Who is Marvel's prep time hero?

[BrianWilly]

Wasn't it Reed's own conceit that simply didn't allow him to grasp magic. If he were to look at it as an a new type of science with its own set of rules, he might not have as much of a problem with it as he has had in the past. Or is there an intangibility to magic that prevents it from being disected in too analytic a manner? Also, since Reed constantly beats Doom, who is just below Doc Strange in the master of the mystic arts, I am not quite so sure that Doc would own Reed. He may ultimately defeat him, but it would not be easy.

The very reason that Reed couldn't grasp magic was because he was looking at it like it was a "new type of science." Yes, his ego had a lot to do with it, but mostly his ego was just preventing him from being open-minded about the situation. And magic requires open-mindedness. He insisted that magic was simply science that he hadn't bothered to study, but that's not the case; magic in the Marvel universe may just be another form of energy, but it is nonetheless still definitely not science. Even if you go through the exact physical motions and utter the exact verbal phrases that Dr. Strange does in his spells, chances are that absolutely nothing will happen or that, worse, something you completely didn't expect to happen would happen.

In the end, Dr. Strange had to give him a "cheat" for him to be able to use magic at all.

Incidentally, the idea that Dr. Doom is some sort of master magician is also a bit (read: a lot) of a misinterpretation. During a competition between the master magicians of the world to become Sorcerer Supreme, he beat out a lot of other sorcerers but it was actually due to his technological skills compensating for his lack of magical power. He himself admitted this. Unlike Reed, Doom grew up around magic and was far more open-minded about it. But like Reed, Doom also is too used to thinking of magic like a tool, a sort of "study" that he could utterly conquer if ever he wanted to. And ultimately that led to him getting his ass stuck in hell. The sort of magic that he was performing, that of entreating otherdimensional/demonic entities for power and bargaining, requires the utmost in humility and caution and any amateur magician would have known that. Doom must have known, and he simply didn't care.

 

[ElectroFlare]

I've heard on messages boards about a comic or comic arc where there is an imitator of the Punisher...and he goes through a complete mission, and declares it a success.

Frank points out the fact that the imitator didn't account for a little girl or someone else that was behind a wall or something...and got caught in the cross fire. That one mistake that Frank wouldn't have made.

Of course, I repeat, I heard this on a message board...

 

[Fading]

I agree it's probably the punisher, but just to mix it up a little, what about Ironman?

Given a little warning, like if he knew Hulk was coming to fight him, he builds Hulk buster armor. Or if he knew Thor was ticked, he makes a Thor buster armor. Heck for a long time when I looked at Ironman I saw someone who looked similar to Bruce, both are rich and have butlers, normal power guys who use technology to beat some of the world's finest. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Sentry buster suit come out eventually. Plus in a few stories he's modified his armor on the spot for whatever situation he's in, like against ultron modifying part of his suit on his arm to emit some ray to destroy the non partial adamantium Ultron's. Then there's the ify way they made him part of the iluminati, how he might be spying on Spiderman thru his suit, heck he might have been doing the same to other hero's so he'd know there weakness to build technology specifically to beat them.

Still tho agree it's punisher. Reed's is great at prep time, but some of his best work is more on the spot, like against Doom, forget which issue (and don't wanna dig it up). Anyway where Doom had the power of a Watcher and Reed's beam wasn't hurting him, so mid fight he rigs it so Blackbolt can yell in it and increase it's power. Punisher is more the days and weeks, stalking, waiting to attack while preparing type, Richards is the "crap a commets gonna hit Earth in 3 hours I need a device quick" type.

 

[gildea]

I've heard on messages boards about a comic or comic arc where there is an imitator of the Punisher...and he goes through a complete mission, and declares it a success.

Frank points out the fact that the imitator didn't account for a little girl or someone else that was behind a wall or something...and got caught in the cross fire. That one mistake that Frank wouldn't have made.

Of course, I repeat, I heard this on a message board...

That sounds like at the end of welcome back frank.

the imitator was called mr payback

 

[Sebastos]

The Punisher. Period!

