Next Avengers Cartoon

[Dread]

Dread, I agree 110%.

That's cool.

 

[Dr. Fate]

That's cool.

As is your avatar.

 

[Dread]

As is your avatar.

Thanks (and likewise). Can't go wrong with Casey Jones. Goongala!

 

[Dr. Fate]

Thanks (and likewise). Can't go wrong with Casey Jones. Goongala!

Casey Jones is the Man.

I keep meaning to go back to my Dr. Fate avatar, but I never get around to it.

I think the only part of the Next Avengers DVD I actually liked were the sneak previews of Wolverine VS. Hulk and Hulk VS. Thor, even though they look to be thin on plot and I'm not sure I like these new Thor character designs I'm seeing in both NA and Hulk_VS_Thor - or the Wolverine design for that matter - although they are based on the classic Thor design we all know and love, something just looks... off about it (and I'm finding that I miss hearing David Boat's voice coming out of Thor's mouth). Certainly not as solid as the Thor design from Ultimate Avengers (which actually reminded me of Tyler Mane), or the Thor design seen back in the mid-90s when he guest starred on Fantastic Four and Incredible Hulk (voiced by John Rhys-Davies). Still, a nice smackdown between Thor & Hulk is certainly preferable to Thor-as-irresponsible-father-deadbeat-friend.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think you guys are taking this show too personally because it's not a 616 style Avengers movie, which it never meant to be in the first place. It's a gateway animated movie for the kids.

The Ultimate Avengers are more like the 616 versions than the Ultimate version. They took just about all the Miller/Hitch elements out of those except for the character designs.

 

[BizarroAids]

I think you guys are taking this show too personally because it's not a 616 style Avengers movie, which it never meant to be in the first place. It's a gateway animated movie for the kids.

The Ultimate Avengers are more like the 616 versions than the Ultimate version. They took just about all the Miller/Hitch elements out of those except for the character designs.

Just from the stuff I've seen in the past about what movies you enjoyed, or didn't. I have to say, I was surprised when i saw that you enjoyed this one. Then I watched it for myself, and I totally understood why.

I'll admit, I wouldn't mind seeing a true 616 Avengers movie, with classic Nick Fury. But I see where you are coming from about the moies being a basic 616 film. There are just a few small things I'd want to see added, that's why I want a 616 film. But not many things that it changes how I feel about any of the Avengers animated projects.t:

 

[TheVileOne]

Honestly I disagree. Here's why BizarroAids. For the animated movies they are doing Ultimate Avengers.

For 616 style Avengers, I would much rather see it as a TV show like Wolverine and The X-men. And its time the Avengers got a show that was worthy of them to erase all the bad memories of United They Stand. Put the big three in there. Put in Hawkeye, Hank Pym, Wasp, and the rest and you got a good show there.

Work in some of the Busiek stuff with Kang and Ultron. Maybe mix it in with the Secret Invasion or something. I would much rather see those stories as an ongoing animated series.

 

[Dread]

Casey Jones is the Man.

I keep meaning to go back to my Dr. Fate avatar, but I never get around to it.

I think the only part of the Next Avengers DVD I actually liked were the sneak previews of Wolverine VS. Hulk and Hulk VS. Thor, even though they look to be thin on plot and I'm not sure I like these new Thor character designs I'm seeing in both NA and Hulk_VS_Thor - or the Wolverine design for that matter - although they are based on the classic Thor design we all know and love, something just looks... off about it (and I'm finding that I miss hearing David Boat's voice coming out of Thor's mouth). Certainly not as solid as the Thor design from Ultimate Avengers (which actually reminded me of Tyler Mane), or the Thor design seen back in the mid-90s when he guest starred on Fantastic Four and Incredible Hulk (voiced by John Rhys-Davies). Still, a nice smackdown between Thor & Hulk is certainly preferable to Thor-as-irresponsible-father-deadbeat-friend.

