Who loves Jean more? Logan or Scott?

[MilkmanDan]

Bull. It's not Scott, it's the writers? That doesn't work, since they write Scott. What Scott did is what Scott did in canon, and doesn't matter who wrote it.

True. Unfortunatelly we have to take the characters as they are written even when we disagree with the writer's view of those characters. Scott is a man who has two failed marriages behind him. It is canon and we have to take that into consideration when we talk about him as a husband and a lover.

 

[D-scythe]

Bull. It's not Scott, it's the writers? That doesn't work, since they write Scott. What Scott did is what Scott did in canon, and doesn't matter who wrote it.

I know you're talking to someone else, and what you say is true. It is canon. But I'm just pointing out the fact that pre-Morrison, Scott adored Jean.

True. Unfortunatelly we have to take the characters as they are written even when we disagree with the writer's view of those characters. Scott is a man who has two failed marriages behind him. It is canon and we have to take that into consideration when we talk about him as a husband and a lover.

Well, we also have to take into consideration that he DID merge with Apocalypse. And again, pre-Morrison, Jean had Scott wrapped around her pinkie finger. There was no way anyone coulda doubted him as a husband and a lover.

 

[Harlekin]

I know you're talking to someone else, and what you say is true. It is canon. But I'm just pointing out the fact that pre-Morrison, Scott adored Jean.

Yes, true. Then again, he also lusted after Psylocke. He still adores Jean, which has become clear time and time again, but things have changed. He adores her in a different way now.

Well, we also have to take into consideration that he DID merge with Apocalypse. And again, pre-Morrison, Jean had Scott wrapped around her pinkie finger. There was no way anyone coulda doubted him as a husband and a lover.

Except when he left Madelyne and his newly-born baby. Cyclop's husbandry has always been put into question. The following villification of Madelyne was merely a tool to justify Cyclops' still odd actions.

 

[D-scythe]

Yes, true. Then again, he also lusted after Psylocke. He still adores Jean, which has become clear time and time again, but things have changed. He adores her in a different way now.

And Jean was attracted Logan. And both Scott and Jean turned Psylocke and Logan down, respectively.

Except when he left Madelyne and his newly-born baby. Cyclop's husbandry has always been put into question. The following villification of Madelyne was merely a tool to justify Cyclops' still odd actions.

What? So when the writers turn Madelyne into a villain, it's just a means to justify what Scott did? But when Morrison turns Scott into a cheater, Scott is a bad husband?

What's with the double standard? Canon is canon.

And to be fair to Scott, technically, he was married to the same woman - Jean Grey - twice. Even if he did marry Madelyne, she was his substitute to Jean Grey. Prior to Morrison, there was no question who Scott loved since the beginning.

 

[Harlekin]

And Jean was attracted Logan. And both Scott and Jean turned Psylocke and Logan down, respectively.

True. Just pointing out that although they loved each other a lot, there were other people they really liked too.

What? So when the writers turn Madelyne into a villain, it's just a means to justify what Scott did? But when Morrison turns Scott into a cheater, Scott is a bad husband?

What's with the double standard? Canon is canon.

I don't think you got my point. Scott is a bad husband. I was referring to people who tend to justify his actions with the fact that Madelyne eventually turned evil. You however were the one who didn't doubt his qualification as a husband for one second, attributing that change to Morrison, even though Scott's been a bad husband for over two decades now.

And to be fair to Scott, technically, he was married to the same woman - Jean Grey - twice. Even if he did marry Madelyne, she was his substitute to Jean Grey. Prior to Morrison, there was no question who Scott loved since the beginning.

To some extent, this is true, but that's how it always is. Things stay the same untill a different writer shakes things up. Again, I'll repeat though, Scott still adores Jean, just in a different way. People, and fictional characters change over time.

 

[D-scythe]

You however were the one who didn't doubt his qualification as a husband for one second, attributing that change to Morrison, even though Scott's been a bad husband for over two decades now.

Not true. I don't like how Scott treated Madelyne either. All I'm saying is that nobody could have doubted Scott's qualification as Jean's husband in the period prior to Morrison. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

He proposed to Phoenix whom he thought was Jean. He married Madelyne because she reminded him of Jean (turned out they were clones). He left Madelyne and their baby because of Jean. He started X-Factor with Jean. And it goes on. He married Madelyne for the wrong reasons, so in terms of that marriage, Scott was a bad husband to Madelyne.

And yes, I attributed the change in Scott's behavior to Morrison, but I still accept it as canon. I don't think anyone can dispute that in 40 or so issues Morrison basically rewrote over 40 years of Scott Summers into what he thought he should be. It was a radical change for his character, probably the most radical in Scott's history.

 

[Harlekin]

Not true. I don't like how Scott treated Madelyne either. All I'm saying is that nobody could have doubted Scott's qualification as Jean's husband in the period prior to Morrison. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Ah, but that's not the words you used. You were simply using the term 'husband'. It's probably a case of you not being clear enough and me not picking that up...

Either way, I'll agree with you that it probably wouldn't have been put into the question that Cycke would be Jean's perfect husband. Then again, we think that about people in our own lives as well. Many thought Cycke would probably stick by Madelyne too (after all, this was before rampant character ressurections). They were wrong too.

