Superman II Which Superman II is Best?

[Thebumwhowalks]

I looked up the Donner version again and I wouldn't say it was the better version. I thought some of the scenes were better. Like the scene with Lois jumping out of the Daily Planet window and Clark 'swooshing' down to the street through the Bullpen, sheets of paper and everything flying around, I really liked that. But also the scene where Clark and Lois have the conversation in the hotel where Lois shoots him with blank. Those two scenes, to me, should've been included in the second movie, rather than the lame scenes with the fire and where Lois jumps in the river...

What I don't like about that first scene is that Lois just suddenly sees through Clark's act and glasses disguise for no dramatic reason, and when you are going into the Superman mythos, you make the agreement that you are buying that whole aspect, that his act and his physical disguise works.
Whereas, in the Lester cut, we get a good reason for her suspicions, and the fictional conceit of his act/glasses working remains intact...Superman just so happens to show up in Niagra Falls when Clark and Lois are there, and Clark is not around when Supes is there.
Also...Clark leaves to much to chance for Lois's survival in the Donner cut..she falls out of a building and he depends on his super breath and an awning? Just for the sake of his secret I.D.? She could still have broken her neck easily.

The scene with Lois jumping into the rapids is a more plausible survival than the one with her jumping out of a building...it's not as dangerous, Clark can keep an eye on her while he thinks of a way to save her without blowing his secret I.D., and if she really gets into trouble until he does that, he can jump in and rescue her.
I also much prefer her speech to him before she jumps in, and the final bit where she emerges from the river and says 'This is really embaressing..' is v funny. I don't see how the scene is 'lame' at all.

and the blank bullet...I never bought that Superman would have fallen for that ruse, if Lois was pointing a gun at him, surely he would look at it with his x-ray vision to see if she was bluffing with an empty gun, or he would know the difference between getting hit by a real bullet or not, due to his super-senses.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

In the Donner version, Superman is basically a bully at the end. He goads the man into taking a swipe at him, and then beats him up. However, he might have just been an innocent customer minding his own business and trying to get some lunch. Who is to say he had any of those bullyish qualities in this reality?

Donner must have filmed the diner return scene without having in mind the aspect that Superman reversed time. The bully and the people in the diner all obviously recognise Clark from the first incident.
and, we have to remember that the bully did not fight fair at all in that first encounter, he hit Clark from behind into a window, and then sucker punched him when Clark went back up to him after that.
So, Clark doesn't have the opportunity to go back powerless and have a one on one with him..should he just let that guy get away with his bullying and dirty fighting?
Well, y'know, fug it, why not go back to teach him a lesson? Isn't that his job anyway?
He goes back with his powers, gives the guy a sarcastic comment(which is actually a continuation if their initial encounter of course), and lets him break his hand on his stomach. Then sits his ass on his dinner and pushes him into a pinball machine, which was quite tame by comparison to what he did to him in the first encounter.

The worst thing that happens to him is that he breaks his hand, and the guy did that to himself by striking first. But he makes the mistake of thinking Clark is an easy mark by this time, so Clark lets him make his own mistake, Clark wouldn't have struck him first of course.
So, the bully is taught a lesson, maybe he won't be so quick to underestimate someone next time, so it's a good thing that Clark went back.

Anyway, I am just talking about the film here, not any kind of subtext for anything else.

 

[mikey1974]

my ideal cut of the film would be to keep the Lester cut except for these things...

1)after the Paris rescue, put in the Planet scene where Lois puts 2 + 2 together...

2) have the extended Lex and Otis in prison/escape scenes...

3) in the Fortress,have the Jor-El scenes with Luthor

4) in the fortress have Superman sleep with Lois,not Clark...

5) have the Jor-El version of the depowering scenes...

6) have the Kryptonians destroy the Washington Monument instead of Mount Rushmore again...

7) have the White House assault be the Donner version...

8) Kal-El repowered by Jor-El scene....

9) the ending in the Donner cut in the Fortress (and it's destruction) be included...

