When Did 616 Hulk Start Killing?

[gildea]

Read above to see my argument and why I'm pissed.

Didn't get the chance to read Future Imperfect, but from what Wobbly says it sounds like you are just posting whatever suits your argument. You make it sound like Hulk did something to blatantly put lives in danger.

It is FACT that Proffesor Hulk (Banner Hulk) would always put saving innocent lives as first priority.

Heh
he did put lives in danger, the only disagreement wobbly and i have is if the person survived. You might want to read the posts before posting in such a condescending manner (and blatantly ignorant manner).

For your edification you said show me a time when he smashes a building with people in it so i did thats all. I didn't say anything about his motivations (when he realises what happens he digs out the people).

and you really want to read future imperfect also it's arguably the best story about your favourite character.

 

[Grim Goblin]

well I'm bailing out of this debate since Mr Green is clearly not interested in hearing any opinions different than his own. I don't mind a healthy debate where each party throw around facts to prove their point, but his condescending attitude and total disregard of things that don't support his point of view clearly show me this is a waste of my time.

I've been down this road before with Jplaya 2023 and although it was fun owning his clueless ass, I just have better things to do these days.

 

[The Question]

Good post, and good point.

Keep in mind that the majority of the time in the last 20 years, Hulk has either been Banner Hulk or Gray Hulk, both of which have control over their actions as to avoid unnecessary smashing. And the current incarnation of the Hulk is one of my favorites, because it gives Hulk intelligence while keeping the power of the regular Savage Hulk.

You're right, Savage Hulk has not been seen for a while. But Joe Fixit is very far from what I'd call a hero, and has some traits I would consider somewhat vilinous at times.

I think if you read Planet Hulk (It's only two issues in, catching up would be easy) because everyone who does loves it, and then you would be like, "Man! This character is way cooler than anyone else in the world! I finally understand the character!"

Oh, I get the character. And, I get that the character is alot more complex that "hero" or "villain". He's done some very good things and some very bad things before.

 

[Mr. Green]

Heh
he did put lives in danger, the only disagreement wobbly and i have is if the person survived.

Okay... You're right. Banner Hulk doesn't care about innocent lives and he blatantly disregarded them. He knew that there was someone in the building that he smashed. He DOESN'T put innocent lives ahead of everything else.

When some writer is allowed to make YOUR favorite writer look like a careless dick who kills countless innocents in every other issue, we'll see how you react. And screw continuity too. That doesn't matter in the face of realism, because that's all that matters in a superhero book. REALISM.

 

[TheSumOfGod]

I wonder what Hulk will do when he returns from Planet Hulk... tie Mister Fantastic into a knot, perhaps?

 

[rjb182]

When some writer is allowed to make YOUR favorite writer look like a careless dick who kills countless innocents in every other issue, we'll see how you react.

Fortunately, my favorite is Wolverine. That would be 100-percent in-character!

I jest. Somewhat...

 

[Genesis 1.0]

I think if you read Planet Hulk (It's only two issues in, catching up would be easy) because everyone who does loves it, and then you would be like, "Man! This character is way cooler than anyone else in the world! I finally understand the character!"

..............

Don't you think that's more than a bit subjective? Jaded? It's stuff like this thrown into an otherwise decent argument that result in the type of response you've gained in this thread.

 

[gildea]

Okay... You're right. Banner Hulk doesn't care about innocent lives and he blatantly disregarded them. He knew that there was someone in the building that he smashed. He DOESN'T put innocent lives ahead of everything else.

When some writer is allowed to make YOUR favorite writer look like a careless dick who kills countless innocents in every other issue, we'll see how you react. And screw continuity too. That doesn't matter in the face of realism, because that's all that matters in a superhero book. REALISM.

Dear me.

If you'd read my posts in my discussion with wobbly you would have seen i disagree with the concept of making the hulk a regular accidental killer.

And i don't recall saying professor hulk was trying to actually hurt innocents either.

