't like asking difficult questions.

The fictional world of comics takes a lot of liberties with scientific facts and laws of the universe, but the physics and matters of the real world still come into play, especially when you bring matters of morality into the mix. People still might die and will die. At what point does "taking liberties with reality" become flat-out "not real at all"? The truth of the matter is that when you knock over a whole building, someone is going to die. Period. Especially if buildings keep getting knocked over, over and over and over again by the same guy.

I can maybe believe someone like Juggernaut having never caused any deaths in his career since he is 100% in control of his own actions, but the Hulk isn't. He's called mindless for a reason. Even experienced superheroes like Spider-Man and Captain America have to intentionally go out of their way and make an effort to keep ordinary citizens safe in midst of one of their scuffles; it's hard work, and sometimes they even fail at it. The Hulk might have that mentality some of the time, but definitely not all of the time.

I'm just as ready to rag on Bendis for his various many sins as the next guy, but I can't fault him for this specific choice of words. I mean, he's looking at something logically and reasonably and...that's a bad thing now? I wouldn't want to read comics where everything is painted in a false light just so we can keep some innocent, naive image of the Hulk.

Very true. The Savage Hulk may be rather innocent and child like, but the military has atacked him on several occasions, causing the child to throw a temper tantrum in their direction. I wouldn't be suprised if he has killed several soldiers. And when he completely looses it and starts rampaging through a city, it would only make sense that some people would die.

 

[KAD]

Here's how I see it.

The Hulk is a uncontrollable monster, and it would make very little to no sense that he's never killed a person in a fit of rage. This was never mentioned/shown in any of the older Hulk comics because Marvel always tried to sell him as a super hero. I think in truth he has killed many people, but I could be wrong, it all depends on what the decree of the writers are.

I always thought the Hulk in the Ultimates was how the Hulk was supposed to be, not having his own book Millar was allowed to have the Hulk act how he really would without trying to make him look like a hero.

Hulk is a monster with a deep down sensitive side, that side would keep him from killing some innocent people, but when in a full blown rage, I think he could destroy a large city without even thinking.

OMFG!!! Some with common sense.

And they like comics, I gotta call Ripley's

 

[Mr. Green]

I can maybe believe someone like Juggernaut having never caused any deaths in his career since he is 100% in control of his own actions, but the Hulk isn't. He's called mindless for a reason. Even experienced superheroes like Spider-Man and Captain America have to intentionally go out of their way and make an effort to keep ordinary citizens safe in midst of one of their scuffles; it's hard work, and sometimes they even fail at it. The Hulk might have that mentality some of the time, but definitely not all of the time.

Here is where you are wrong. Hulk is NOT mindless. Not at all. As somebody stated before there were two ocassions when he was mindless (like when Banner was seperated from Hulk). The rest of the time he isn't mindless and he has more control than you are probably aware of.

Savage Hulk is what you are thinking of. He's dumb and childlike, but he doesn't just smash things for no reason. He has to be provoked by someone or something, and when he isn't he is quite benevolent.

Anyway, the Hulk hasn't been Savage Hulk for a while. PAD made him more like a cross between the Savage and Gray Hulk. The powers of Savage but he isn't dumb. He isn't quite as sinister as the Gray Hulk either.

So he IS in complete control, and has been for a while. This is important because that is further proof that Hulk doesn't constantly do things to claim innocent life.

 

[Mr. Green]

To everybody: PLEASE SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE IN AN ISSUE THAT IS IN CONTINUITY WHERE HULK SMASHES A BUILDING THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE FILLED WITH PEOPLE.

 

[rjb182]

Y'know what this reminds me of? Those old 80's adventure shows like "The A-Team" or the "Dukes of Hazzard" where the heroes would be spraying bullets all around or causing cars to overturn, and the shot would always linger for a second to show the villains climbing out of their car, so nobody was "really" hurt...

So on the one hand we have the casual or non-Hulk fans who are saying "Of COURSE the Hulk would have killed people! It's only realistic!"

And on the other you have the Hulk supporters who are saying "Who says we want that? We were just minding our own business, watching 'The Dukes of Hazzard,' and out of nowhere they got all realistic on us!"

I admit I'm closer to the first camp, 'cause I'm more interested in what works for the overall Marvel U. than in the Hulk as a character. But I think both sides have a point...

 

[roach]

I think I am in both camps. While it is believeable that Hulk would have killed people in his rampages I think it is unbelieveable the way the Marvel Universe has reated to it. Think about it.... the Hulk kills one boy and the Government goes after him like he's The A-Team. If he had killed before the Hulk busters would be hot on his trail.

 

[Mr. Green]

I think I am in both camps. While it is believeable that Hulk would have killed people in his rampages I think it is unbelieveable the way the Marvel Universe has reated to it. Think about it.... the Hulk kills one boy and the Government goes after him like he's The A-Team. If he had killed before the Hulk busters would be hot on his trail.

EXACTLY!

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

I was reading the Illuminati special the other day, and got to the part where the SHIELD director tells Iron Man that the Hulk's latest rampage cost the lives of 26 people (and a dog)...