10) keep the extended scene at Lois' apartment...

so,basically,it would be the Lester version with some of the Donner cut included/replacing some scenes...i'd definitely keep the Lester ending past Superman flying away from Lois' apartment....

 

[Nevaratoiel]

What I don't like about that first scene is that Lois just suddenly sees through Clark's act and glasses disguise for no dramatic reason, and when you are going into the Superman mythos, you make the agreement that you are buying that whole aspect, that his act and his physical disguise works.
Whereas, in the Lester cut, we get a good reason for her suspicions, and the fictional conceit of his act/glasses working remains intact...Superman just so happens to show up in Niagra Falls when Clark and Lois are there, and Clark is not around when Supes is there.
Also...Clark leaves to much to chance for Lois's survival in the Donner cut..she falls out of a building and he depends on his super breath and an awning? Just for the sake of his secret I.D.? She could still have broken her neck easily.

The scene with Lois jumping into the rapids is a more plausible survival than the one with her jumping out of a building...it's not as dangerous, Clark can keep an eye on her while he thinks of a way to save her without blowing his secret I.D., and if she really gets into trouble until he does that, he can jump in and rescue her.
I also much prefer her speech to him before she jumps in, and the final bit where she emerges from the river and says 'This is really embaressing..' is v funny. I don't see how the scene is 'lame' at all.

and the blank bullet...I never bought that Superman would have fallen for that ruse, if Lois was pointing a gun at him, surely he would look at it with his x-ray vision to see if she was bluffing with an empty gun, or he would know the difference between getting hit by a real bullet or not, due to his super-senses.

I never said the timing of those particular scenes was better. I agree with you that in the Donner version Lois suddenly sees him for who he is, without any real backstory. I could imagine this scene (the first one in the Donner version) turning up somewhere else in the movie. And the same with the shooting Clark scene. But still, when placed well they are good scenes.

And about the bullet. He's invulnerable, so he's bound NOT to check the bullet... because it cannot hurt him... I thought the dialogue was good...

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I never said the timing of those particular scenes was better. I agree with you that in the Donner version Lois suddenly sees him for who he is, without any real backstory. I could imagine this scene (the first one in the Donner version) turning up somewhere else in the movie. And the same with the shooting Clark scene. But still, when placed well they are good scenes.

Ok, so you would want to see some backstory as to why Lois' suspicions aroused before that scene, you just prefer it to the river rescue, fair enough.

And about the bullet. He's invulnerable, so he's bound NOT to check the bullet... because it cannot hurt him... I thought the dialogue was good...

But also, you'd think he wouldn't believe Lois would truly put Clark's life at risk like that with her theory, so he would think she was bluffing and use his x-ray vision to check the gun for bullets, revealing it was blanks in the process.

even if you want to believe that Clark wouldn't be able to tell if he was hit by a bullet(which I'm not too sure about, surely he would be able to smell gunpowder, even if he did not feel the bullet), i think there is a hole in the logic as he would be suspicious of Lois being serious about shooting Clark to prove a theory, and use his powers to check.

 

[Dark Raven]

my ideal cut of the film would be to keep the Lester cut except for these things...

1)after the Paris rescue, put in the Planet scene where Lois puts 2 + 2 together...

2) have the extended Lex and Otis in prison/escape scenes...

3) in the Fortress,have the Jor-El scenes with Luthor

4) in the fortress have Superman sleep with Lois,not Clark...

5) have the Jor-El version of the depowering scenes...

6) have the Kryptonians destroy the Washington Monument instead of Mount Rushmore again...

7) have the White House assault be the Donner version...

8) Kal-El repowered by Jor-El scene....

9) the ending in the Donner cut in the Fortress (and it's destruction) be included...

10) keep the extended scene at Lois' apartment...

so,basically,it would be the Lester version with some of the Donner cut included/replacing some scenes...i'd definitely keep the Lester ending past Superman flying away from Lois' apartment....

