Who is engineering Ultron in Avengers 2?

[cherokeesam]

Well, y'know, it was that way in the comics.

I find it incredibly unlikely that HYDRA will have a part in Ultron's creation/corruption. Marvel Studios are all about keeping the core essence of their characters the same, but the extra stuff is fair game to change around.

By making Stark the creator, sure you're changing the fact that Hank Pym did it in the comics, but it's still a genius scientist creating an AI for _____ reasons, and then the AI going crazy. If HYDRA are behind it, then Ultron will have villainous intent from the start, and it turns into just another killer robot storyline that has been overdone to death for decades.

Some fans are probably still mad that Pym won't be the creator, but if you're trying think up a reason for Ultron's creation, at least write something that's akin to what Ultron represented in the comics and don't just depart from the source material even further.

There's a huge disparity between the "reason" Hank Pym invented Ultron in the comics versus your (and others here) suggestion that Tony Stark creates him. Hank Pym just built a simple helper robot to aid him in his studies of entomology, and that robot somehow grew sentient and mind-wiped its creator's memories of him/it and turned into something entirely different and entirely malevolent. What *you're* suggesting is that the MCU's Golden Boy will try to intentionally create some super-robot to either aid or replace (depending on whose theory you're following) the Avengers and be a major player in global defense. And that makes no sense from either Tony's mindset in the MCU, nor from a "best for business" standpoint for Marvel Studios.

Exactly. Stark fits perfectly into Pym's role in Ultron's story. The rest of these epileptic tree theories involve dumbness, like taking the pathos from Ultron, calling an algorithm an artificial intelligence (dictionary please?), or that SHIELD had Ultron in storage and just didn't bother to activate him when they needed him

You mean like how HYDRA didn't bother to activate the Zola algorithm they were sitting on for 70 years, or announce that they were still alive and kicking after 70 years?

That's the whole point of CATWS' HYDRA plot --- the world wasn't ready to give up their freedoms until now. So now is when HYDRA rolls out all their sinister plots, including Ultron.

Tony Stark already makes AI controlled fighting robots. It's what he does. Why are we trying to find other people to retcon into doing that, when you have an inventing Avenger (Pym was an inventing Avenger, for those non-comics fans), who will actually be in the heat of the battle against Ultron the same way Pym was. You guys aren't being logical at all, and you're not saying what emotions are driving overlooking the obvious, simple, hinted at solution.

Ultron does not #HailHYDRA

Arnim Zola makes killer robots and AI, too. And has been doing it for a ****load longer than Tony Stark has. You and other tried to deny this before CATWS came out and said I had no "proof," but after CATWS, the writing is on the wall. Arnim Zola is THE most brilliant evil mastermind in the MCU, bar none. Since the 1930s, he's been building armies of robots and exoskeletons; he created weapons and technology that are FAR more advanced than anything humanity has ever seen --- and he did it by dissecting a frickin' *alien artifact* of immense power; he kept HYDRA alive for 70 years, right under the nose of Nick Goddamn Fury himself; he invented an algorithm to find not only *existing* superheroes, but *potential* superheroes all over the planet, and generated a system to exterminate them all in one fell swoop; he transferred his own freakin' consciousness to a computer.

You're seriously telling me that you don't believe THAT ^ guy is MORE than capable of creating Ultron, a highly advanced killer robot bent on human genocide....? All righty then.

 

[JJ01]

Well, y'know, it was that way in the comics.

I find it incredibly unlikely that HYDRA will have a part in Ultron's creation/corruption. Marvel Studios are all about keeping the core essence of their characters the same, but the extra stuff is fair game to change around.

By making Stark the creator, sure you're changing the fact that Hank Pym did it in the comics, but it's still a genius scientist creating an AI for _____ reasons, and then the AI going crazy. If HYDRA are behind it, then Ultron will have villainous intent from the start, and it turns into just another killer robot storyline that has been overdone to death for decades.

Some fans are probably still mad that Pym won't be the creator, but if you're trying think up a reason for Ultron's creation, at least write something that's akin to what Ultron represented in the comics and don't just depart from the source material even further.

No offense at all, but, to say Hank Pym not creating Ultron is perfectly fine and then saying it has to come from the Avengers because otherwise is not Ultron is called hypocrisy. Ultron's nature is that of an evil robot who hates humans. That's it. Just because he's an evil robot, it does not mean the way he's displaying is generic. Ultron does not spend his time yelling FATHEEEEEEEEEER FATHEEEEER FATHEEEEER in the comics while killing people.



