Comics Which Spidey villain has Marvel screwed up [the most]

[Silver Sable]

Do you mean screwed up like their history or their appearance?

 

[Red]

Both, I think.

Thats how I did it.

 

[Red]

Or it shows that anyone with enough $$$$ can have him do whatever they want. Stan made it clear that money talks for someone like Gargan.

He was subjecting himself to genetic change, having absolutely no idea about what it does or the possible side effects. He was just interested in being paid the right price.

As I said, that hardly shows intelligence:

Off topic here, but you have anymore scans of Scorpions early appearances?

 

[DACrowe]

The character.

Like turning Lizard from Jekyll/Hyde to a rampaging monster. And he CHOOSES to be evil instead now.

Like turning Venom into an anti-hero and then having him give his symbiote away to someone else because he is "repenting."

Like Green Goblin coming back from the dead and being behind every bad thing that happened to Peter....EVER. Honestly, I'm waiting for the reveal that HE killed Uncle Ben now.

Get the idea, then?

 

[Cyclops]

Well, whatever. I still think that Scorpion has always had a certain level of intelligence higher than Jim Carrey-esque raging moron.

 

[DACrowe]

True. Maybe.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Green Goblin,his death was one of the best stories in Spider-Man history.Why would they want to bring him back?His "relationship" with Gwen is equally bad.

 

[ragingdemon155]

Venom easily.

This guy was a legit threat when he was first introduced. I mean usually I see Spider-man stand around and throw his classic one liners at his enemies. Hell most of the time Spider-man was just trying to survive against Venom and more times then not ended up trying to run. He was such a fun character to read because like some have already mentioned in this thread he was the polar opposite of Spider-man. They should have kept his character like that.

Damn I loved the fight drawn by Bagley in issues 374 and 375. So brutal.

Marvel screwed him over bigtime when they gave him his own series and it continued after that.

Venom back in his day had Spider-man terrified and threatened in a way that no other villain could.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

i can see how with venom people think his characterisation was originally weak and he was a one-trick pony. He was psychotic and he hated spider-man for an irrational reason -- he simply hated peter parker. i believe he was the first of SM's villains to be like this.

But psychosis itself can be an interesting driving force. for me it is far more interesting than the original driving force behind many of spidey's early "classic" villains: they rob and bank/ hurt somebody/ steal something other than money and spider-man defeats them. they get angry. they plan revenge. i know such characters have since been developed but this psychosis that originally drove venom, channelled through an alien symbiote who shares and amplifies those feelings should be interesting. Venom also knows Spider-Man's identity as "Dock Ock" previously said.

this seems like more than one trick to me. he was just messed around with and taken in the worng direction. the anti-hero vibe was, like SO 90s. it prevented him from attacking the "innocent" MJ. GG always used the ID thing to torment pete and venom should have done the same. of course currently that's null and void.

eventually all venom could do was moan about eating brains, fool pete's spider-sense and attack him as spider-man only, in which battle venom would eventually (obviously) lose with no change to pete's status quo and so having little to no effect. this is *yawns* boring. the most interesting thing he did WAS to spawn new symbiotes and give away his own symbiote cos that gave the writers a clean slate to have a better go at writing a "venom" character.

my only point is that venom should have been interesting. heck he WAS interesting at first and more than a one trick pony. subsequent years of abuse from marvel, particularly the laughable attempts at making him a hero, ruined the character. half the things GG has done could have and should have been split with venom.

so basically im agreeing with the poll so far and saying marvel destroyed him-- thats why i like scorpion venom.clean slate. but heck im babbling. i still think doc ock hasnt done anything good ina while, and marvel should concentrate on him.he was in thunderbolts last so that could be kind of cool.

 

[The Joker]

i still think doc ock hasnt done anything good in a while, and marvel should concentrate on him.

Ock is doing just fine.

In 2004 in a 5 part arc in Spectacular Spider-Man, he kidnapped a Palestinian ambassador, causing the threat of war to break out, and tried to force Spider-Man to unmask himself in Times Square.

Great story. Ock was ruthless as hell in it. Loved the bit where he snapped the Police officer's neck in front of Spider-Man.

The fact that you think [wrongly too] that Ock hasn't done anything major in a while, that constitutes him as being the most ruined villain, well that is really stupid IMO. You can't have every villain in a major story every year.

If being left out of the loop for a while ruins a villain, then Electro, Hobgoblin and Mysterio should be butchered to hell by Marvel. It's actually quite an amusing irony, Venom and GG are ruined because they are used TOO MUCH!