I would hope that Superman would sleep with Lois and not Clark. Why would Superman sleep with Clark? That would just be solo sex.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I would hope that Superman would sleep with Lois and not Clark. Why would Superman sleep with Clark? That would just be solo sex.

No, if he gets ahold of some of that Gus Gorman tar kryptonite, he can split into two, and give himself the old 'junkyard special', as he calls it, haha.

 

[Dark Raven]

No, if he gets ahold of some of that Gus Gorman tar kryptonite, he can split into two, and give himself the old 'junkyard special', as he calls it, haha.

Yes, all that activity between Superman and Clark might tire them out!!

 

[Mace Dolex]

and the blank bullet...I never bought that Superman would have fallen for that ruse, if Lois was pointing a gun at him, surely he would look at it with his x-ray vision to see if she was bluffing with an empty gun, or he would know the difference between getting hit by a real bullet or not, due to his super-senses.

I was thinking the same thing about that when the those screen tests were included with the very first DVD releases of STM, but I figured at that point Donner just wanted to see what chemistry Reeve and Kidder had.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I was thinking the same thing about that when the those screen tests were included with the very first DVD releases of STM, but I figured at that point Donner just wanted to see what chemistry Reeve and Kidder had.

aye, I was thinking much the same when I first saw the scene, it seemed like an initial idea that they hadn't thought through properly, so they did a re-write when it came time to film the movie properly.

 

[Nevaratoiel]

yeah, I guess that was the point. It could've been one hell of a scene if it was executed better. The same thing with the other scene I mentioned. They both had great potential, but came a bit out of the blue. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed them the way they were shot... I enjoyed them a lot!

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

yeah, I guess that was the point. It could've been one hell of a scene if it was executed better. The same thing with the other scene I mentioned. They both had great potential, but came a bit out of the blue. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed them the way they were shot... I enjoyed them a lot!

oh no, i meant that when I first saw the Clark/Lois blank bullet scene(and I also saw it on the STM dvd extras, it was shown during the documentary iirc, same as mace dolex said there),
I didn't realise that Donner actually wanted to include that scene in his finished version of Superman II. I thought it was just one of those rough draft scenes they used for screen tests.
Because you do see that in other actor screen test footage, like with the Star Wars actors, they do lines from a scene that never made it into the final movie.
So I just assumed they thought the Niagra falls scene was the better idea, as I agreed with that choice. I mean, I assumed that Donner intended to film the re-written Niagra falls scene too.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy watching those two alternate scenes, hell, all the the alternate scenes in the Donner cut. Being someone who grew up watching the Reeve Superman movies, it was amazing to get that new version released, and with enough new footage that it was essentially a new Reeve Superman film to watch.

 

[TMC1982]

You hit it on the head! I agree with everything you said, and I too was very disappointed in the fact that the Donner version did not have that "General would you care to step outside" line (that is my Fav part of either version) Especially since almost every other part of Donner's version was better.

Also, some of Reeve's line-delivery was better (i.e. more intense less flat) in the Lester cut such as "Father!" when he returns to the Fortress after getting beaten up in the diner and "Too late Luthor...too late!"

I also didn't like Donner resorting to having Superman reverse time again in part because it pretty much meant that the whole movie never really happened. And plus, Donner was opening up a can of worms in which Superman needs to clean up a problem.

 

[TMC1982]

I heard that Richard Lester was told to re-film as much scenes as possible of which were already filmed by Donner so he (Lester) could receive a directors credit on the film, from what I've read in numerous articles dating back to the 90's the theatrical cut of Superman II has only about 30% of Donner footage which all include Gene Hackman because he (Hackman) didn't come back to film when Lester came onboard.

Margot Kidder also looks noticeably healthier in the Donner cut.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Margot Kidder also looks noticeably healthier in the Donner cut.

I never noticed any difference in her appearance in the movie, what specifically are you talking about?
imo, she gives some of her best performances in the Lester directed scenes, her speech before jumping into Niagra Falls is far superior to her corresponding act in the Donner scene where she jumps out the window...and her act at the end of the film when they are breaking up is the best performance she gave in any of the films, man, I'd say that was the best performance given by any female lead in any superhero film.