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Wasn't it Reed's own conceit that simply didn't allow him to grasp magic. If he were to look at it as an a new type of science with its own set of rules, he might not have as much of a problem with it as he has had in the past. Or is there an intangibility to magic that prevents it from being disected in too analytic a manner? Also, since Reed constantly beats Doom, who is just below Doc Strange in the master of the mystic arts, I am not quite so sure that Doc would own Reed. He may ultimately defeat him, but it would not be easy.

I've had this arguement before, not on the boards, but in the real world, about how someone who studies physics and adheres to those rules simply couldn't understand magic, since it's initial rule of energy creation basically threw every law out the window. It'd be like learning a new language without an old language to back it up on.

 

[Anubis]

BP, Reed Richards, Punisher, and.....Baron Zemo.

 

[Whirlysplat]

I've had this arguement before, not on the boards, but in the real world, about how someone who studies physics and adheres to those rules simply couldn't understand magic, since it's initial rule of energy creation basically threw every law out the window. It'd be like learning a new language without an old language to back it up on.

The television would be considered magic to someone who lived two hundred years ago. How do you know how energy is created, used in magic? (for the sake of this discussion we will suspend disbelief on magic). How do you know it is not a manifestation of some existing physical law? Quantum probability is in many ways very much like magic. Magic is by definition highly unlikely and difficult to explain. Many things thought to have highly unlikely and still difficult to explain have come to be accepted as ordinary reality. In physics laboratories such magical actions have been shown to be commonplace. Perhaps the simplest example would be the electron which is known to routinely jump from one orbital to another with no passage of time and without transversing the intervening space. Or particles existing in numerous places all at the same time. Scientists are used to learning new languages which act very differently to old ones. Some come to terms with it, others don't. Eistein's response to the uncertainty principle was "God does not play dice", sadly he could never work out where a particle was with certainty, he really tried hard. Read"In search of Schrondinger's cat"! The uncerainty principle is magic it means you can't say for certain where a particle is at any given moment, if you could control observation as Hugh Everett's many worlds interpretation of Quantum theory goes you could make anything happen!

- Whirly

 

[Docker2.0]

Black Panther originated prep time. Batman basically stole it from him. My vote goes to BP.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Black Panther originated prep time. Batman basically stole it from him. My vote goes to BP.

Dr. Strange with prep has taken on Galactus and the Inbetweener at different timesl.

Iron man has taken on King Thor.

Those guys do well with prep.

- Whirly

 

[ElectroFlare]

Dr. Strange took on the Trib?

I must read this! What issue?

 

[Whirlysplat]

Dr. Strange took on the Trib?

I must read this! What issue?

Sorry I meant the inbetweener, Freudian Whirly, corrected with apologies.

here's a scan.

http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ib31wr.jpg

- Whirly

 

[Docker2.0]

Dr. Strange with prep has taken on Galactus and the Living Tribunal.

Iron man has taken on King Thor.

Those guys do well with prep.

- Whirly

why did you quote me? I know Dr. Strange does good with prep time, heck with prep time, I could kill Batman, which makes it stupid. Another stupid thing, how the heck can Dr. Strange defeat the Living Tribunal? that is ridiculous! Then get beat by the Sentry?!

 

[ElectroFlare]

Oh...I was gonna say...If Doc Strange took on the Trib...and won...wouldn't that make Doc the One Above All? Funny comic it would be...

 

[Whirlysplat]

why did you quote me? I know Dr. Strange does good with prep time, heck with prep time, I could kill Batman, which makes it stupid. Another stupid thing, how the heck can Dr. Strange defeat the Living Tribunal? that is ridiculous! Then get beat by the Sentry?!

he can't Freudian on my part, he beat the inbetweener. Dread D, Galactus etc.
Why did I quote you?
Why not? Your post was above me, nothing sinister mate.

- Whirly

 

[Whirlysplat]

Oh...I was gonna say...If Doc Strange took on the Trib...and won...wouldn't that make Doc the One Above All? Funny comic it would be...

The "Doc above all".