Sometimes the father-son dynamic with Pym is not even in his stories. The MCU is its own thing. They already changed a lot, going as far as turning the Mandarin into a joke. Even if Ultron comes from HYDRA, he would be still be a villain, he would still hate humans, he would still be a threat. It's not like he's suddenly going to be Trevor's distant cousin Manuel. At this point, I don't really think Stark creates Ultron just because. They already got Jarvis, why would they have Stark creating a new AI, if he can simply upgrade Jarvis? It's not like his armors, where he keeps creating them. The way I see it, Jarvis is corrupted by the twins/Strucker with a virus. The virus ''evolves'', to the point he no longer needs Jarvis to keep evolving, and uses his remains to create the Vision.

And of course his fans are disappointed. Anyone would be disappointed if Marvel treated their favorite character that way.

 

[MarvelKnight]

As soon as the algorithm for identifying and taking out potential targets was brought up in TWS, I pretty much jumped to the conclusion that this is the basis for Ultron.

Who builds his robot shell, I don't know, maybe Ultron takes bits and pieces from existing technology (gets his hands on vibranium and/or adamantium) a little stark tech, some Winter Soldier Tech, and builds his own armor in some hi tech machine shop. But I definitely think Ultron is created by Zola. In the MCU version

 

[DrCosmic]

There's a huge disparity between the "reason" Hank Pym invented Ultron in the comics versus your (and others here) suggestion that Tony Stark creates him. Hank Pym just built a simple helper robot to aid him in his studies of entomology, and that robot somehow grew sentient and mind-wiped its creator's memories of him/it and turned into something entirely different and entirely malevolent. What *you're* suggesting is that the MCU's Golden Boy will try to intentionally create some super-robot to either aid or replace (depending on whose theory you're following) the Avengers and be a major player in global defense. And that makes no sense from either Tony's mindset in the MCU, nor from a "best for business" standpoint for Marvel Studios.

This is actually a good point. So Tony makes Ultron as a simple helper in his work, not as a superhero replacement.

But if Tony's mindset and Marvel business does not involve Tony having AI save the world, please go and let the makers of IM3 know that.

You mean like how HYDRA didn't bother to activate the Zola algorithm they were sitting on for 70 years, or announce that they were still alive and kicking after 70 years?

That's the whole point of CATWS' HYDRA plot --- the world wasn't ready to give up their freedoms until now. So now is when HYDRA rolls out all their sinister plots, including Ultron.

Okay, so it's only dumb in 4 ways instead of 5. -shrug-

Arnim Zola makes killer robots and AI, too. And has been doing it for a ****load longer than Tony Stark has. You and other tried to deny this before CATWS came out and said I had no "proof," but after CATWS, the writing is on the wall. Arnim Zola is THE most brilliant evil mastermind in the MCU, bar none. Since the 1930s, he's been building armies of robots and exoskeletons; he created weapons and technology that are FAR more advanced than anything humanity has ever seen --- and he did it by dissecting a frickin' *alien artifact* of immense power; he kept HYDRA alive for 70 years, right under the nose of Nick Goddamn Fury himself; he invented an algorithm to find not only *existing* superheroes, but *potential* superheroes all over the planet, and generated a system to exterminate them all in one fell swoop; he transferred his own freakin' consciousness to a computer.

You're seriously telling me that you don't believe THAT ^ guy is MORE than capable of creating Ultron, a highly advanced killer robot bent on human genocide....? All righty then.

Well, seeing as he can't make AI, yeah. The best he could do is transfer his actual intelligence into a huge room. Zola was a great scientist, but in the long run, HYDRA just put him in a basement and shut him down, and killed him, because he wasn't that important. He's just a glorified easter egg:

Keep in mind, Zola was something the writers had to pitch hard, not something the MCU needed from Feige and Whedon's point of view:

"That particular decision [SHIELD going down] came from Kevin [Feige], but there are a lot of mythology decisions in there that we pitched. The S.S.R. being under Camp Lehigh, Zola being in a computer down there — that's all stuff that we pitched hard and eventually they said, "Let's run with that."

No offense at all, but, to say Hank Pym not creating Ultron is perfectly fine and then saying it has to come from the Avengers because otherwise is not Ultron is called hypocrisy. Ultron's nature is that of an evil robot who hates humans. That's it. Just because he's an evil robot, it does not mean the way he's displaying is generic. Ultron does not spend his time yelling FATHEEEEEEEEEER FATHEEEEER FATHEEEEER in the comics while killing people.

Sometimes the father-son dynamic with Pym is not even in his stories. The MCU is its own thing. They already changed a lot, going as far as turning the Mandarin into a joke. Even if Ultron comes from HYDRA, he would be still be a villain, he would still hate humans, he would still be a threat. It's not like he's suddenly going to be Trevor's distant cousin Manuel. At this point, I don't really think Stark creates Ultron just because. They already got Jarvis, why would they have Stark creating a new AI, if he can simply upgrade Jarvis? It's not like his armors, where he keeps creating them. The way I see it, Jarvis is corrupted by the twins/Strucker with a virus. The virus ''evolves'', to the point he no longer needs Jarvis to keep evolving, and uses his remains to create the Vision.