I admit that the VS. trailers look great (considering they're just two beat-'em-up movies) with some good animation and, gasp, mature content. Granted, violence hasn't usually been a problem for the Marvel LG team. The ULTIMATE AVENGERS films had a lot of alien slaughter, after all.

I wouldn't say that those previews were the ONLY good things about NEXT AVENGERS, though. I liked a lot of the design work. Tom Kane's Iron Man and Ultron performances were top notch, and both were written well. I also liked Vision. If anything, this DTV at least provided faithful versions of Vision and Ultron. Like I said, they were crying out for a better film. I HATED the Ultron origin change, though. Maybe if they hadn't written Pym as a ridiculous, annoying clown child, they wouldn't have been so afraid to mix his legacy with Ultron. Why not have even made him leader? No, Cap's kid with the shield is the leader; it is that lack of imagination that irritated me about the teenage characters. They were very typical. I've seen more creative and unique takes on Avenger children from message boards. My philosophy is, if you're going to bypass established characters for an original one, make them ORIGINAL.

"Old Hulk" had his moments, but I've seen him a lot lately. He and Iron Man have shown up in virtually every DTV thus far, and soon Hulk will overtake him.

The action wasn't bad, even if it was against robots (the most typical cartoon enemies in existance). Still, the best Marvel LG fight sequence is still Ultimate Avengers vs. Hulk, and that used the ULTIMATES comic as a loose storyboard for the key beats. Without that, the action's been more hit or miss.

I also agree with missing Dave Boat's Thor. He was great. But hopefully with some more experience, this new Thor gets up to speed. It was good seeing Thor's classic costume animated in the VS. teaser.

FYI, Thor's alter ego has a cameo in DOCTOR STRANGE; "Paging Doctor Donald Blake..."

I think you guys are taking this show too personally because it's not a 616 style Avengers movie, which it never meant to be in the first place. It's a gateway animated movie for the kids.

The Ultimate Avengers are more like the 616 versions than the Ultimate version. They took just about all the Miller/Hitch elements out of those except for the character designs.

We take it personally because we have been denied a proper Avengers show for so long, and that we feel it could have been an equal gateway to kids. Inserting kid characters is pandering, and even kids know that. Kids don't want to see Iron Man's son. They want IRON MAN. They don't want Captain America's kid; they want CAPTAIN AMERICA. And so on.

While the ULTIMATE AVENGERS films are smoothed down, they're more Ultimate than 616. They're just not as bleak or cynical as Millar wrote them, nor mired in Leftist Propaganda.

Honestly I disagree. Here's why BizarroAids. For the animated movies they are doing Ultimate Avengers.

For 616 style Avengers, I would much rather see it as a TV show like Wolverine and The X-men. And its time the Avengers got a show that was worthy of them to erase all the bad memories of United They Stand. Put the big three in there. Put in Hawkeye, Hank Pym, Wasp, and the rest and you got a good show there.

Work in some of the Busiek stuff with Kang and Ultron. Maybe mix it in with the Secret Invasion or something. I would much rather see those stories as an ongoing animated series.

I'd love an Avengers cartoon on TV in that style. The problem is that we will never get one. Why? Because of the belief that only kids can connect to kids, which is what NEXT AVENGERS symbolizes, that fear to introduce the "crusty, non Ultimate militarized" heroes to children (or teens or even adults).

The only hope for an Avengers cartoon on TV will be after the movie, if it gets made, and it will likely be more like the movie than the comics. Ideally, releasing an Avengers cartoon NOW would allow a few seasons to jazz kids up more for the live action idea. But it makes so much sense, it has no chance.

 

[TheVileOne]

Oy vey. Dread, you are the one being cynical. Wolverine and The X-men is a virtually all adult cast. They are all grown-ups. It's established early in the series. This is after X-men Evolution where they de-aged and juvenilized a lot of the character. They made Jamie Madrox a 12 year old.

And that was a good show.