Shortly before that, in the prelude to Planet Hulk, it looked like he crushed the skull of a would-be rapist...

So...how long has this been going on?

The prime of my Hulk collecting was back in the seventies and eighties, under such writers as Len Wein and Bill Mantlo, and i'm pretty sure the Hulk had NEVER killed up to that point.

So is this a relatively new thing, or what?

Well,i can imagine your mind is fresh full of comics from back in the day.I never thought that the Hulk was a killer,just a brute with a small brain.That`s how it started,but i liked how it was portrayed with Hulk,Banner and his anger.

It gave the whole thing depth,which i thought was a good thing.The savage Hulk was just a figure of the times,now this?I dont really like how the Hulk is being portrayed today.Im suprised an old timer like you would actually accept Planet Hulk or Illuminati,im not.

 

[Genesis 1.0]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis 1.0
Seems to me they're turning him into Ult. Hulk, this is his schtick.

true

This really bothers me though. The whole point of the Ultimate U is for a new take on things and it seems lately like a bunch of the writers are trying to take both incarnations of a character into the same direction. Ult. Scarlet Witch doesn't need to start wearing the same costume as 616. 616 Hulk doesn't need to start killing people like Ult. Hulk. Leave 616 Cap as a liberal peak-human and Ult Cap as a super-human conservative. The differences are what makes it interesting!!

Heh, exactly why I mentioned it, alot of characters are now showing 'side effects' of their counterparts and this whole Hulk deal is just another example of what I'm talking about. Seems that if one writer sees a point in a Hulk version killing innocents then the other could as well, I suppose it's impossible to open these new Avenues in the Ultimate Universe and then expect other writers not to take a few of them. Heh, the comic world isn't exactly known for ingenuity, I doubt this is the last time we'll see this in 616.

 

[KAD]

To everybody: PLEASE SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE IN AN ISSUE THAT IS IN CONTINUITY WHERE HULK SMASHES A BUILDING THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE FILLED WITH PEOPLE.

There are several.

One in particular comes to mind.

In the Byrne run the Hulk fights Namor, WonderMan, IronMan and Hercules and lays waste to an entire section of new Mexico city

 

[Mr. Green]

That was the mindless Hulk, and I wouldn't complain if he did that because he was seperated from Banner. I was really asking for something including the Savage Hulk since everyone keeps talking about how he's ALWAYS smashing buildings.

By the way, the town was abandonned and when there was a house full of people who didn't want to leave Hulk smashed it. Everyone ran away first though, and went unharmed.

 

[gildea]

To everybody: PLEASE SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE IN AN ISSUE THAT IS IN CONTINUITY WHERE HULK SMASHES A BUILDING THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE FILLED WITH PEOPLE.

Future imperfect.

In the first fight with the maestro hulk punches the maestro into a building which promptly collapses. One person dies. As hulk is mourning over the body the maestro sneaks up and breaks his neck.


The edition i have has an afterward from peter david explaining future imperfect IS in continuity as a possible path.

 

[Grim Goblin]

There are several.

One in particular comes to mind.

In the Byrne run the Hulk fights Namor, WonderMan, IronMan and Hercules and lays waste to an entire section of new Mexico city

Yep, that was in Incredible Hulk #316.

That book featured the mindless Hulk (without Banner), and a tv reporter named Dianne Bellamy states on page 3 that the number of deaths caused by the Hulk's rampage might reach the hundreds. Wonderman also confirm that there were deaths caused by the Hulk when Samson tells all 4 avengers to back off.

He may have been mindless but that was still Hulk who killed thos people.

 

[The Question]

Here is where you are wrong. Hulk is NOT mindless. Not at all. As somebody stated before there were two ocassions when he was mindless (like when Banner was seperated from Hulk). The rest of the time he isn't mindless and he has more control than you are probably aware of.

He's been mindless more than twice. Whenever he goes completely nuts, goes on a major rampage and the like, he's probably in mindless mode.

Savage Hulk is what you are thinking of. He's dumb and childlike, but he doesn't just smash things for no reason. He has to be provoked by someone or something, and when he isn't he is quite benevolent.

Very true. But when he is provoked, that's what we're talking about here. Are you telling me that in the many times he's fought the military, not a one of them has been killed by having a tank thrown at them?

Anyway, the Hulk hasn't been Savage Hulk for a while. PAD made him more like a cross between the Savage and Gray Hulk. The powers of Savage but he isn't dumb. He isn't quite as sinister as the Gray Hulk either.

So he IS in complete control, and has been for a while. This is important because that is further proof that Hulk doesn't constantly do things to claim innocent life.

He isn't always, though. He has lost it from time to time in recent years.

 

[BrianWilly]

Whenever someone brings up the "It's just a comic book, it's not real, it's fantasy!" argument in order to justify wildly unrealistic aspects of a comic book, it always reminds me of what Joel Schumacher reportedly said to everyone over and over again on the set of Batman and Robin: "Remember guys, it's a cartoon!! SMILE!"