 

[Mace Dolex]

I never noticed any difference in her appearance in the movie, what specifically are you talking about?

I think what TMC1982 might be referring to is that in between STM and SII Margot Kidder's appearance looks more emaciated, her face looks more thin in Lester's footage, I think that happens when you're a smoker.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

Also, some of Reeve's line-delivery was better (i.e. more intense less flat) in the Lester cut such as "Father!" when he returns to the Fortress after getting beaten up in the diner and "Too late Luthor...too late!"

I also didn't like Donner resorting to having Superman reverse time again in part because it pretty much meant that the whole movie never really happened. And plus, Donner was opening up a can of worms in which Superman needs to clean up a problem.

The movie was meant to be as close to what Donner would have done as possible. The turning back the world scene was originally meant for Superman II and it was the Salkinds' decision to make it the ending of the first movie.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Reversing the earth's rotation to turn back time is a dumb ending in STM and it's a dumb ending in the Donner cut of Superman II. I blame the Salkinds if they came up with the idea and insisted on it. Deus ex machina - 'nuff said.

However, it works much better in the first movie where he uses it to save Lois's life...and also because this was the first big budget film adaptation of a character who is famous for basically being able to do pretty much anything. As an homage to an American icon, it works.

In the sequel, he only does it so Lois doesn't know his secret - a much more selfish reason to reverse time IMO.

Also, he only reverses the events at the very end of STM, while in the Donner cut of Superman II he literally makes it so the movie never happened. I hate these kinds of endings. It's a huge middle finger to the audience - just as bad and lame as if Clark woke up and found it was all a dream.

Finally, the scene in the diner at the end of the Donner cut doesn't work for me in the scenario where Superman reversed time. Thebumwhowalks made a good argument, but I think it's better in the Lester version because the bully recognizes Clark as the guy he pounded earlier, so the revenge is that much more sweet.

In the Donner cut Clark is just some random nerdy-looking guy the bully has never seen before (although you could say it still makes sense, because the bully calls him "four-eyes" and earns a broken hand for it). But I think the main reason we see it at the end of the Donner cut is that a) Donner shot it and b) everyone loves that scene so much they had to leave it in despite the reversing-time ending neutering much of its effectiveness.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Reversing the earth's rotation to turn back time is a dumb ending in STM and it's a dumb ending in the Donner cut of Superman II. I blame the Salkinds if they came up with the idea and insisted on it. Deus ex machina - 'nuff said.

However, it works much better in the first movie where he uses it to save Lois's life...and also because this was the first big budget film adaptation of a character who is famous for basically being able to do pretty much anything. As an homage to an American icon, it works.

In the sequel, he only does it so Lois doesn't know his secret - a much more selfish reason to reverse time IMO.

Also, he only reverses the events at the very end of STM, while in the Donner cut of Superman II he literally makes it so the movie never happened. I hate these kinds of endings. It's a huge middle finger to the audience - just as bad and lame as if Clark woke up and found it was all a dream.

Aye, it does work much better for the 1st film, and I too hate the fact that the events of SMII are reversed.

and...funnily enough, I just thought of a mistake there...those astronauts were still killed on the Moon by the trio, so those events still happened, unless Supes flew up and reversed the Moon as well, haha.

and although we do not get the great Lester scene with Lois crying, I guess we are supposed to keep in mind that supes wanted his secret kept from lois for her own sake as well, so it was not so selfish, just as the hypno-kiss was not.

Finally, the scene in the diner at the end of the Donner cut doesn't work for me in the scenario where Superman reversed time. Thebumwhowalks made a good argument, but I think it's better in the Lester version because the bully recognizes Clark as the guy he pounded earlier, so the revenge is that much more sweet.