 

[DACrowe]

Indeed I loved that story. It was like Jenkins was on a batting average high. I hated the art in Spectacular but his characters were so well developed and yes human and he nailed Peter being dorky and funny.

Then he started nailing classic villains one after the other. His ending to the Green Goblin and Spider-Man story arc is brilliant and the best story arc of the green goblin since of course ASM #122. Then Doc Ock got it right with that great storyline which was the best Ock had been used since being ressurected himself. Then he nailed Venom and brought him back to his roots making him an interesting character again and no more anti-hero.

Of course then we get Mark Millar screwing that up by adding Gargan to Venom and making GG more Mackie-esque. Then finally we get Jenkins downturn by ****ing up the Lizard as already said, Sandman and lastly Sins Remembered. He burned out. Kind of like what JMS is doing....one year ago.

Oy, though.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Venom.

He hasn't been half way decent since the 80's. .

That would have made him OK for a little over a year and a half.

 

[Sloth7d]

They screwed the Tracer.
They should not have killed him off.
He was one of the better new villains Spidey has had in a while.

 

[Kraven]

They screwed the Tracer.
They should not have killed him off.
He was one of the better new villains Spidey has had in a while.

I agree, he was a really cool new villain. I think I heard that PAD said somewhere though that he had plans for him in the future, so I'm not sure if he's dead or not.

 

[Venom 1988]

That would have made him OK for a little over a year and a half.

IMO yea, for the most part, at least until Carnage appeared

 

[Lantern Venom]

IMO yea, for the most part, at least until Carnage appeared

As you might expect, I've enjoyed just about all the twists and turns of Venom over the years. I didn't mind the anti-hero storylines because Venom always seemed ambivalent about being a true villian outside of his hatred for Sipdey.

Currently, I think the new Venom has been mishandled a bit. Gargan + the symbiote should be all but unstoppable. I'm hoping that the symbiote replicated and left another in Eddie's bloodstream that awakens a new version of Venom that will be anxious to battle the Scorpio-Venom.

 

[ragingdemon155]

I hate the idea of the "Venom Scorpion" combo.

I want old classic Eddie Brock Venom. The one that would stalk Spider-man and force Spidey to fight for his life.

 

[November Rain]

Or it shows that anyone with enough $$$$ can have him do whatever they want. Stan made it clear that money talks for someone like Gargan.

He was subjecting himself to genetic change, having absolutely no idea about what it does or the possible side effects. He was just interested in being paid the right price.

As I said, that hardly shows intelligence:

there are plenty of people that would do things for money though, or put themselves through unecessary risks which calculated thought would have allowed for them avoid.

besides, this doesn't reflect on his ability to be a private eye though and the skills and intelligence needed for his trade.

pretty much like movie spidey doesn't reflect the intelligence required for parker to take the courses he does, even though it's not talked about, it doesn't mean it isn't there.

motivation and ability i don't think can be used to compare one another...but that's just me.

 

[The Joker]

there are plenty of people that would do things for money though, or put themselves through unecessary risks which calculated thought would have allowed for them avoid.

Yes, they're called stupid people Certainly in the case of the risk Gargan was taking there.

besides, this doesn't reflect on his ability to be a private eye though and the skills and intelligence needed for his trade.

Maybe.

But Stan never established just how good Gargan was as a P.I. Just that Jonah hired him to follow Peter around.

I'm not saying Gargan is completely stupid. But I certainly don't believe he's intelligent either based on what we've been shown of him.

pretty much like movie spidey doesn't reflect the intelligence required for parker to take the courses he does, even though it's not talked about, it doesn't mean it isn't there.

motivation and ability i don't think can be used to compare one another...but that's just me.

The movie characters are pale imitations of the comic characters, save maybe Jonah Jameson and Aunt May. So I wouldn't use them as an example. Stick to the comic characters, that's what we're discussing here.

 

[November Rain]

well didn't ock put himself through an unecessary ordeal by working while bereaved which led to his accident and not putting his full concentration to the work at hand?

there are plenty of things stan never did in his earlier editions in the comics, character development and creation stories couldn't take up large quantaties of space so i believe some things were just left to be assumed or perhaps ignored and left under the rug. the gargan PI issue and his level of intelligence is one of them.

the movie reference is legit, it's not used for anything else rather than to draw a parallel of how latent intelligence is not always portrayed because it's easier to ignore to forward a specific story.


in all, the level of intelligence he should have is rarely shown if at all, although his skills at finding people can be assumed as he has managed to find and kidnap jonah at least once in the past and leave relatively no trail as to his whereabouts...