And of course his fans are disappointed. Anyone would be disappointed if Marvel treated their favorite character that way.

What does treating Pym wrong have to do with changing Ultron more than he already is? If Peter is raised by Uncle Jerry, that's okay, that doesn't change Peter Parker at all. If Peter is instead raised by The Maggia, then that's not okay. That's not hypocricy, that's understanding the difference between a surface change and a change of the entire story of the character.

Regardless, you don't seem to be familiar with Ultron's nature. He's not just an 'evil robot who hates humans.'

If HYDRA makes Ultron, on any level, then he's not a robot whose out of control, doing things outside of what he was intended, he's just a tool of another bad guy. He would be 'evil' I guess, but he wouldn't be a tragedy, he wouldn't be intimate with the Avengers. What makes Ultron one of the greatest Avengers foes is that he comes from the Avengers, not that he's evil, or how evil he is, but that he wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Avengers. He's not an enemy plot. He's, in more ways than one, one of them. They are responsible for him. They should have seen the signs. And Ultron knows this, so when he deals with the Avengers, especially his inventor, it's a very personal very emotional event, not just following HYDRA's orders. The personal with the Avengers subtext is always in the stories, and the following bad guy orders subtext is never in the Ultron stories.

As for your only logical reason why it couldn't be Stark: artificial intelligences can't be upgraded.

And honestly, even if you don't get this, Whedon does, they're going to keep the feel of Ultron, he's going to be emotional, he's going to have personal beef with the Avengers, he's going to come more from the Avengers than anything else, he's connected to Iron Man more than anyone else, so -shrug-

 

[JJ01]

What does treating Pym wrong have to do with changing Ultron more than he already is? If Peter is raised by Uncle Jerry, that's okay, that doesn't change Peter Parker at all. If Peter is instead raised by The Maggia, then that's not okay. That's not hypocricy, that's understanding the difference between a surface change and a change of the entire story of the character.

Regardless, you don't seem to be familiar with Ultron's nature. He's not just an 'evil robot who hates humans.'

If HYDRA makes Ultron, on any level, then he's not a robot whose out of control, doing things outside of what he was intended, he's just a tool of another bad guy. He would be 'evil' I guess, but he wouldn't be a tragedy, he wouldn't be intimate with the Avengers. What makes Ultron one of the greatest Avengers foes is that he comes from the Avengers, not that he's evil, or how evil he is, but that he wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Avengers. He's not an enemy plot. He's, in more ways than one, one of them. They are responsible for him. They should have seen the signs. And Ultron knows this, so when he deals with the Avengers, especially his inventor, it's a very personal very emotional event, not just following HYDRA's orders. The personal with the Avengers subtext is always in the stories, and the following bad guy orders subtext is never in the Ultron stories.

As for your only logical reason why it couldn't be Stark: artificial intelligences can't be upgraded.

And honestly, even if you don't get this, Whedon does, they're going to keep the feel of Ultron, he's going to be emotional, he's going to have personal beef with the Avengers, he's going to come more from the Avengers than anything else, he's connected to Iron Man more than anyone else, so -shrug-

First off, Ultron is NOT THE AVENGERS MISTAKE. Why do people keep saying that? He was not created by the team, or by Stark, or by Cap. It was all Pym. He never went and say ''hey guys I'm working on this Ultron AI, care to help me so we can finish it?''.

You say artificial intelligences can't be upgraded. Yet this is science fiction, yet Stark ''created'' a new element in IM2. I don't see why he could not upgrade Jarvis.

Ultron IS an evil robot. Even his first appareance was that. Just a killer robot who wanted the destroy the Avengers. It's all on the way he displays it. The oedipus complex was only shown in a brief flashback, and it came way later on.

My point still stands: to say you're perfectly fine with a change then reject the idea of other change, is hipocrisy and a certain bias towards certain character.

 

[DrCosmic]

First off, Ultron is NOT THE AVENGERS MISTAKE. Why do people keep saying that? He was not created by the team, or by Stark, or by Cap. It was all Pym. He never went and say ''hey guys I'm working on this Ultron AI, care to help me so we can finish it?''.

You say artificial intelligences can't be upgraded. Yet this is science fiction, yet Stark ''created'' a new element in IM2. I don't see why he could not upgrade Jarvis.

Ultron IS an evil robot. Even his first appareance was that. Just a killer robot who wanted the destroy the Avengers. It's all on the way he displays it. The oedipus complex was only shown in a brief flashback, and it came way later on.

My point still stands: to say you're perfectly fine with a change then reject the idea of other change, is hipocrisy and a certain bias towards certain character.