Also these characters weren't that young. They were all teenagers except for maybe Pym. This is merely an elseworlds alternate story, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's apparently selling well, so again I don't see the problem here.

If Marvel is serious about an Avengers movie, I would easily expect we could see more animation down the line about Avengers.

 

[Dread]

Oy vey. Dread, you are the one being cynical. Wolverine and The X-men is a virtually all adult cast. They are all grown-ups. It's established early in the series. This is after X-men Evolution where they de-aged and juvenilized a lot of the character. They made Jamie Madrox a 12 year old.

And that was a good show.

I haven't seen WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN yet but it has been obvious for a while that the X-Men are the only team that Marvel appears to take seriously in animation. Not even the Fantastic Four usually fare as well. The Avengers are the red headed stepchild compared to the X-Men in terms of marketting. Which, ironically, is untrue of the comics right now. The Avengers are the launching pad for most of Marvel now, with the X-Men mostly doing their own thing.

Comparing how the X-Men and Avengers are treated on TV is almost like comparing Spider-Man and Captain America. One is usually given more importance. I'm sure WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN is at least decent, and better than this.

The X-Men have had 3 cartoon series now. Two appear to be very faithful to the comics. The Avengers have had one, and it was crap. The DTV's seem content to offer anything OTHER than a 616 version. Ultimate, What If's, what next? Avengers Zombies?

Also these characters weren't that young. They were all teenagers except for maybe Pym. This is merely an elseworlds alternate story, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's apparently selling well, so again I don't see the problem here.

If Marvel is serious about an Avengers movie, I would easily expect we could see more animation down the line about Avengers.

But that's my thing; I DON'T think they're serious about an Avengers TV series or DTV that isn't kiddified or Ultimate-translating.

That is like if WB released Elseworlds stories of the JLA without at least giving a series on TV a decent go, and they did. It wasn't 100% faithful but it took a lot from the comics and had more faith in those crusty oldies than Marvel seems to have in classic iconic Avengers. B'WANNA BEAST starred in an episode, for chrissakes, but Marvel's too scared to make any Avenger cartoon that isn't Ultimate or elseworlds.

I saw NEXT AVENGERS as a typical franchise product in the premise. Stock child cliches forced into hero roles to relate to children, or try to. Instead of allowing the Avengers to sell themselves to kids, they rely on children, all of whom were fairly generic stereotypes we have seen many times before. A lot of it felt like going through the motions.

NEXT AVENGERS wasn't terrible, but the missed potential was staggering. I almost hate that more than an outright lousy product.

 

[TheVileOne]

The JL and JLU series was all essentially an elseworlds story.

Something like the JLU has certainly never been around. Didn't exactly follow the classic comic stories.

 

[Dread]

The JL and JLU series was all essentially an elseworlds story.

Something like the JLU has certainly never been around. Didn't exactly follow the classic comic stories.

No, but it blended and adapted many of them, and provided a lot of classic and accurate depictions.

Avengers hasn't gotten that. And as long as people believe an audience needs kids to lead them, never will. That was what was frustrating about this DTV. The seeds to a better story were squashed by typical teenage hero cliches.

 

[TheVileOne]

That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with this particular story because you haven't gotten the Avengers animation you want yet.

 

[Dread]

That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with this particular story because you haven't gotten the Avengers animation you want yet.

Picture this; imagine an alternate universe where the X-Men have never gotten an animated series, aside for a one season flop in the late 90's that was a horrid abomination. Aside for token guest spots on other shows or loose adaptations of Ultimate X-Men, the "classic" X-Men never had a go on the small or large screen.

Then, in 2008, a DTV called NEXT X-MEN debuts. It has Wolverine as a crusty old mentor to the children of the X-Men in the future (with appearances by Rogue and Beast, who also are older adults now). These kids are none of the many characters officially created by Marvel, but ones who fit every single "kid character" cliche to a T. A perfect translation of Mr. Sinister is established and there are numerous nods to fanboys about classic comic book interactions that they have yet to see in animation, thus there is little context.