In the Donner cut Clark is just some random nerdy-looking guy the bully has never seen before (although you could say it still makes sense, because the bully calls him "four-eyes" and earns a broken hand for it). But I think the main reason we see it at the end of the Donner cut is that a) Donner shot it and b) everyone loves that scene so much they had to leave it in despite the reversing-time ending neutering much of its effectiveness.

I think it is pretty obvious that Donner shot that 2nd diner scene without having the 'reverse time/events so they never happened.' scenario in mind. The diner owners and the bully react as if they know Clark from the previous incident, there may be nothing overt in the scene to say this, so , at a push, you can pretend that as far as they are concerned Clark is a stranger to them, but from the way they react to Clark, with no questioning of the situation, or surprise at his initial entrance with that line, it is obvious that Donner shot the scene as if they did already know Clark from the previous incident.

 

[Fudgie]

The movie was meant to be as close to what Donner would have done as possible. The turning back the world scene was originally meant for Superman II and it was the Salkinds' decision to make it the ending of the first movie.

I wish they had saved it for Supers II as originally planned.

 

[_Kal-El_]

It's quite baffling to see how many people still believe Superman turned back time for the entire planet Earth, by spinning it backwards, while it was in fact HE HIMSELF who went back in time. We only see it from his point of view. That's it. Nothing more. No alternate reality, no different versions or people or nothing of the sort.
That's why the bully still remembers Clark, and that's why he has full right of giving the guy his comeuppance.

Donner Cut all the way.
I look past all the visual differences in bulk, hairstyle, thicker or thinner cheekbones, etc... I just enjoy it for what it is.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I wish they had saved it for Supers II as originally planned.

Overall, I think it was more fitting for him to use it to save her life than to make her forget his secret ID, unless he had other reasons in Mankiewicz Superman II script, such as undoing all the death and destruction caused at the hands of Zod and co. One idea I've seen would have the Phantom Zoners kill Lois, which makes Superman go berserk, beat them all single handedly and then turn back time, undoing their escape from the Phantom Zone.

 

[_Kal-El_]

I say again:

While Superman is busy saving others, Lois's car falls into the ground due to an aftershock. It quickly fills with dirt and debris and she suffocates to death. Distraught at being unable to save Lois, Superman ignores Jor-El's warning not to interfere with human history, preferring to remember Jonathan Kent's advice that he must be on Earth for "a reason". He travels back in time in order to save Lois, altering history so that her car is never caught in the aftershock.

(1978) Superman: Superman circles the Earth at tremendous speeds allowing him to travel back in time to just before an earthquake created by Lex Luthor.

No such thing as changing the Earth's rotation, shifting the entire planet back in time. He's the only one who travels back. No one else. He arrives to the point before her death, and gets her out.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Hasn't it already been asked that if he himself was the only one going back in time, why did he have to fly forward to start the Earth spinning again?
Anyway, I voted for the Donner cut though I usually watch both films in pieces because I don't like a lot of the scenes. I prefer Donner's reveal scene and felt it made Lois look smart without making Clark/Superman stupid, at least not so stupid as to trip over a freakin pink bear skin rug into a fire! I also feel there were too many comedic scenes in the Lester cut. I also hated how Lois acted at the end of the Lester cut, being so whiny about Superman having to rush off to save the world. In the Donner version she seemed more mature about the whole thing.
On the other hand, I never thought about it that way, but Lois developing suspicions is actually a little too easy and convenient; she sees a picture and has an aha moment. But I still prefer the way she acted about in in the DC than in Lester's version.

 

[Micromind]

Superman did Not spin the Earth backwards to reverse time, that is misinterpretation, he was flying faster than speed of Light around the Earth which enabled him to go back in time (I believe that was what the film makers wanted us to believe.) and meet Lois lane alive so that he could rescue her, that means that earlier events where Lois died did happen but they exist in the alternate parallel reality.

I still feel that Superman traveled back in time is the correct way to look at it.

Hasn't it already been asked that if he himself was the only one going back in time, why did he have to fly forward to start the Earth spinning again?

I think that was unnecessary addition, just like Zod, Non and Ursa talking on Moon where there is no air.