Not all changes are the same. I change my clothes every day, I even change my hairstyle sometimes, but I keep my belief system the same. Am I based towards myself? I think it's cool to change Tony Stark from having a secret identity, but to make him no longer a character with powered armor would change something that's deep about the character, and not just something superficial. If you weren't against that change, then you too are a hypocrite. And also not familiar with real life science, where people actually do create elements at the end of the periodic table, or with the idea that science fiction is based on actual science, and doesn't just throw it out the window.

People keep saying that Ultron comes from the Avengers because they've read the comics and have enjoyed the subtext and tension that comes from Ultron's origin. So, while Ultron is not directly caused by all the Avengers, they feel some degree of responsibility for not seeing the signs with Pym. They are what Pym was comparing himself to to make himself feel bad in the first place. Ultron comes from the Avengers, one way or another, and not outside the Avengers, and that changes the nature of the story. They are intimately connected with his origin and he knows it. To focus on this Oedipus complex or his first appearance, or did Captain America actually physically put Ultron together is shortsighted. Ultron's connection to the Avengers is deeper, more comprehensive and more long-standing than that. Again, glad this is a moot point and Whedon says the same thing.

Do a Find/Replace on Pym with Stark and go from there. That's what the MCU is doing and no one has offered a logical reason for them not to do that. Neither have they offered any logical reason to make it HYDRA or whatever other silliness is proposed.

 

[JJ01]

Not all changes are the same. I change my clothes every day, I even change my hairstyle sometimes, but I keep my belief system the same. Am I based towards myself? I think it's cool to change Tony Stark from having a secret identity, but to make him no longer a character with powered armor would change something that's deep about the character, and not just something superficial. If you weren't against that change, then you too are a hypocrite. And also not familiar with real life science, where people actually do create elements at the end of the periodic table, or with the idea that science fiction is based on actual science, and doesn't just throw it out the window.

People keep saying that Ultron comes from the Avengers because they've read the comics and have enjoyed the subtext and tension that comes from Ultron's origin. So, while Ultron is not directly caused by all the Avengers, they feel some degree of responsibility for not seeing the signs with Pym. They are what Pym was comparing himself to to make himself feel bad in the first place. Ultron comes from the Avengers, one way or another, and not outside the Avengers, and that changes the nature of the story. They are intimately connected with his origin and he knows it. To focus on this Oedipus complex or his first appearance, or did Captain America actually physically put Ultron together is shortsighted. Ultron's connection to the Avengers is deeper, more comprehensive and more long-standing than that. Again, glad this is a moot point and Whedon says the same thing.

Do a Find/Replace on Pym with Stark and go from there. That's what the MCU is doing and no one has offered a logical reason for them not to do that. Neither have they offered any logical reason to make it HYDRA or whatever other silliness is proposed.

It's pretty obvious you like RDJ and you want his particular Stark to go through everything Pym went. There's nothing wrong on liking him, after all I like him too. And yes, everyone at some point in some way is hypocrite. But you're already ignoring a character who has a fanbase and taking away his age, his place as founder Avenger, his relationship with Jan (since she's apparently his daughter) and Ultron. They obviously don't care at all. If this was their favorite character, things would not be the same and they would complain. You can't really say those people read the comics. Sometimes people just watch the movies and parrot things the read and hear. Like the whole ''wife-beating avenger'' thing. I don't think Whedon is lazy enough to write Ultron's origins exactly like they were in the comics, just replacing Pym for Stark. They already got Jarvis, an AI. If there was a reason for the Avengers to assemble (Coulson's death), then there will be a reason for Jarvis to go rogue and evolve into Ultron (HYDRA's virus/code that evolves). Just like everybody says, not everything has to be exactly like in 616. The Avengers will fight Ultron, and Ultron will be a villain who hates humans. That's the most important thing.

Also, the twins/Strucker/HYDRA corrupting Jarvis and turning him into a global threat is way more personal for Stark, than his newest AI going rogue.

 

[DrCosmic]

The only thing obvious is that you gave up the logical debate you couldn't win and started trying to make DrCosmic the subject, instead of Ultron. Wright tied up Pym so he couldn't be a founder or make Ultron. It happened. It wasn't anyone's 'fault' or done to hurt anyone.

I agree things won't be exactly the same, the MCU isn't exactly the same as 616. They will be very similar, like the rest of the MCU. You are familiar with the idea of similar, right? It's not exactly the same (Pym), but it's not completely different (HYDRA)?

Why would Tony take HYDRA making his program evil more personally than the program going rogue because of his own mistakes? Isn't bad stuff that comes from you and your friends more personal than evil people trying to kill you because they're evil?

 

[JJ01]

The only thing obvious is that you gave up the logical debate you couldn't win and started trying to make DrCosmic the subject, instead of Ultron. Wright tied up Pym so he couldn't be a founder or make Ultron. It happened. It wasn't anyone's 'fault' or done to hurt anyone.