 

[The Joker]

well didn't ock put himself through an unecessary ordeal by working while bereaved which led to his accident and not putting his full concentration to the work at hand?

Ock's incident was an accident. That was established in ASM #3. He did not purposely do that to himself. Burying yourself in your work to forget a personal pain is the way many people deal with grief.

Gargan deliberately did this to himself, not even caring about what this could of done to his brain or anything else. All for a miserable few grand.

It's not like he was desperate for the cash, or had someone who was depending on him to provide for them. No he was just greedy. All he saw was dollar signs. To hell with the consequences.

That is dumb.

there are plenty of things stan never did in his earlier editions in the comics, character development and creation stories couldn't take up large quantaties of space so i believe some things were just left to be assumed or perhaps ignored and left under the rug. the gargan PI issue and his level of intelligence is one of them.

Again, maybe so.

But I'm judging Gargan on what we've been shown. And what we've been shown is a P.I. who's willing to risk his brain being wrecked and being turned into some genetic monster, regardless of any consequences, and all for a measly few grand.

You can assume Gargan was smarter than this just because he was a P.I. But we never saw this intelligence. Stan didn't even label him as a great P.I. or a famous P.I. like he labelled Octavius and Osborn great and famous scientists. In Ock's case, he was one of the country's top atomic researchers.

the movie reference is legit, it's not used for anything else rather than to draw a parallel of how latent intelligence is not always portrayed because it's easier to ignore to forward a specific story.

Ok. But Peter in the movie has shown some smarts. Especially regarding Ock's scheme with the reactor of doom he was building.

in all, the level of intelligence he should have is rarely shown if at all

That's my point. We've never been shown this intelligence. That was my original qualm with Cyclop's remark. Gargan has never come across as smart.

 

[November Rain]

Ock's incident was an accident. That was established in ASM #3. He did not purposely do that to himself. Burying yourself in your work to forget a personal pain is the way many people deal with grief.

Gargan deliberately did this to himself, not even caring about what this could of done to his brain or anything else. All for a miserable few grand.

It's not like he was desperate for the cash, or had someone who was depending on him to provide for them. No he was just greedy. All he saw was dollar signs. To hell with the consequences.

That is dumb.

true an accident but still going in to work while still handling bereavement is not a smart move. I'm pretty sure most drink n drive incidents are accidents but it still reflects on the fact that the drivers were behind the wheel intoxicated. It still shouldn't have happened if ock was properly dealing with the emotions of (not sure if i remember properly, but was it his mother's death? )

again, there are many people who offer their bodies for testing of products without fully knowing the extent of what may happen to them

Again, maybe so.

But I'm judging Gargan on what we've been shown. And what we've been shown is a P.I. who's willing to risk his brain being wrecked and being turned into some genetic monster, regardless of any consequences, and all for a measly grand.

perhaps he bought into the 'superhero celebrity who defeated spider-man' jargan that jonah had used to convince him, or was it purely based on the amount of money being offered?

i mean look at doc conners, he practically did a similar thing although his motivation was a limb rather than money. I mean i would say he was smarter than gargan but what he did in comparison was much dumber because he understood the risks and still went on anyway, even with all his expertise on the subject. BUT i would never call conners an idiot, nor has he been portrayed in that manner

You can assume Gargan was smarter than this just because he was a P.I. But we never saw this intelligence. Stan didn't even label him as a great P.I. or a famous P.I. like he labelled Octavius and Osborn great and famous scientists. In Ock's case, he was one of the country's top atomic researchers.

that's what we are trying to say i suppose. based on the assumptions of his job, we expect him to be a smarter individual but we never get it, hence why marvel screwed him up. The fact that jonah goes after him either reflects he is good at what he does or the fact that he is going through a rough patch and is tempted via the money. I'm not trying to say he's a genuis but he has come across as a complete idiot at times with no real clue as to what is going on.

Ok. But Peter in the movie has shown some smarts. Especially regarding Ock's scheme with the reactor of doom he was building.

you miss what i said, i said spider-man has never shown any intelligence. even though it's implied parker is smart, spidey isn't really smart in battle. the same person being shown with different levels of intelligence. could be the same with gargan but since we never really get to see him doing what he does, we can't see how good he is at what he does for a profession. (imagine seeing spidey film with about six minutes cut from both films showing spideys intelligence, baring that, one would never could tell how smart he was supposed to be). that's how i feel about gargan personally. untapped potential.

