When Did 616 Hulk Start Killing?

[The Question]

It's still one of Banner's personalities. It's still a part of him.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

It's still one of Banner's personalities. It's still a part of him.

How can it be a part of him when it was once when banner's mind was sent to a seperate universe and the second time he was a seperate being?

 

[wobbly]

They stated at the time Banner was physically seperated that the mindless Hulk was a 'blank slate', with nothing of Banners persona/s in there at all, and when exiled to the crossroads banners mind & influence was so deeply submerged this was effectively the same condition. Bottom line, the mindless Hulk is a condition that can be forced on him only by removing Banners mind (and all his various persona's) from the equation.

I think the confusion here is defining those moments when he has been majorly p#ssed off as also being mindless. That isn't the case though as in those moments he can be calmed down*, whereas in a truely mindless state he can't.

*The only instance I know of (there could be more, I just dont know of em') where this wasn't possible was when an attempt to cure him by fitting a pace-maker to his heart failed (instead of keeping his heart beat slow it was slowly affected by the gamma radiation and sped it up keeping him constantly angry) and Iron-Man had to knock him out to stop him.

 

[Shadowknight]

re: Hulk being a mindless monster without Banner. While somewhat amoral, he retained a normal intellect after being separated from Banner during the Heroes Reborn fiascoe. Didn't go on a rampage, though he did conquer an island for a bit.

 

[gildea]

come on though thats nothing i conquered 2 islands last week alone.

 

[Mr. Green]

No, it doesn't. And yes, he has. He's gone mindless more that twice. He's just rampaged through cities for the hell of it more than twice.

Okay, how about you read the actual story with mindless Hulk in it so you can grasp the idea that there is a difference between Savage Hulk and MINDLESS Hulk. It would help if you knew what you were talking about before you became so adamant about things. You do not know what mindless Hulk is, and I was simply trying to explain it.

Why is it impossible?

Because he hasn't rampaged through any towns in the Bruce Jones' run or PAD's most recent run. It would be IMPOSSIBLE. 100% NOT POSSIBLE.

Notice how the people who argue against the Hulk the most don't know anything about the character.

 

[Grim Goblin]

No offense green but I already made my point in my previous post so either you missed it or you didn't want to comment.

 

[BrianWilly]

Your reasoning for the fact that Hulk hasn't killed anyone is because...no one has shown him killing anyone?

The very point that everyone has been making is that it isn't reasonable to portray him in that sort of light. It's completely inaccurate to the reality of the character. It takes the lethal ramifications of the Hulk and dumbs it down so that we can have some PG-rated, idealistic, and -- most significantly -- unrealistic rendition of a character.

All those tanks thrown, and not one soldier dead?

All those buildings smashed, and not one civilian casualty?

That's just simply not possible in a world where one small mistake -- just one -- is going to send Gwen Stacy's neck a-snappin'. I'm not talking about not plausible as in "A normal guy can't absorb gamma rays and become a green giant!", I'm talking about it not being plausible in the context of the Marvel universe.

Maybe if we were in the Tiny Toons universe, or the Power Rangers universe, where no one ever gets seriously hurt and everything always ends up okay...but we're not.

 

[wobbly]

Can anyone who is adamant it is unrealistic for the Hulk to have never killed post examples that have appeared in the books of him doing something in his usual state (not mindless or influenced) that should have killed someone (either a soldier or a civillian)?

My reason for asking is that I haven't read all things hulk so it may well have happened but to the best of my recollection I cant remember any occasion where I saw him do something and thought it was really absurd that no-one died as a result.

My memory of the character is that his rampages, especially those in populated areas, were isolated incidents rather than regular occurences, usually brought on by some villain or the military themselves provoking him, and even then more often than not he wasn't a careless smasher of anything in sight (not when he isnt mindless): he would often fight with a natural cunning that could surprise the hell out of his opponents. For me I took it as a given that when he started smashing his opponents about he (like most other heroes) took into account his surroundings and wouldn't put an innocent at risk just to beat his enemies. Bottom line: he always had a base morality, even in his gray persona, that would keep him from harming innocents.

I dunno though, maybe I've never got the character at all, but if that is the case then neither has Stan Lee...

 

[The Question]

When he's fighting the military, I highly doubt he's concerned about being a clean and virtuous person. He's tossed around tanks, plowed through groups of soldiers, thrown men around like ragdolls, and had missiles explode on his chest in close proximity to the soldiers. And not a one of them has died? Also, Joe Fixit may not kill average people on the street, but I highly doubt he'd have a problem with killing soliders if they're firing at him.

 

[Shadowknight]

The Grey Hulk fought the military in the issue after the Green Hulk personality re-emerged. He didn't kill anyone by accident or on purpose. He threw a tank at Doc Samson, but only because he knew he would catch it, then took advantage of that to sucker punch Samson. He stomped on the ground to knock the soldiers off their feet instead of trying to kill them, and even commented that he'd have to take out the soldiers so they'd wouldn't kill themselves by accident.

 

[euroq]

Bendis comments on this:

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66106

Q: In She-Hulk #4 just 2 months ago, it was revealed that the Hulk has NEVER killed a civilian. So why are Tony Stark and S.H.I.E.L.D. saying that the Hulk has killed and continues to kill civilians? I don't get it. Is the Hulk a murderer or not?