I agree things won't be exactly the same, the MCU isn't exactly the same as 616. They will be very similar, like the rest of the MCU. You are familiar with the idea of similar, right? It's not exactly the same (Pym), but it's not completely different (HYDRA)?

Why would Tony take HYDRA making his program evil more personally than the program going rogue because of his own mistakes? Isn't bad stuff that comes from you and your friends more personal than evil people trying to kill you because they're evil?

I only said that's what you wanted. You even mentioned it in some other thread. I'm not even attacking you. That post is not about you. The AI is still created by Tony. Why would Tony create yet another AI when he can simply upgrade Jarvis?

''J.A.R.V.I.S. is Tony Stark's home computing system, taking care of everything to do with the house, from heating and cooling systems to engine analysis of Stark's hot rod in the garage. J.A.R.V.I.S. was also adapted to be downloaded into the Iron Man Mark 2 and 3 armors, to help Tony navigate the systems. J.A.R.V.I.S. later informs Stark that his security protocols were overridden by Nick Fury, who sneaks into Stark's house to discuss the Avengers Initiative with him.''

I'm not even involving Pym in this. The virus/code could come from Howard Stark, Zola, Pym or pretty much anyone.

I'm not implying Marvel does not care about Pym. All I'm saying is those people who are fine with removing Pym but reject the idea of changing Ultron's origin don't care.

 

[DrCosmic]

Hmm... that's not what I said, but I see what we're saying is not so different.

There's a number of reasons why Ultron may be different from JARVIS. They fall into two major
1) There is some task in/before AoU that Tony needs to accomplish that JARVIS cannot accomplish via some design issue.
2) Ultron *is* an upgrade of JARVIS, plain and simple

So, why does there need to be a virus/code at all? Why can't he just rebel because he's sentient, because he doesn't like being a robot slave? That's the original story and it's much more emotional and meaningful than 'he was programmed to be evil by HYDRA.'

 

[JJ01]

Hmm... that's not what I said, but I see what we're saying is not so different.

There's a number of reasons why Ultron may be different from JARVIS. They fall into two major
1) There is some task in/before AoU that Tony needs to accomplish that JARVIS cannot accomplish via some design issue.
2) Ultron *is* an upgrade of JARVIS, plain and simple

So, why does there need to be a virus/code at all? Why can't he just rebel because he's sentient, because he doesn't like being a robot slave? That's the original story and it's much more emotional and meaningful than 'he was programmed to be evil by HYDRA.'

Well, in the comics, the Avengers decided to become a superhero team after Pym and Janet suggested it to Hulk, Thor and Iron Man. Then they came up with the Avengers name because it was dramatic and colorful. They obviously didn't go that way in the movie, with Fury being the one behind the initiative and Coulson being the reason they actually assemble. I don't think Jarvis or Ultron would suddenly go rogue just because that's how it is in the comics. It's more meaningful to see Stark's creation being corrupted and turned into something he was not designed for. Like having your kid treated in a bad way by some other people, and then becoming a global threat. That is completely personal, from both HYDRA and Ultron. Tony still builds the AI, Tony is probably giving him his first body. Is it too much if the reason Jarvis/Ultron goes rogue is because of someone else?

 

[DrCosmic]

I didn't say 'because that's how it is in the comics' I said, as you quoted: "because he doesn't like being a robot slave." You still have Stark's creation being corrupted and turning into something it's not designed for, but you don't have any one else you can't point fingers at now. It's much worse, and much more meaningful when you do the best you can, and your kid becomes Hitler anyway. That's a blow, that's heavy, that's cool. Some bad guy turning your kid evil just means they're a really bad guy, and they're the real problem, not your kid. And HYDRA isn't a person, how can anything be personal to them?

Again, glad Whedon gets this, and Ultron will be mad because others have free will and he doesn't. Being a robot slave is enough to turn anyone evil, I'd think.

 

[JJ01]

You said that's how it was in the original story, that being the comic book. It becomes personal from the moment Ultron (as a code or virus) corrupts Jarvis and uses him to evolve. And it becomes even more personal, when he uses Jarvis against the Avengers and as his personal slave, the Vision. Now that's a low blow. At the end of the day, these are just theories and we can't really say ''that's not logical enough'' or ''that's completely logical''. We don't even have a proper description of the movie, we haven't seen any trailers and they only give ambiguous answers. I don't have to find the ''Tony decides to create a new AI and at some point, that AI becomes Ultron'' theory likely. However, I can give it a chance and consider it as a possibility. I guess I'm open to anything, to expect the unexpected, after seeing the Mandarin twist.