Being a comic book gives you liberty to tell fictional stories with the requisite theatrical drama and fantastical science, but that's not nearly the same thing as saying that you can just forget about the tangible facets of the real world and just tell silly-ass silver age tomfoolery up and down the street. The Hulk is a fantasy book, but "fantasy" doesn't mean "dumbed down."

 

[Mr. Green]

He's been mindless more than twice. Whenever he goes completely nuts, goes on a major rampage and the like, he's probably in mindless mode.

No he hasn't. The mindless Hulk is completely different than Banner. Hulk won't attack certain people/things. Take away Banner and he has no reasoning. He just smashes anything and everything. That statement just shows that you know little about the character.

And you know what? I'm fine with mindless Hulk doing things that would kill people. Why? Because Banner has nothing to do with it. It's like if Iron Man's suit came to life and started shooting everything. Would you blame Stark if it wasn't his fault? Nope. And you wouldn't blame Banner either. But Hulk is as much Banner as Banner is the Hulk, and neither would just smash apart a town or city for no reason.

 

[Mr. Green]

Being a comic book gives you liberty to tell fictional stories with the requisite theatrical drama and fantastical science, but that's not nearly the same thing as saying that you can just forget about the tangible facets of the real world and just tell silly-ass silver age tomfoolery up and down the street. The Hulk is a fantasy book, but "fantasy" doesn't mean "dumbed down."

Yeah, and it isn't dumbed down. Saying Hulk has done something that would be impossible in the last few years according to the actual Hulk series is dumb.

You know what WOULD be dumbed down also? If the Hulk writers had Bruce Banner turn into Hulk and smash buildings just because he was mad. Thank God that no writer has done that.

 

[BrianWilly]

Yeah, and it isn't dumbed down. Saying Hulk has done something that would be impossible in the last few years according to the actual Hulk series is dumb.

Why is it impossible?

People die in the midst of ordinary superhero conflicts all the time. And the Hulk is no ordinary superhero. The circumstances for casualties in his line of fire is much, much higher than other superheroes due to his very nature. Are you going to tell us that the actual number of casualties is actually lower than that of other superheroes?

Banner might not be mindless Hulk, but he is responsible for him. If Iron Man's suit goes crazy and kills people, Tony has the obligation to shut it down and make sure it would never happen again. When mindless Hulk goes crazy and kills people, Banner has the obligation to shut him down and make sure it never happens again.

Obviously, he hasn't done that. The Hulk still exists, through no particular fault of anyone's, and at any given transformation there is the possibility of him going mindless. It's happened before, and it'll happen again. Not just that it might happen, it will happen. If Banner isn't going to make sure the problem goes away, then someone has to do it for him.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Why is it impossible?

People die in the midst of ordinary superhero conflicts all the time. And the Hulk is no ordinary superhero. The circumstances for casualties in his line of fire is much, much higher than other superheroes due to his very nature. Are you going to tell us that the actual number of casualties is actually lower than that of other superheroes?

Banner might not be mindless Hulk, but he is responsible for him. If Iron Man's suit goes crazy and kills people, Tony has the obligation to shut it down and make sure it would never happen again. When mindless Hulk goes crazy and kills people, Banner has the obligation to shut him down and make sure it never happens again.

Obviously, he hasn't done that. The Hulk still exists, through no particular fault of anyone's, and at any given transformation there is the possibility of him going mindless. It's happened before, and it'll happen again. Not just that it might happen, it will happen. If Banner isn't going to make sure the problem goes away, then someone has to do it for him.

Ok I will admit the possible is above as long as the superhero community then admits that having all of them walk the earth be a danger to innocents. if this argument is valid for Hulk, it is valid for all super powerred beings given that Hulk would never intentionally hurt an innocent relative to his psyche.

 

[The Question]

No he hasn't. The mindless Hulk is completely different than Banner. Hulk won't attack certain people/things. Take away Banner and he has no reasoning. He just smashes anything and everything. That statement just shows that you know little about the character.

No, it doesn't. And yes, he has. He's gone mindless more that twice. He's just rampaged through cities for the hell of it more than twice.

And you know what? I'm fine with mindless Hulk doing things that would kill people. Why? Because Banner has nothing to do with it. It's like if Iron Man's suit came to life and started shooting everything. Would you blame Stark if it wasn't his fault? Nope. And you wouldn't blame Banner either. But Hulk is as much Banner as Banner is the Hulk, and neither would just smash apart a town or city for no reason.

The Mindlkess Hulk is not anything like if Tony's suit just randomly started killing people. The Mindless Hulk is another one of Bruce's personalities. It's just as much a part of him as Joe Fixit or the Savage Hulk.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

The Mindlkess Hulk is not anything like if Tony's suit just randomly started killing people. The Mindless Hulk is another one of Bruce's personalities. It's just as much a part of him as Joe Fixit or the Savage Hulk.

The mindless Hulk is not supposed to be a Banner persona as this is the Hulk without........a mind or in other words the Banner persona.