Most X-Men fans in this alternate universe might appreciate those nods, but may also feel that it seems like a "tease" and may even grow frustrated that no incarnation of the "classic" X-Men has been made into a show.

That, in a sense, is my case with NEXT AVENGERS.

Now, I know before you say it that none of the X-Men cartoons were EXACTLY like the comics. But the 90's series offered loose translations of many classic stories and dynamics. They even integrated that the "core five" were Cyclops, Jean, Beast, and Angel by season 3-4, even when it contradicted stuff from Season 1.

I still found plenty wrong with this particular "elseworlds" Avengers story besides throwing my arms in the air and screaming, "WHHYY!?" I thought the kids were tired, stock cliches who often got typical or, in the case of Pym, painfully annoying lines. They played to type and there was little originality in their creation. Cap's kid is the leader with a shield, Thor's daughter the stoic warrior, Hank Pym's son the awkward nerd, boring, boring, BORING. It isn't the first boring original teen character from Yost & Kyle; when X-23 originally showed up in X-MEN EVOLUTION, she was more of a concept than a character and I hardly recall any fan of the show genuinely liking her. She needed a 616 introduction to get "fleshed". And guess what? X-23 is basically exactly the same as Wolverine with the exact same origin and dilemmas. She has nothing unique about her aside for some design quirks. If Kyle & Yost had to make original Avengers Teens, I would have liked for them to really be original and not spoon feed cliches that, frankly, any fanboy with 5 minutes and a sheet of paper could have thought up. I'd argue the one who was potentially the most unique, Azari, got the shortest end of the stick. And even he played to type.

The ending was too convenient, and the kids were inept for much of the middle. If this is "kids acting like kids", then it's a real turn off. I hated stupid kids in superhero shows even when I WAS a "stupid kid". I HATED stuff like I'VE GOT BATMAN IN MY BASEMENT or Zach the 5th Ninja Turtle when I was within that age range. I thought they distracted from the hero(es) I wanted to watch and root for.

Ultron's origin was needlessly mangled to insert more pep for Iron Man, who needs none. Thor was a cad. The Hulk's inclusion felt more obligatory than organic. Frankly, the exact same movie only inserting a quest through Asgard to have Thor beat Ultron rather than Hulk would have worked out better for the story as a whole.

My favorite moments, characters, and bits from the flick rarely involved the kids themselves.

 

[BizarroAids]

Honestly I disagree. Here's why BizarroAids. For the animated movies they are doing Ultimate Avengers.

For 616 style Avengers, I would much rather see it as a TV show like Wolverine and The X-men. And its time the Avengers got a show that was worthy of them to erase all the bad memories of United They Stand. Put the big three in there. Put in Hawkeye, Hank Pym, Wasp, and the rest and you got a good show there.

Work in some of the Busiek stuff with Kang and Ultron. Maybe mix it in with the Secret Invasion or something. I would much rather see those stories as an ongoing animated series.

Now wait a minute man, I didn't realize you were mentioning a tv show, or I would've retracted what I said in the first place. I try to shake off UTS, there were like 2 episoded that featured Cap, Iron Man, the rest were garbage.

But yeah, I'm all for that, if I was given a choice over a 616 movie or tv show. I don't know how you feel, but the mid to late 90s were some of my favorite Avengers storylines. Hell, I'd be happy if this story started basically back in 60s style (not art wise). Just because I love the colorful approach of the old school Avengers.

So, yeah, I agree. I thought we were talking about movies.

I will say this, I don't know about anyone else, but I loved seeing Vision. It's about time he got some screen time.

 

[TheVileOne]

Picture this; imagine an alternate universe where the X-Men have never gotten an animated series, aside for a one season flop in the late 90's that was a horrid abomination. Aside for token guest spots on other shows or loose adaptations of Ultimate X-Men, the "classic" X-Men never had a go on the small or large screen.

