Who here thinks THE FLASH cannot support his own movie?

[birdgirl]

...Ah...Then, wait, why the hell does Whedon dropped? Now it makes even less sense to me. Stupid WB.

I don't know if this is why they didn't like Whedon's ideas, but I didn't like them because: a) she never came to the U.S., b) Steve Trevor was not an army pilot, but a world-relief worker, c) he alters the origins of her armor and their powers. And probably more stuff too, if I had more to go on. I mean really. How many of you Superman fans would be more than a little ticked off if someone wrote a movie where Lois wasn't a reporter, and Superman didn't ever go to Metropolis?

Stop blaming WB! I'm more than willing to admit that they have had more than their fair share of F-ups, and that they just lucked into Nolan's Bat franchise, but this one was all on Whedon.

In case someone needs a link:
http://www.avclub.com/content/interview/joss_whedon

 

[The Major]

I don't know if this is why they didn't like Whedon's ideas, but I didn't like them because: a) she never came to the U.S., b) Steve Trevor was not an army pilot, but a world-relief worker, c) he alters the origins of her armor and their powers. And probably more stuff too, if I had more to go on. I mean really. How many of you Superman fans would be more than a little ticked off if someone wrote a movie where Lois wasn't a reporter, and Superman didn't ever go to Metropolis?

Stop blaming WB! I'm more than willing to admit that they have had more than their fair share of F-ups, and that they just lucked into Nolan's Bat franchise, but this one was all on Whedon.

In case someone needs a link:
http://www.avclub.com/content/interview/joss_whedon

Then why didn't they tell Whedon to be more faithful to the concept? Did they even know that much about the WW concept to begin with to do that?

They should have just gave him a copy of Gods and Mortals and told him to adapt that. Instead they just let him leave with no reason to come back.

AVC: Is your Wonder Woman film adaptation irrevocably dead, or is there any possibility of going back?
JW: I loved what I was doing. I mean, it was really hard. It took me a long time to break the story structurally to my satisfaction. When I did that, it was in an outline, and not in a draft, and they didn't like it. So I never got to write a draft where I got to work out exactly what I wanted to do. In terms of the meaning, the feeling, the look, the emotion, the character, the relationship with Steve Trevor, all of that stuff, I never wavered for a second. I knew exactly what I wanted to do. It was really just a question of housing it. I would go back in a heartbeat if I believed that anybody believed in what I was doing. The lack of enthusiasm was overwhelming. It was almost staggering, and that was kind of from the beginning. I just don't think my take on Wonder Woman was ever to their liking.
I wasn't getting them to feel what they wanted to feel. They couldn't describe what that was to me. We're talking about a huge investment. To ask somebody to jump on that, what is going to be a few hundred million dollars these days, if they just don't have that feeling… I had that feeling. I got chills when I think of some of this stuff, but apparently I was the only one who was chilly. Everybody was very gracious about it. It was a blind date, and everybody thought we'd get married, but let's just leave it at the door.

 

[Flash Facts]

So where does all this leave The Flash? Do they want him lite or dark? Do they want to acknowledge the legacy or keep it completely solo? Is Dobkin still on or not?

 

[BlackLantern]

WB wants it solo and they want it upbeat and easy to digest for the general audience

 

[Evil Twin]

Then why didn't they tell Whedon to be more faithful to the concept? Did they even know that much about the WW concept to begin with to do that?

They should have just gave him a copy of Gods and Mortals and told him to adapt that. Instead they just let him leave with no reason to come back.

Why assume that what Whedon had come up with was any good in the first place? Especially with a character that doesn't struggle with her identity and role in the world.

They gave him free reign, he went out and took a long time, complained publicly about how hard it was to get a handle on the character, and then turned in a draft that went out and reversed the whole point of her character, featured a new villain who we don't know was any good, and featured dumb stuff like Diana not knowing to get out of the way of a high speed projectile. Frankly, I think WB's response was just a polite way of saying, your script stinks and is unsalvageable, go away.

 

[The Major]

Why assume that what Whedon had come up with was any good in the first place? Especially with a character that doesn't struggle with her identity and role in the world.