So is all you have to offer me ignorance of what i have said or making up stuff that i've said?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I think if you read Planet Hulk (It's only two issues in, catching up would be easy) because everyone who does loves it, and then you would be like, "Man! This character is way cooler than anyone else in the world! I finally understand the character!"

Naw...he is kind of a jerk now. They don't even write the whole fear Banner has of becoming the Hulk. Now that was the Hulk. The Hulk that made Banner run into unihabited areas to keep his anger at bay and keep the Hulk away from people. However Banner cannot control Hulk and thats the thing. Don Blake could control Thor. Hulk is Banner anger embodied, not his smarts, not his ethics, not his morals, not even his common sense. Its his anger. He is not a hero, he is an antihero, but only because Banner puts himself in situations where the Hulk could be used for good. However the rest of the world will never see that. Hulk has come up against Thor, the Fantastic Four, The X-Men, Colossus, Sasquatch, Man Thing, Quasar, Black Bolt, Iron Man, Namor, Dr Strange, Alpha Flight, the Avengers, scads of Alternate dimension creatures, Xemnu, SHIELD and the US army and totalled them all. Thats why they sent him into space. Not because Banner tries to control Hulk, but because there is no assurance he can. And if he goes "all rage again" or Dark or mindless or super empowered or sinister Grey again there are not going to be a whole lot of people who can stop him.

 

[wobbly]

Naw...he is kind of a jerk now. They don't even write the whole fear Banner has of becoming the Hulk. Now that was the Hulk. The Hulk that made Banner run into unihabited areas to keep his anger at bay and keep the Hulk away from people. However Banner cannot control Hulk and thats the thing. Don Blake could control Thor. Hulk is Banner anger embodied, not his smarts, not his ethics, not his morals, not even his common sense. Its his anger. He is not a hero, he is an antihero, but only because Banner puts himself in situations where the Hulk could be used for good. However the rest of the world will never see that. Hulk has come up against Thor, the Fantastic Four, The X-Men, Colossus, Sasquatch, Man Thing, Quasar, Black Bolt, Iron Man, Namor, Dr Strange, Alpha Flight, the Avengers, scads of Alternate dimension creatures, Xemnu, SHIELD and the US army and totalled them all. Thats why they sent him into space. Not because Banner tries to control Hulk, but because there is no assurance he can. And if he goes "all rage again" or Dark or mindless or super empowered or sinister Grey again there are not going to be a whole lot of people who can stop him.

I wouldn't have a problem with the idea of his being sent away because of fear of his potential threat, but in making that threat very real (and in the past tense too) and as such making the action fully justified I do think Bendis has dropped the ball. Should also be noted they had to contrive a reason for the rampage that precipitated this exile, ie; Hulk hasn't rampaged through a city for ages so they came up with this bomb exploding in his face out of the blue in FF that made him go ape and prompt the Illuminati having just cause to make such a decision.

Lastly, though I agree with you in that the savage Hulk will always be my 'real' version of the Hulk too, I disagree that he has no moral values; just because he never sets out to be a hero doesn't mean he doesnt know or respect the difference in good & evil, and when push comes to shove he has usually chose to side with the good.

 

[Mr. Green]

Naw...he is kind of a jerk now. They don't even write the whole fear Banner has of becoming the Hulk. Now that was the Hulk. The Hulk that made Banner run into unihabited areas to keep his anger at bay and keep the Hulk away from people. However Banner cannot control Hulk and thats the thing. Don Blake could control Thor. Hulk is Banner anger embodied, not his smarts, not his ethics, not his morals, not even his common sense. Its his anger. He is not a hero, he is an antihero, but only because Banner puts himself in situations where the Hulk could be used for good. However the rest of the world will never see that. Hulk has come up against Thor, the Fantastic Four, The X-Men, Colossus, Sasquatch, Man Thing, Quasar, Black Bolt, Iron Man, Namor, Dr Strange, Alpha Flight, the Avengers, scads of Alternate dimension creatures, Xemnu, SHIELD and the US army and totalled them all. Thats why they sent him into space. Not because Banner tries to control Hulk, but because there is no assurance he can. And if he goes "all rage again" or Dark or mindless or super empowered or sinister Grey again there are not going to be a whole lot of people who can stop him.