Then, in 2008, a DTV called NEXT X-MEN debuts. It has Wolverine as a crusty old mentor to the children of the X-Men in the future (with appearances by Rogue and Beast, who also are older adults now). These kids are none of the many characters officially created by Marvel, but ones who fit every single "kid character" cliche to a T. A perfect translation of Mr. Sinister is established and there are numerous nods to fanboys about classic comic book interactions that they have yet to see in animation, thus there is little context.

Most X-Men fans in this alternate universe might appreciate those nods, but may also feel that it seems like a "tease" and may even grow frustrated that no incarnation of the "classic" X-Men has been made into a show.

That, in a sense, is my case with NEXT AVENGERS.

Now, I know before you say it that none of the X-Men cartoons were EXACTLY like the comics. But the 90's series offered loose translations of many classic stories and dynamics. They even integrated that the "core five" were Cyclops, Jean, Beast, and Angel by season 3-4, even when it contradicted stuff from Season 1.

I still found plenty wrong with this particular "elseworlds" Avengers story besides throwing my arms in the air and screaming, "WHHYY!?" I thought the kids were tired, stock cliches who often got typical or, in the case of Pym, painfully annoying lines. They played to type and there was little originality in their creation. Cap's kid is the leader with a shield, Thor's daughter the stoic warrior, Hank Pym's son the awkward nerd, boring, boring, BORING. It isn't the first boring original teen character from Yost & Kyle; when X-23 originally showed up in X-MEN EVOLUTION, she was more of a concept than a character and I hardly recall any fan of the show genuinely liking her. She needed a 616 introduction to get "fleshed". And guess what? X-23 is basically exactly the same as Wolverine with the exact same origin and dilemmas. She has nothing unique about her aside for some design quirks. If Kyle & Yost had to make original Avengers Teens, I would have liked for them to really be original and not spoon feed cliches that, frankly, any fanboy with 5 minutes and a sheet of paper could have thought up. I'd argue the one who was potentially the most unique, Azari, got the shortest end of the stick. And even he played to type.

The ending was too convenient, and the kids were inept for much of the middle. If this is "kids acting like kids", then it's a real turn off. I hated stupid kids in superhero shows even when I WAS a "stupid kid". I HATED stuff like I'VE GOT BATMAN IN MY BASEMENT or Zach the 5th Ninja Turtle when I was within that age range. I thought they distracted from the hero(es) I wanted to watch and root for.

Ultron's origin was needlessly mangled to insert more pep for Iron Man, who needs none. Thor was a cad. The Hulk's inclusion felt more obligatory than organic. Frankly, the exact same movie only inserting a quest through Asgard to have Thor beat Ultron rather than Hulk would have worked out better for the story as a whole.

My favorite moments, characters, and bits from the flick rarely involved the kids themselves.

Put in some equivalents of the Ultimate Avengers animations into your bizarro world.

Also Dread, just for the sake of sour grapes:

Wolverine and The X-men > New TMNT and JLU

 

[Dread]

Put in some equivalents of the Ultimate Avengers animations into your bizarro world.

Also Dread, just for the sake of sour grapes:

Wolverine and The X-men > New TMNT and JLU

WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN hasn't had enough episodes to compare to TMNT and JLU.

 

[TheVileOne]

It has 26 episodes. that's a good chunk of episodes. Some animated TV shows don't even get that many.

But in just 3 episodes, I know it is better than JLU .

 

[Dread]

It has 26 episodes. that's a good chunk of episodes. Some animated TV shows don't even get that many.

But in just 3 episodes, I know it is better than JLU .

I haven't seen all 26 episodes and thus it cannot be judged against those shows yet.

You have a grudge against JLU. It was the culmination of over a decade's worth of shows and hasn't been matched yet. It's the team cartoon to beat. After the season finale of W&TXM, it may be easier to make a comparison. W&TXM certainly won't outdo JLU with boring fights against robots and soldiers.