 

[DrCosmic]

I did suggest it was similar, but it's not similar just for the sake of being like the comics, it similar because A) it's a good story B) It's what Whedon said he was going with. And while you have fine theories on how it 'becomes' personal, the way the original comics have it, and the way Whedon indicates he's going with it, it's personal from start to finish, it doesn't just become personal after someone other than the people Tony cares about get involved.

But you're right, you can ignore what Whedon and Feige have said and not call logic logic. If you feel that Whedon can co are misleading you the way some felt they were misled going into IM3, that's your prerogative.

 

[JJ01]

You can't seriously expect Whedon and Feige to spill important spoilers in an interview. Since people are taking things too literal, Whedon said Ultron comes from us, then he said its origins are from the Avengers, then Feige implied it's someone who is quite good with AI. In TWS it's revealed Zola (who is part of HYDRA) is good with AI too, and guess who is also in AoU? HYDRA. If we can't ignore their comments, then I guess all 6 Avengers, Zola/HYDRA and Marvel Studios create Ultron. They obviously can't say ''no comments' when they're in charge of the movie.
Whedon even said this movie would be ''smaller''. Do you honestly see AoU as smaller compared to the Avengers? With the Avengers traveling around the world, saving the day, with the inevitable battle against Ultron's spawn/off-spring/army, with new additions such as Pietro, Wanda, the Vision, Ultron, Strucker, HYDRA's good work, Clint's big part, Nat's big part, Hulk's big part, Stark and Cap co-leading a superhero team and Thor? Before anyone knew this movie would be about Ultron, Whedon said we could expect ''death, death and death!'' from the sequel. Who showed up in the credits scene in the Avengers? Thanos. Who's related to ''death''? Thanos. Then he was obviously talking about Thanos being the villain of Avengers 2. Is he the villain in Avengers 2? No.

 

[THTRobTaylor]

We don't know Pym isn't in there yet... What I can see it coming down to is one of two things.

1) Zola/The Algorithm goes self aware having uploaded itself to the net prior the second Cap activated Zola.

2) It comes from Tony's "hack" in the first Avenger's movie... one of the files he finds is a video from Pym stating he is burying the programme because it is unsafe, do not try to find it or reactivate it... Stark of course won't be able to resist...

 

[DrCosmic]

We don't know Pym isn't in there yet... What I can see it coming down to is one of two things.

1) Zola/The Algorithm goes self aware having uploaded itself to the net prior the second Cap activated Zola.

2) It comes from Tony's "hack" in the first Avenger's movie... one of the files he finds is a video from Pym stating he is burying the programme because it is unsafe, do not try to find it or reactivate it... Stark of course won't be able to resist...

Sorry buddy, they've repeatedly said Pym isn't in the mix and definitely is not in the movie. The first time we'll see/hear of Pym is in the movie Ant-Man, as it should be.

You can't seriously expect Whedon and Feige to spill important spoilers in an interview. Since people are taking things too literal, Whedon said Ultron comes from us, then he said its origins are from the Avengers, then Feige implied it's someone who is quite good with AI. In TWS it's revealed Zola (who is part of HYDRA) is good with AI too, and guess who is also in AoU? HYDRA. If we can't ignore their comments, then I guess all 6 Avengers, Zola/HYDRA and Marvel Studios create Ultron. They obviously can't say ''no comments' when they're in charge of the movie.
Whedon even said this movie would be ''smaller''. Do you honestly see AoU as smaller compared to the Avengers? With the Avengers traveling around the world, saving the day, with the inevitable battle against Ultron's spawn/off-spring/army, with new additions such as Pietro, Wanda, the Vision, Ultron, Strucker, HYDRA's good work, Clint's big part, Nat's big part, Hulk's big part, Stark and Cap co-leading a superhero team and Thor? Before anyone knew this movie would be about Ultron, Whedon said we could expect ''death, death and death!'' from the sequel. Who showed up in the credits scene in the Avengers? Thanos. Who's related to ''death''? Thanos. Then he was obviously talking about Thanos being the villain of Avengers 2. Is he the villain in Avengers 2? No.

I'm not taking anything literally, I'm just not assuming they're lying. They said Ultron's origin comes more from the Avengers we know, you say it comes more from HYDRA. I trust Whedon about the film he's writing. It's that simple.

Q: How will can a sequel be bigger than Avengers?
A: “By not trying to. By being smaller. More personal, more painful. By being the next thing that should happen to these characters, and not just a rehash of what seemed to work the first time. By having a theme that is completely fresh and organic to itself.”

So it's actually the opposite of what people quoted, what you're saying he said. He's actually saying it will be bigger by being smaller, and he clarifies exactly what he means: more personal, more painful. That's the way in which it will be smaller, and consequently, bigger. I can understand being confused by the concept of going smaller to go bigger, but its clearly what he said.