That is a good post.

I have to agree with Wobbly though, because Bendis could have followed EXACTLY the logic that you used. Hulk IS a huge risk as you stated. You gave perfect examples that Bendis could have used himself. Instead he figured he needed to be the guy who made Hulk a killer.

Planet Hulk IS pretty badass though, and I think a lot of people who never even read the Hulk like it a lot. As for Hulk being a jerk, Hulk #82 is a one-shot written by PAD with the current Hulk incarnation. It is a great story and it shows that Hulk isn't just an ass.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I wouldn't have a problem with the idea of his being sent away because of fear of his potential threat, but in making that threat very real (and in the past tense too) and as such making the action fully justified I do think Bendis has dropped the ball. Should also be noted they had to contrive a reason for the rampage that precipitated this exile, ie; Hulk hasn't rampaged through a city for ages so they came up with this bomb exploding in his face out of the blue in FF that made him go ape and prompt the Illuminati having just cause to make such a decision.

Lastly, though I agree with you in that the savage Hulk will always be my 'real' version of the Hulk too, I disagree that he has no moral values; just because he never sets out to be a hero doesn't mean he doesnt know or respect the difference in good & evil, and when push comes to shove he has usually chose to side with the good.

I was confused at Reed's participation in shooting the Hulk off into space. Namor I can easily see--he's got loads of first-hand experience with how destructive and uncontrollable the Hulk can be thanks to their time on the Defenders, plus he's just that kind of guy. Iron Man I could see as well, since his characterization lately has slipped back to the manipulative, morally ambiguous *****ebag he used to be around the West Coast Avengers/Armor Wars era. Black Bolt I'm not sure, since I don't know much about his personality, but my guess is that if it doesn't directly affect Attilan, he wouldn't have a problem with it; he locked his own brother up for pretty much the rest of time based on the damage he could do in Attilan, after all. Professor X has had a similar streak to Iron Man lately, becoming more and more of a morally ambiguous leader participating in subtle, clandestine machinations that the X-Men never knew about--Deadly Genesis, Mystique's last series, and the craptastic "Danger" arc from AXM are proof enough of that.

But Reed? When has Reed ever really shown the kind of moral arrogance to jettison one of his close friends and scientific colleagues off into space for damage he may or may not have caused or will cause? There was the recent "Authoritative Action" stuff in Latveria, but that was a pretty unique case in that Dr. Doom had just possessed his infant daughter and sent his adolescent son to Hell. That's bound to twist a man's sense of right and wrong. He got over it with the help of his family in the FF and returned more or less to his normal, unassuming self afterwards, though. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something since I haven't been reading FF lately, but the fact that Reed not only participated, but in fact came up with the idea to send the Hulk into space, seemed like a departure from his usual characterization. I guess he might've been cowed into submission by the other Illuminati members' agreement, though.

 

[The Question]

If you read the current FF series, you'll see that Reed feels EXTREMELY guilty about alot of the things the Illuminati's been doing, including jetisoning Banner into space and supporting the registration act. They never actually say it, but you see him thinking about what the group has done and sulking alot.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Ok, well props to JMS for that, even if he is making Peter Iron Man's butt-monkey over in ASM.

 

[Mr. Green]

Namor is my second favorite character now because of that issue. He was the only one to see that it was messed up for them to betray the Hulkster! He put the hurt on that bastard Stark, too.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, it was nice to see Namor kick some ass for once.

 

[BrianWilly]

And yet, some people have mentioned that that was out-of-character for Namor, that it was weird for him to care at all about the fate of the Hulk and how cruel it was considering his own checkered past, much less push for the Hulk's freedom when Namor himself has seen firsthand the type of danger he is and would be pragmatic, as the King of Atlantis, about what to do with that kind of danger.