TMNT from 2003-2006 before they went Fast Forward was just epic and under appreciated.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Having seen the first two episodes, I'd put it ahead of where JL and JLU were in their respective debuts, but I agree, it's got a ways to go before making that kind of call. The potential to surpass "Cadmus" is there.

EDIT - Checking back, JLU's second episode was For The Man Who Has Everything; okay, that trumps WatXM; so it goes JLU > WatXM > JL.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah because they never fought robots and soldiers on JLU.

 

[Hellstormer]

I saw the first ep of Wolverine and it's blasphemy to put it in the same league of Justice League. Let's be honest its a Wolverine show guest starring the X-Men. The first episode too forever to get rolling and the only good part was when Rockslide, Pyro, Boom Boom, Dust, and Wolfsbane showed up.

 

[Dread]

Hard results:

http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd/charts/weekly/thisweek.php

That is the release information on NEXT AVENGERS. It states that in it's premire week, it sold 64,000 copies and earned a little over $964,000.

In comparison, here are the numbers for the last few Lions Gate DTV's with Marvel:

DOCTOR STRANGE: 100,218 copies = over $1.5 million
INVINCIBLE IRON MAN: 251,758 copies = over $3.2 million
ULTIMATE AVENGERS 2: 260,275 copies = over $3.6 million
The first week release of ULTIMATE AVENGERS isn't listed but Marvel & Lion's Gate have been quoted as saying it was their "top seller".

These numbers only reflect the sales for the debut week and don't list reorders or "shelf life". The IRON MAN movie naturally increased interest for the INVINCIBLE IRON MAN DVD, at least in some chains like Best Buy.

Marvel poo-poo'd NEXT AVENGERS' numbers, lower than the DOCTOR STRANGE numbers which once were decried, as claiming that, basically, because it is a kid-centered flick, it will have a "long shelf life", and it did crack the Top 10 for that DVD release week: http://marvel.toonzone.net/news.php?action=fullnews&id=87

However, I am not as kind. Considering a B-List, little known character like DOCTOR STRANGE sold over 30% better in it's launch week, I'd consider the release a bit of an underestimation. Maybe kids aren't so stupid after all that they fall for obvious pandering. Or maybe the DTV buying audience isn't looking for material exclusively geared for kids with little experience of Marvel or adventure stories in general. And quite frankly, the ULTIMATE AVENGERS films have proved to have a long shelf life for over a year, so mindlessly assuming the "Avenger Babies" version will surpass UA 1 & 2 is, if anything, overly optimistic. NA would need to TRIPLE it's launch week sales AND UA 1 & 2 would need to go out of print for that to happen. Heck, it may take a good year just to surpass DOCTOR STRANGE's sales, which were considered too "low" for a sequel.

At any rate, the WOLVERINE VS. DTV likely will sell very well.

 

[steelio2006]

i thought it was meh. i'd have to agree with everyone else bout this. it was meh. but i didnt pay much attention to it. might have to give it another shot and watch it.

 

[Dr. Fate]

I saw the first ep of Wolverine and it's blasphemy to put it in the same league of Justice League. Let's be honest its a Wolverine show guest starring the X-Men. The first episode too forever to get rolling and the only good part was when Rockslide, Pyro, Boom Boom, Dust, and Wolfsbane showed up.

Kind of like how the X-Men movies were more like Wolverine movies guest starring the X-Men.

i thought it was meh. i'd have to agree with everyone else bout this. it was meh. but i didnt pay much attention to it. might have to give it another shot and watch it.

I haven't watched it since the initial viewing. Like Dread said, most of the best moments came from the REAL Avenger characters like Iron Man, rather than the kids, and even those moments like old Tony Stark saying "He [Hawkeye] would have punched me in the face, and then he would have helped me." prompting a "Whoa! You really did know my dad!" response can get me to give it a 2nd viewing.