That's my point. We've never been shown this intelligence. That was my original qualm with Cyclop's remark. Gargan has never come across as smart.

so it comes down to interpretation.

he's never come across as smart so you don't think he is smart. However i guess myself and cyclops believe that based on his profession, he should be smart and since the intelligence has never been thrown into the mix, he's been screwed into being a charicature.

no real right or wrong, it just depends on how one had adapted to the character i suppose. I personally believe if you give someone a back story, then it should be reflected in the character.

i'm sure there are plenty of spidey villains that never are written as intelligently as they should be.

 

[The Joker]

true an accident but still going in to work while still handling bereavement is not a smart move. I'm pretty sure most drink n drive incidents are accidents but it still reflects on the fact that the drivers were behind the wheel intoxicated.

True, he probably should not have been working while grieving for his mother's death, but then Osborn shouldn't have been messing with the Goblin serum at home.

But the difference with Octavius and Osborn is that they didn't know/believe they were in danger. Osborn believed his formula was safe, Octavius was working to forget his grief. They were not doing something deliberately dangerous and not caring like Gargan was.

He was WARNED by Stillwell. But he didn't care. Money was all he wanted.

again, there are many people who offer their bodies for testing of products without fully knowing the extent of what may happen to them

And like I said, those people are stupid, especially if it may seriously damage their BRAIN!!

perhaps he bought into the 'superhero celebrity who defeated spider-man' jargan that jonah had used to convince him, or was it purely based on the amount of money being offered?

He just did for the cash, as shown in the scan I posted. Money talks for Gargan.

i mean look at doc conners, he practically did a similar thing although his motivation was a limb rather than money. I mean i would say he was smarter than gargan but what he did in comparison was much dumber because he understood the risks and still went on anyway, even with all his expertise on the subject. BUT i would never call conners an idiot, nor has he been portrayed in that manner

Connors had a missing arm he was trying to grow back. Gargan had no physical deformities. He had no reason to put himself thru such a dangerous change. He was just being greedy.

Even Stilwell didn't know what exactly this would do to him. But Gargan didn't care. That is stupid of him.

that's what we are trying to say i suppose. based on the assumptions of his job, we expect him to be a smarter individual but we never get it, hence why marvel screwed him up. The fact that jonah goes after him either reflects he is good at what he does or the fact that he is going through a rough patch and is tempted via the money. I'm not trying to say he's a genuis but he has come across as a complete idiot at times with no real clue as to what is going on.

Well by your reckoning Marvel screwed him up from the get go. Because Stan never showed him as a smart guy either.

The other writers just followed Stan's lead.

you miss what i said, i said spider-man has never shown any intelligence. even though it's implied parker is smart, spidey isn't really smart in battle.

Smart in battle?? What do you want him to do?? He's saved kids from falling debris, caught a tram full of kids and saved MJ at the same time, stopped a speeding train full of people, and shut down Ock's reactor despite Octavius trying to stop him at the demonstration.

I'm not sure what smarts you're expecting him to show. I just wish he'd quip more in battle. That's what movie Spidey is missing.

he's never come across as smart so you don't think he is smart. However i guess myself and cyclops believe that based on his profession, he should be smart and since the intelligence has never been thrown into the mix, he's been screwed into being a charicature.

I'm not arguing that.

What I am arguing is that Cyclops said Scorpion has been changed from an intelligent guy into a dumb guy.

When was he ever shown as intelligent?? That's what boggles me.

I personally believe if you give someone a back story, then it should be reflected in the character.

I agree. But we never saw just how good a P.I. Gargan was. Stan never said how good he was at his profession like he did with Octavius and Osborn.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

Ock is doing just fine.

In 2004 in a 5 part arc in Spectacular Spider-Man, he kidnapped a Palestinian ambassador, causing the threat of war to break out, and tried to force Spider-Man to unmask himself in Times Square.

Great story. Ock was ruthless as hell in it. Loved the bit where he snapped the Police officer's neck in front of Spider-Man.

The fact that you think [wrongly too] that Ock hasn't done anything major in a while, that constitutes him as being the most ruined villain, well that is really stupid IMO. You can't have every villain in a major story every year.

If being left out of the loop for a while ruins a villain, then Electro, Hobgoblin and Mysterio should be butchered to hell by Marvel. It's actually quite an amusing irony, Venom and GG are ruined because they are used TOO MUCH!

i just thought, reading SSM 28, that the references were so old. doctor octopus has too many stories where he's beaten after he tries to steal something.i just thought such an interesting villain should use his head more, but the story you referred to i havn't actually read and will try to get. thanx

 

[November Rain]

i'll get to some of these points when i get back in tomorrow, although i feel it may perhaps carry this thread off topic. perhaps i'll give you a buzz on msn where we can continue this.

take care and good evening...