They gave him free reign, he went out and took a long time, complained publicly about how hard it was to get a handle on the character, and then turned in a draft that went out and reversed the whole point of her character, featured a new villain who we don't know was any good, and featured dumb stuff like Diana not knowing to get out of the way of a high speed projectile. Frankly, I think WB's response was just a polite way of saying, your script stinks and is unsalvageable, go away.

If his script stinks he can write a better one, you know. It doesn't mean he can't do anything good with the character.

Just tell him why they don't like a certain thing, what they want to keep, ditch the rest and start again.

Firing seems like overkill.

 

[BlackLantern]

Whedon only wrote 2 successful tv shows that ran for 7 and 5 seasons respecitively, also a cult sci-fi show that featured some of the best writing on TV, a critically acclaimed run on X-men....but you're right...Whedon knows nothing about character writing

 

[Anubis]

Heh, Evil Twin does have a point.

For all we know, it coulda been crap. If half the stuff he pointed out is true I'm glad he didn't get the chance to make that movie. You want to do a good Wonder Woman movie? Read Wonder Woman the Hiketeia, and Greg Rucka's run. That will give you an idea of why Wonder Woman is awesome.

 

[terry78]

Whenever someone gets fired off of a movie usually it's personal. Creative differences can always be compromised.

 

[The Major]

Heh, Evil Twin does have a point.

For all we know, it coulda been crap.

So what if it was crap the first time?

He can write more then one draft.

If half the stuff he pointed out is true I'm glad he didn't get the chance to make that movie. You want to do a good Wonder Woman movie? Read Wonder Woman the Hiketeia, and Greg Rucka's run. That will give you an idea of why Wonder Woman is awesome.

Reading Perez and Rucka's WW should be mandatory reading for any screenwriter who writes WW or her mythos.

 

[Anubis]

Damn skippy.

 

[Evil Twin]

So what if it was crap the first time?

He can write more then one draft.



Reading Perez and Rucka's WW should be mandatory reading for any screenwriter who writes WW or her mythos.

Yeah, he can write more than one draft. So? He took an inordinately long time to come up with something and apparently a couple of guys writing a spec script came up with something better and showed that they got the character more. After two years, it's pretty obvious whether something is working or not. Does anyone think that a writer that really "got" and liked WW would need two years and turn in a draft that only vaguely resembles the character and her world? David Goyer didn't need two years to come up with a direction and script for Batman Begins.

And, yeah, Whedon has written some good shows/movies. And he also wrote Alien: Resurrection (which isn't a good movie even apart from a director that wasn't really suited for the franchise), Titan A.E., and the original Buffy movie wasn't that well received. He works well in his comfort zone, modern, witty, motor mouthed characters that are on a journey of self discovery, but that's not necessarily WW.

 

[Anubis]

He'd probably do a good Supergirl movie though.

 

[Kevin Smith]

You guys are kidding. the Flash, if done right, would be a great movie, as anyone aware of the comic book Flash (and not just the jl/jlu cartoon) could tell you.

they could do six films.

1. Barry, origin, mirror master is the main villain, enter the rogues (maybe Grodd?)
2. Barry & Iris marry, Reverse Flash kills Iris, enter Wally as kid Flash in subplot, Flash could discover earth two with jay Garrick
3. Barry saves the universe and stops the anti monitor but in doing so "dies", end of film Wally assumes the Flash mantle
4. set 5 years after the last film, this film focuses on Wally finally grown into the role of Flash, (only with the long established continuity of who barry is and so on could this work) enter linda park
5. Wally as Flash, enter Bart Allen/Impulse
6. the return of Barry Allen, all 4 speedsters live happily ever after, yada, yada, yada, the end

just an example.

 

[Anubis]

We all came to the conclusion that the *****e who started this thread doesn't know dik about......dik long ago. yeah.

 

[The Major]

Yeah, he can write more than one draft. So? He took an inordinately long time to come up with something

Why did it take a long time to come with something? Was he researching the property? Was he doing other things, as well? Did WB give him a definite deadline?

Just because it took him a while doesn't mean there wasn't a good reason for it. It's not like WW is that a high priority for WB.

and apparently a couple of guys writing a spec script came up with something better and showed that they got the character more.

They didn't get any farther with the WW movie then he did.

After two years, it's pretty obvious whether something is working or not.

And there could have been many, many logical reasons why. Not all because Whedon couldn't get something to work with from the franchise.

There's no reason to fire him for it.