I just read man, I don't know what you do, but I just look at the words go by what the words say. If Whedon says there'll be death, there'll be death. If Whedon says Thanos will have an villainous presence in A2 (he does), then I take that. I don't add to that if it contradicts. If Zola never makes an AI, and only manages to get his own non-artificial intelligence onto tape, I don't say he's good with AI, I say "He figured out how to convert his normal intelligence into data." I don't say "He's quite good with AI." Because there's no basis for that. I also wouldn't attribute Zola, who the writers had to pitch hard to put into the script, to a two year old quote from Feige.

 

[JJ01]

I'm not taking anything literally, I'm just not assuming they're lying. They said Ultron's origin comes more from the Avengers we know, you say it comes more from HYDRA. I trust Whedon about the film he's writing. It's that simple.

So it's actually the opposite of what people quoted. He's actually saying it will be bigger by being smaller, and he clarifies exactly what he means: more personal, more painful. That's the way in which it will be smaller, and consequently, bigger. I can understand being confused by the concept of going smaller to go bigger, but its clearly what he said.

I just read man, I don't know what you do, but I just look at the words go by what the words say. If Whedon says there'll be death, there'll be death. If Whedon says Thanos will have an unseen villainous presence in A2 (he does), then I take that. If Zola never makes an AI, and only manages to get his own non-artificial intelligence onto tape, I don't say he's good with AI, I say "He figured out how to convert his normal intelligence into data." I don't say "He's quite good with AI." Because there's no basis for that.

I never said you took things literally. I said people (in other threads/sites) take things literally. In this case you're just assuming it's going to be bigger ''by being smaller, and therefore personal and painful''. He never mentioned the word bigger. When Whedon said there would be death, everyone started assuming Thanos would be the villain. And then, they announced it was Ultron, to which everyone replied ''but I thought Thanos was the villain'' just because of the credits scene and Whedon's comment. All I'm saying, is that I don't discard the idea of Ultron coming from both Tony and HYDRA. I can't believe you're fine with Stark replacing the dynamic Ultron has with Pym, but the idea of Ultron coming from both Tony and HYDRA is impossible, illogical and won't happen, even though Ultron would still be a villain who hates humans. Come on now.

 

[Dr. Evil]

So why is this not in the Age of Ultron forum?

 

[DrCosmic]

I never said you took things literally. I said people (in other threads/sites) take things literally. In this case you're just assuming it's going to be bigger ''by being smaller, and therefore personal and painful''. He never mentioned the word bigger. When Whedon said there would be death, everyone started assuming Thanos would be the villain. And then, they announced it was Ultron, to which everyone replied ''but I thought Thanos was the villain'' just because of the credits scene and Whedon's comment. All I'm saying, is that I don't discard the idea of Ultron coming from both Tony and HYDRA. I can't believe you're fine with Stark replacing the dynamic Ultron has with Pym, but the idea of Ultron coming from both Tony and HYDRA is impossible, illogical and won't happen, even though Ultron would still be a villain who hates humans. Come on now.

I'm not assuming, someone asked Whedon how he'd go bigger. He said by going smaller. It's what he said. No assumptions here, buddy. I'm aware that other people make assumptions, I was one of those who was adamantly against the idea of Thanos being the villain for Avengers 2 because it was baseless, because death = Ultron is simply not logic, and because the feel of Thanos is as an overarching villain for a storyline/trilogy. I couldn't prove that until recently, though.

The reason I dismiss adding HYDRA to the mix is not because it's impossible, but because:

A) There is absolutely no reason to add HYDRA into the mix. It doesn't help Ultron's story. No one's even said why they would want to add it in. I'm like "what is wrong with these people, don't they like Ultron's story?"
B) There is a reason not to: it changes the feeling of Ultron instead of just his creator, it changes the core of Ultron's story for the worse. Your kid just goes bad. No one made him bad, except you. That's Ultron. That's deep.
C) Whedon has said he's only tweaking the origin and keeping the feel of the character, Ultron. Taking Ultron, who is a Mastermind, and making him the Enforcer for someone else's evil plan doesn't qualify as keeping the feel of the character at all.

So is it possible that HYDRA will help create Ultron? Pym? Peggy Carter? Rhodey? Amadeus Cho? Sure it's... possible, I guess? Will it happen? Only if Whedon lies AND does things that don't make sense AND what's to change Ultron's nature and core story 'just cuz' like some around here do.

 

[JJ01]

I'm not assuming, someone asked Whedon how he'd go bigger. He said by going smaller. It's what he said. No assumptions here, buddy. I'm aware that other people make assumptions, I was one of those who was adamantly against the idea of Thanos being the villain for Avengers 2 because it was baseless, because death = Ultron is simply not logic, and because

The reason I dismiss adding HYDRA to the mix is not because it's impossible, but because:

A) There is absolutely no reason to add HYDRA into the mix.
B) There is a reason not to: it changes the feeling of Ultron instead of just his creator, it changes the core of Ultron's story. Your kid just goes bad. No one made him bad, except you. That's Ultron. That's awesome.
C) Whedon has said he's only tweaking the origin and keeping the feel of the character, Ultron.