If anything, I second the notion that Reed Richards giving up on trying to cure Banner is just very questionable. He's Reed f'ing Richards; "impossible" isn't even a word in his dictionary. And now he's giving up on a scientific pursuit because, in his own words, it would be a lot of work to go through with it?

Okay...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Not to mention the possible other applications that a cure for Banner could lend itself to. The Hulk stems mostly from Banner's MPD, after all; the radiation was just a catalyst that had the outlandish result of giving his other personas physical form. Cure Bruce Banner of becoming the Hulk entirely and you've probably got a cure for MPD wrapped up in it somewhere. Millions of lives could be bettered with that.

 

[roach]

And yet, some people have mentioned that that was out-of-character for Namor, that it was weird for him to care at all about the fate of the Hulk and how cruel it was considering his own checkered past, much less push for the Hulk's freedom when Namor himself has seen firsthand the type of danger he is and would be pragmatic, as the King of Atlantis, about what to do with that kind of danger.

If anything, I second the notion that Reed Richards giving up on trying to cure Banner is just very questionable. He's Reed f'ing Richards; "impossible" isn't even a word in his dictionary. And now he's giving up on a scientific pursuit because, in his own words, it would be a lot of work to go through with it?

Okay...

Actually I believe Namor's characterization in correct. I see him thinking that if this is how they deal with Hulk how soon will it be until they do it to him.

 

[BrianWilly]

I actually really like how Namor was written in this issue; to see a bunch of stuffy old guys prattling on about stuffy stuff and then suddenly have this butthead with pointy ears go "You know, you're all so very very stupid" was just great.

I can totally see how the prospect of being betrayed by these people alarms Namor, but on the other hand would he really care so much? After all, he's the one that's always looking for an excuse to get into a fight. And like he says, if they ever did anything to him it would be war against Atlantis.

It was just a bit weird looking at all these people who would normally look for other ways to solve a problem all of a sudden going for the easiest way out, and then Namor the guy who usually has a very direct, very violent way of doing things all of sudden questioning their decision. It's a minor nitpick, though, and to be honest it's more about the other characters' choices being awkward than it is about Namor.

 

[roach]

I was confused at Reed's participation in shooting the Hulk off into space. Namor I can easily see--he's got loads of first-hand experience with how destructive and uncontrollable the Hulk can be thanks to their time on the Defenders, plus he's just that kind of guy. Iron Man I could see as well, since his characterization lately has slipped back to the manipulative, morally ambiguous *****ebag he used to be around the West Coast Avengers/Armor Wars era. Black Bolt I'm not sure, since I don't know much about his personality, but my guess is that if it doesn't directly affect Attilan, he wouldn't have a problem with it; he locked his own brother up for pretty much the rest of time based on the damage he could do in Attilan, after all. Professor X has had a similar streak to Iron Man lately, becoming more and more of a morally ambiguous leader participating in subtle, clandestine machinations that the X-Men never knew about--Deadly Genesis, Mystique's last series, and the craptastic "Danger" arc from AXM are proof enough of that.

But Reed? When has Reed ever really shown the kind of moral arrogance to jettison one of his close friends and scientific colleagues off into space for damage he may or may not have caused or will cause? There was the recent "Authoritative Action" stuff in Latveria, but that was a pretty unique case in that Dr. Doom had just possessed his infant daughter and sent his adolescent son to Hell. That's bound to twist a man's sense of right and wrong. He got over it with the help of his family in the FF and returned more or less to his normal, unassuming self afterwards, though. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something since I haven't been reading FF lately, but the fact that Reed not only participated, but in fact came up with the idea to send the Hulk into space, seemed like a departure from his usual characterization. I guess he might've been cowed into submission by the other Illuminati members' agreement, though.

i see the light bulb going off

 

[wobbly]

I think Namor's reaction was fine. He has fought both against and alongside the Hulk and isn't the type to take what he would see as a dishonorable route out of the perceived problem.
Tony I could see suggesting the idea, he would see it as a practical solution, but Reed? No way. I mean this is the guy who saved Galactus' life, was put on trial for it after the big G ate the Skrull homeworld, and now he is advocating setting loose another potential mass killer amongst the stars?