And, yeah, Whedon has written some good shows/movie. And he also wrote Alien: Resurrection (which isn't a good movie even apart from a director that wasn't really suited for the franchise),

Agreed.

Titan A.E.,

No-one's perfect.

and the original Buffy movie wasn't that well received.

The original movie was completely different from how he envisioned the franchise. He's actually embarrassed about being involved with that. He fixed all that with the tv how.

Whedon co-wrote the first Toy Story, he wrote and directed the critically acclaimed Serenity and he created and maintained 3 critically acclaimed sci-fi tv shows.

He works well in his comfort zone, modern, witty, motor mouthed characters that are on a journey of self discovery, but that's not necessarily WW.

It could work for WW discovering the Patriach's World.

 

[The Major]

He'd probably do a good Supergirl movie though.

Agreed.

 

[Kevin Smith]

To those unfamiliar with the character - Wally is the most tempermental and angst ridden of all the Flashes in the comics. He is not the "goofy, lite heatred" guy he is on the JL/JLU show. That was Bart Allen aka Impulse's (who they were considering using to get a kid in there but instead used flash cuz he went better with the jla but gave him that personality) personality. Anyone familiar with the comics can tell you that Barry is the wisecracking, lite hearted, Flash, but he's also somewhat of a geek (he read comics). ....and has a reputation for being slow and easy going, also late for everything which is somewhat comedic. Wally and Bart never had any of that.

I was reading posts from a while back and it seemed as tho some people were confused...

 

[Kevin Smith]

We all came to the conclusion that the *****e who started this thread doesn't know dik about......dik long ago. yeah.

Sorry. lol. I see this thread and I start to get all pissed. My bad.

 

[BlackLantern]

You guys are kidding. the Flash, if done right, would be a great movie, as anyone aware of the comic book Flash (and not just the jl/jlu cartoon) could tell you.

they could do six films.

1. Barry, origin, mirror master is the main villain, enter the rogues (maybe Grodd?)
2. Barry & Iris marry, Reverse Flash kills Iris, enter Wally as kid Flash in subplot, Flash could discover earth two with jay Garrick
3. Barry saves the universe and stops the anti monitor but in doing so "dies", end of film Wally assumes the Flash mantle
4. set 5 years after the last film, this film focuses on Wally finally grown into the role of Flash, (only with the long established continuity of who barry is and so on could this work) enter linda park
5. Wally as Flash, enter Bart Allen/Impulse
6. the return of Barry Allen, all 4 speedsters live happily ever after, yada, yada, yada, the end

just an example.

WB probably wouldn't consider it a wise long term investment and the movie going audience, at large, would get bored .....

I'd say have Wally...do what they did in 'Incredible Hulk' and have an overview of The Flash as protector of Keystone, acknowledge Barry and let Wally take the film from there....a 5 minute opening sequence could do the job

 

[Anubis]

Maybe you didn't see him in his Morrison/Waid JLA days then. He and Rayner were funny as hell.

 

[The Major]

WB probably wouldn't consider it a wise long term investment and the movie going audience, at large, would get bored .....

That didn't seem to matter for Batman or Superman.

It's also why they have no third successful super-hero franchise.

 

[BlackLantern]

Because its Batman and Superman those are iconic characters....I'm a big Flash fan, but he isn't the icon that Superman and Batman are

 

[The Major]

Because its Batman and Superman those are iconic characters....I'm a big Flash fan, but he isn't the icon that Superman and Batman are

They were able to become iconic because WB actually did good stuff with them. Repeatedly. For generations.

The is no logical reason that couldn't work for their lesser franchises. It's not like they don't have the potential. WB just hasn't tapped into it properly.

****, WW's iconic and they can't be bothered doing much with her, either.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Also, they don't need to combine the Flashes when barry already has everything that they'd need for a movie:

origin
creating the costume/alias
cool job
relatability
great personaility
sense of humor
powers
smarts
girlfriend
streamlined continuity/story
villains
originality
supporting cast

He's got everything that's relevant to get newcomesr into the Flash. You don't need to be aware of any of the other speedsters in order to get Barry or any other history, not even thru flashbacks, you can just jump right on and enjoy the story for the first time. Wally and Bart don't have that eaither...

A golden age Jay Garrick film would be cool tho. Maybe a JSA film.