BB: Remember in the Hulk movie when the Hulk threw a tank with a guy inside it across the desert and it crashes and the guy gets out of the tank unscathed? Didn’t that seem like complete and utter ________ to you? It did to me. I’m not saying the Hulk is a squeezing a guy’s head until his eyeballs pop out murderer but when Hulk smashes ____ gets ____ed up and people get hurt. You can’t knock down a building and everyone inside brushes off and goes to lunch. It's ridiculous.

 

[wobbly]

Bendis comments on this:

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66106

So Bendis throws established continuity out of the window because he doesn't agree with it? Talk about arrogant...

And he really ought to avoid talking about 'ridiculous' things in comics. His own track record aint exactly spotless regarding remarkably stupid ideas making their way into his books.

 

[The Question]

But really, the remark in She Hulk came from a relative of Bruce's who always tries to see him in a better light than he actually is. I mean, if you think about it, Jen sugar coats things when talking about Bruce alot.

 

[deathshead2]

So Bendis throws established continuity out of the window because he doesn't agree with it? Talk about arrogant...

And he really ought to avoid talking about 'ridiculous' things in comics. His own track record aint exactly spotless regarding remarkably stupid ideas making their way into his books.

You got to remember Bendis doesn't listin to other people he doesn't care about what they say. Heck on his own message board he bans people for saying bad things about his work. Hopefully a few years after bendis leaves someone will write off everything he and Joe Q have done to marvel.

 

[deathshead2]

But really, the remark in She Hulk came from a relative of Bruce's who always tries to see him in a better light than he actually is. I mean, if you think about it, Jen sugar coats things when talking about Bruce alot.

Well people never have seen him kill unless its someone who is super evil or something.RIGHT?

 

[The Question]

As someone said earlyer, he killed several soldiers when he traveled to the future and fought himself. But yeah, mostly he's stuck to offing the major baddies.

 

[Grim Goblin]

As I said before, check Incredible Hulk #316.

On page 3, a tv reporter named Dianne Bellamy states that the number of deaths caused by the Hulk's rampage might reach the hundreds. Wonderman also confirm that there were deaths caused by the Hulk when Samson tells all 4 avengers to **** off!!!.

Yeah, he was mindless but the name of this thread is "When Did 616 Hulk Start Killing?" not "When did 616 Bruce Banner start killing?" so I think the point is valid.

 

[BrianWilly]

I'm going to agree 100% with Bendis on this. And I hate Bendis, so make of that what you will. When something is BS, it is just BS and nothing's going to change that.

 

[Mr. Green]

Yep, that was in Incredible Hulk #316.

That book featured the mindless Hulk (without Banner), and a tv reporter named Dianne Bellamy states on page 3 that the number of deaths caused by the Hulk's rampage might reach the hundreds. Wonderman also confirm that there were deaths caused by the Hulk when Samson tells all 4 avengers to back off.

He may have been mindless but that was still Hulk who killed thos people.

Well, if you really want a response just read the countless posts by myself and others explaining why Mindless Hulk is nothing like Hulk.

Mindless Hulk isn't Banner (and Banner is Hulk) just like the Iron Man suit is not Tony Stark.

 

[Mr. Green]

All those buildings smashed, and not one civilian casualty?

Oh really? I'm sure you have an example out of the comics where Hulk smashes a building full of civillians and nobody gets hurt, right? I mean, unless you don't even read the Hulk of course. Unless you know absolutley nothing about the character.

If you agree with Bendis on this one, you agree with ignoring continuity.

Notice how gives an example from the Hulk MOVIE to support his point. I guess if he's doing that he can go ahead and change Hulk's origin too.

God, I used to support Bendis... NOW I HATE HIM.

 

[wobbly]

I think Bendis's comments show that he, like some here, have made the same mistake as many characters have been shown to do in the comic books themselves: they misunderstand the Hulk. They have a picture of him as this marauding merciless ravager of cities and that just isn't the case. That was one thing the writers (of the book itself and not some 'event' tie-in) would usually keep consistent. Basically, instead of attacking the guy on this false assumption they should just leave him the hell alone, as left to his own devices he wouldn't harm anyone (well, not anyone who didn't ask for it!!).

Re: Mindless Hulk maybe having killed in #316: As stated that was a Hulk completely free of any of Banner/Hulks influence and he was only in that condition due to Doc Samson's interference in the first place. Also, I haven't got the issue anymore myself but as best I can recall they never showed him do anything that would/should have killed any innocents? (the reporter was speculating and Wonder-Man was assuming?)

 

[gildea]

as said in future imperfect hulk smashes a building and kills someone.

 

[Genesis 1.0]

I'm going to agree 100% with Bendis on this. And I hate Bendis, so make of that what you will. When something is BS, it is just BS and nothing's going to change that.

Yeah, the general Bendis hate around here seems to make them extremely biased because what Bendis just said makes PERFECT sense. I agree 100% but then again you can never make everyone happy, if he'd said something on the complete opposite of the spectrum there would still be a contingent to be upset. Just take it with a grain of salt.

 

[rjb182]

For the purpose of this argument, does it even MATTER whether it's the mindless Hulk that has killed people or not? That means something if you're trying to decide whether Bruce Banner is a hero... *not* when you're trying to decide, as the Illuminati apparently did, whether or not the Hulk's presence on Earth is a threat.

The public at large doesn't really know when the Hulk is "mindless"-- they just know he's a big, green guy who occasionally goes berserk and gets *really* dangerous.

Even if he only ever became mindless Hulk twice-- the third time it happens might destroy a city. They still might have decided to send him into space, no matter whose "fault" it was.