And the exile in space is another thing that bothers me: When Dr. Strange sent the mindless Hulk to the crossroads he made it all part of the spell that he could never enter a world where he could cause harm (so in a few of the worlds he visited he got his @ss handed to him big time) and should he ever feel discontented enough in any of those worlds he would be returned to the crossroads until he found one where he could find some kind of contentment. Now the only reason the Hulk returned from the crossroads wasn't so much because "it didnt work out" as Bendis has Strange describe it, but because he was brought back to Earth by an unwitting Alpha Flight (with an assist by the Beyonder).

But this exile is space in just inflicting the Hulk on someone else isnt it? Surely they would have to assume he could find an inhabited world at some point and with no safeguard in place by Strange what they fear he could do on Earth he could do elsewhere.
And they wonder why alien races in the MU generally don't like us very much...

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I think Namor's reaction was fine. He has fought both against and alongside the Hulk and isn't the type to take what he would see as a dishonorable route out of the perceived problem.
Tony I could see suggesting the idea, he would see it as a practical solution, but Reed? No way. I mean this is the guy who saved Galactus' life, was put on trial for it after the big G ate the Skrull homeworld, and now he is advocating setting loose another potential mass killer amongst the stars?

And the exile in space is another thing that bothers me: When Dr. Strange sent the mindless Hulk to the crossroads he made it all part of the spell that he could never enter a world where he could cause harm (so in a few of the worlds he visited he got his @ss handed to him big time) and should he ever feel discontented enough in any of those worlds he would be returned to the crossroads until he found one where he could find some kind of contentment. Now the only reason the Hulk returned from the crossroads wasn't so much because "it didnt work out" as Bendis has Strange describe it, but because he was brought back to Earth by an unwitting Alpha Flight (with an assist by the Beyonder).

But this exile is space in just inflicting the Hulk on someone else isnt it? Surely they would have to assume he could find an inhabited world at some point and with no safeguard in place by Strange what they fear he could do on Earth he could do elsewhere.
And they wonder why alien races in the MU generally don't like us very much...

Yeah that remark really pissed me off.

 

[Mr. Green]

But this exile is space in just inflicting the Hulk on someone else isnt it? Surely they would have to assume he could find an inhabited world at some point and with no safeguard in place by Strange what they fear he could do on Earth he could do elsewhere.
And they wonder why alien races in the MU generally don't like us very much...

Well, in Planet Hulk Reed tells Hulk that he is being sent to a world with nobody to harm him or hunt him down. It is supposed to be a "favor" to the Hulk. But Hulk gets SO pissed when he hears that he just saved earth to be screwed over, that he starts tearing the space ship apart. Then he and the space ship are pulled into some kind of worm hole and sent to another planet. One Reed didn't intend him to be sent to. And these aliens are actually a THREAT to Hulk, plus he is weaker because the worm hole has a weakening effect on people. In fact, Hulk is apparantly the first one to have been able to even stand up after being sent through the worm hole.

Planet Hulk is awesome read!

As far as Namor goes, Hulk and Namor have fought alongside agains the avengers, and also with the Defenders. They are more team mates than not, and Namor has a sense of honor when it comes to people that he has fought beside. He wouldn't betray someone that has helped him (and the entire MU) achieve countless victories in the past.

 

[DBM]

Maybe this has already been discussed, but I haven't been keeping up on this thread or any other Hulk ones.

Doesn't the Hulk have some kind of "sixth sense" or something that allows him to always find his way back to the place the accident originally occured at that gave him his powers? And if he does, don't Reed/Tony/Everyone know about this? And if they know about this, don't they know he always finds his way back? And if so, why did they bother with this?