So is it possible that HYDRA will help create Ultron? Pym? Peggy Carter? Rhodey? Amadeus Cho? Sure it's... possible, I guess? Will it happen? Only if Whedon lies.

Just like they had a reason for the avengers name, for them to assemble, for magic, for pretty much everything. I don't think Strucker/HYDRA and the twins will be there just to introduce them nor to rob banks or anything like that. What are they doing exactly all over the world? They already changed the core of Pym and Ultron's dynamic. Why don't I see you complaining? I'm not complaining either. It's just disappointing. Yet you completely refuse that possibility, because ''it changes the core of Ultron's story. You're not your kid's owner. If he decides to do something, it's his choice. You didn't take his hands and do it for him.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm with Cosmic on this. That said, I do think Zola's algorithm will have SOMETHING to do with Ultron. They're both computer programs/AI's/whatever, have similar goals (wipe out powerful individuals or a heck of a lot of people) etc, Feige and everyone else at Marvel have said that The Winter Soldier heavily relates to Age of Ultron and the two are so close to each other. It would be kinda strange if this huge, Ultron-esque idea had nothing to do with the real Ultron in the end.

I think there'll be something there, but I don't think they'll rehash the plot from TWS in AoU. I think it'd be cool if Zola's algorithm were something that Ultron found and used as his justification to do something different, like... eliminate just the Avengers, that could be a cool way to include it, without just rehashing TWS.

Just like they had a reason for the avengers name, for them to assemble, for magic, for pretty much everything. I don't think Strucker/HYDRA and the twins will be there just to introduce them nor to rob banks or anything like that. What are they doing exactly all over the world? They already changed the core of Pym and Ultron's dynamic. Why don't I see you complaining? I'm not complaining either. It's just disappointing. Yet you completely refuse that possibility, because ''it changes the core of Ultron's story.

Exactly. Reasons, not 'just cuz.'

Remember, how I did A, B and C? That means it's not just because it changes the story, but because it doesn't add anything to the story and also because Whedon said he wasn't going to change the feel of the character. All three reasons.

So if they keep the feel of Ultron, it will be the bad guys working for Ultron, not the other way around. HYDRA makes a great frontman for Ultron. Rehashing the weapon from Avengers 1, a couple of bad guys that will soon turn good. Strucker may not survive until the middle of movie, much less be the guy responsible for Ultron being evil.

You're not your kid's owner. If he decides to do something, it's his choice. You didn't take his hands and do it for him.

Exactly. Making it so that someone came and made your kid do bad means it's not your kids choice. It's got to be Ultron's choice to be evil, no one else's, or else he becomes a glorified lackey.

 

[JJ01]

For a better explanation:

Let's see Jarvis as Tony's kid. When he was building Jarvis, it's the same as raising your kid, right? Jarvis is then introduced to a guy who is evil, and offers him a gun to kill people. He accepts and does it. It's his choice. It's the same as Jarvis being corrupted because Tony couldn't fix all of his backdoors or weakness, whatever you want to call it. It's still Tony's fault, for not raising/building him better.

 

[JJ01]

Remember, how I did A, B and C? That means it's not just because it changes the story, but because it doesn't add anything to the story and also because Whedon said he wasn't going to change the feel of the character. All three reasons.

So if they keep the feel of Ultron, it will be the bad guys working for Ultron, not the other way around. HYDRA makes a great frontman for Ultron. Rehashing the weapon from Avengers 1, a couple of bad guys that will soon turn good. Strucker may not survive until the middle of movie, much less be the guy responsible for Ultron being evil.

Exactly. Making it so that someone came and made your kid do bad means it's not your kids choice. It's got to be Ultron's choice to be evil, no one else's, or else he becomes a glorified lackey.

The only reason I'm suggesting the whole virus/code thing, is because they apparently want to keep their movies and universe grounded and realistic. What's more realistic? That your AI goes rogue because of a virus/code, or because it suddenly changed his mind and decided humans are weak and they should not be allowed to exist?

Even this costume had a reason to exist.

 

[DrCosmic]

If an adult comes to my child and offers them a gun to kill people and the child does it, the adult is going to jail, the adult is the bad guy, and the child is one of the victims.

This is different from a child growing up, becoming an adult themselves and saying, y'know what Doctor Dad and Lawyer Mom? I'm gonna be a serial killer. That's purely his choice, when you go against what you were taught. That's what rogue AI's do, that's what the best villains do, and Ultron is both.