- Whirly

 

[Whirlysplat]

Here's where the LT fails to stop Strange reaching his goal though

http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ibet10wf.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=inbe26ta.jpg

http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=inbe38cg.jpg

Does that count as beating him?

- Whirly

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Not really. It looks like he still gets his ass handed to him by the In-Betweener, even though he manages to get a lucky spell off to Rom.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Not really. It looks like he still gets his ass handed to him by the In-Betweener, even though he manages to get a lucky spell off to Rom.

Nah, look here the Inbetweener admits defeat

http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ib31wr.jpg


- Whirly

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Is that from the same fight? Either way, it looks like the LT basically just judged that Strange had wronged the balance and that, rather than destroying him outright, he'd give him a chance to fight for his life by pitting him against the In-Betweener again, only without the option to go over the IB's head to Chaos and Order. Not really a "win" over the LT for Strange, in my estimation. I could be taking it out of context, since I have only those few pages to go on, though.

 

[Roughneck]

I still say Punisher....Go read Confereacy of Dunces.

You wanna see what his prep time can be? It consists of Kidnapping Bruce Banner, keping him calm, and fedding him Plastic Explosives, unleashing him on Daredevil, Spiderman and Wolverine....Who he also prep timed the **** out of but trapping Spidey with a clamore and hitting Wolverine with a rocket.

Then when they were out he detonated the bomb in hulks Stomach to take him out.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You can't really count anything Garth Ennis has written seriously if it involves superheroes. He writes them like they're ******ed.

 

[BrianWilly]

The television would be considered magic to someone who lived two hundred years ago. How do you know how energy is created, used in magic? (for the sake of this discussion we will suspend disbelief on magic). How do you know it is not a manifestation of some existing physical law? Quantum probability is in many ways very much like magic. Magic is by definition highly unlikely and difficult to explain. Many things thought to have highly unlikely and still difficult to explain have come to be accepted as ordinary reality. In physics laboratories such magical actions have been shown to be commonplace. Perhaps the simplest example would be the electron which is known to routinely jump from one orbital to another with no passage of time and without transversing the intervening space. Or particles existing in numerous places all at the same time. Scientists are used to learning new languages which act very differently to old ones. Some come to terms with it, others don't. Eistein's response to the uncertainty principle was "God does not play dice", sadly he could never work out where a particle was with certainty, he really tried hard. Read"In search of Schrondinger's cat"! The uncerainty principle is magic it means you can't say for certain where a particle is at any given moment, if you could control observation as Hugh Everett's many worlds interpretation of Quantum theory goes you could make anything happen!

- Whirly

I've never liked or understood the argument that the more "advanced" magic and science are, the more that they resemble each other. In my opinion, the more advanced magic is or the more advanced science is, the more distinct they should be from each other.

Just because physics seems impossible to understand and feels like "magic" for someone without the requisite training doesn't mean it is impossible to understand. Someone who goes to the right science classes and spends the time learning the material will eventually see that, no, physics isn't actually magic at all. Yes, someone who doesn't spend that time may perceive physics as he perceives magic...but outside of the most metaphysical and esoteric interpretations, perception isn't reality. The reality is that physics and all other sciences, no matter how advanced, don't work like magic.

And the same goes for the other way around. Throwing fireballs and flying and turning things into other things...basically, manipulating energy through unseen means, which sounds pretty logical and scientific, if not altogether understandable. So anyone should be able to do those things through scientific means, right? But for people who actually practice this magic, like Dr. Strange or Zatanna or whoever, they know that that it's not like science at all, that it is far more abstract and far more faith-based and far more -- frankly -- irrational than anything that could be explained through empiricism and science. And that the more advanced, higher magic that you practice, the more abstract and faith-based that it becomes.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I've always preferred the view that magic and science are two separate entities. The comics back that idea up for the most part, too. The Silver Surfer and Quasar can control all energy except magic, for example.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

The Surfer can generate and manipulate magic also. I think that it was in the Cosmic Powers series that he studies the Odinforce and learns to use his power cosmic to generate the same power. He essentially replicated the Odinforce to use to transform Beta Ray Bill.