And yes, I attributed the change in Scott's behavior to Morrison, but I still accept it as canon. I don't think anyone can dispute that in 40 or so issues Morrison basically rewrote over 40 years of Scott Summers into what he thought he should be. It was a radical change for his character, probably the most radical in Scott's history.

He didn't rewrite a thing. He built on those 40 years and went into a different path then everyone expected. Please point out what he rewrote about Scott? All of his actions, all of his choices were the same, and with the same justification that he used back then. What Morrison did change however, was the present. His work wasn't a rewrite, it was writing. What he proceeded to do, I'll give you, was unexpected (and therefore, by extension, rather radical).

 

[D-scythe]

He didn't rewrite a thing. He built on those 40 years and went into a different path then everyone expected. Please point out what he rewrote about Scott? All of his actions, all of his choices were the same, and with the same justification that he used back then. What Morrison did change however, was the present. His work wasn't a rewrite, it was writing. What he proceeded to do, I'll give you, was unexpected (and therefore, by extension, rather radical).

Okay, maybe rewrite is not the correct term. But by taking Scott down a different path, he did change him, and by giving his reasons for Scott to do so, he did in a way rewrite him. And it doesn't matter whether these reasons were built on Scott's past history - many actions of comic characters can be taken out of context/changed to fit the writer's perception of the character.

Just take Jean and the Phoenix. That has been retconned so many times by different writers it's not even funny. Yet each time, each retcon was "based" on "history".

His reasons for Scott cheating telepathically on Jean may have been sound, and built upon Scott's history, but in terms of the character's actions/decision-making it was different from the Scott prior to his merger with Apocalypse. And a character is defined as much by thought (the reasons of why Scott would cheat, based on character history) as by his decisions/actions.

I don't think anyone can say that Scott would have cheated on Jean (with Emma Frost, no less) prior to Morrison's run. Scott's actions were not the same. So while no, Morrison didn't technically "rewrite" the character, he did "change" him.

That's just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own.

 

[Harlekin]

I don't think anyone can say that Scott would have cheated on Jean (with Emma Frost, no less) prior to Morrison's run. So while no, Morrison didn't technically "rewrite" the character, he did "change" him.

Well, it was obviously a change from the usual. Was it a change of Cyclops' character though? As much as him lusting after Psylocke was one. Or his involvement with Lee Forrester after Jean's death (which I doubt many fans would've expected), just as much as his involvement with Colleen Wing, which yes, was also during a time he thought Jean was dead.

There's the difference between a new path and change. The only reason you regard this as such a huge change is because it's still new. When in say twenty years Scott dumps Emma for somebody else, people will probably shout that Cyclops' character was changed irrevocably, because he would never do that. This "change" you speak of is relative. The Psylocke/Lee/Colleen thing were "changes" at the time too, now they're accepted.

Morrison didn't "change" him more than Claremont or Lobdell ever did.

 

[D-scythe]

Well, it was obviously a change from the usual. Was it a change of Cyclops' character though? As much as him lusting after Psylocke was one. Or his involvement with Lee Forrester after Jean's death (which I doubt many fans would've expected), just as much as his involvement with Colleen Wing, which yes, was also during a time he thought Jean was dead.

You can't use those characters to prove your case though. Scott may have been with different woman, but he never cheated on anyone. That's the change, IMO. Fundamentally, Scott was never a cheater until his telepathic affair with Emma while he was still with Jean.

There's the difference between a new path and change. The only reason you regard this as such a huge change is because it's still new. When in say twenty years Scott dumps Emma for somebody else, people will probably shout that Cyclops' character was changed irrevocably, because he would never do that. This "change" you speak of is relative. The Psylocke/Lee/Colleen thing were "changes" at the time too, now they're accepted.

Again, you cannot use Psylocke/Lee/Colleen. The reasoning for these relationships may have been the same, but the actions were not. This isn't about Scott jumping into Emma's bed - this is about Scott jumping into Emma's bed (telepathically, I guess) while he was still with Jean. And as I said before, a character is defined as much by his actions as his thoughts.

 

[Harlekin]

You can't use those characters to prove your case though. Scott may have been with different woman, but he never cheated on anyone. That's the change, IMO. Fundamentally, Scott was never a cheater until his telepathic affair with Emma while he was still with Jean.

They were however things and actions we never expected. I sincerely doubt anyone expected Cycke to be on the rebound that quickly. That's what I'm pointing out. Change is change, no matter the specifics.

Again, you cannot use Psylocke/Lee/Colleen. The reasoning for these relationships may have been the same, but the actions were not. This isn't about Scott jumping into Emma's bed - this is about Scott jumping into Emma's bed (telepathically, I guess) while he was still with Jean. And as I said before, a character is defined as much by his actions as his thoughts.

Yes, and that wasn't necessarily my point. Sure, he didn't cheat, but he did now. They could've done that back then too, but they didn't. The key point was: "Change" is relative. In twenty years this will be an accepted part of Cyclops' history (or completely and utterly retconned away). Then, when he cheats on somebody else, somebody will say: But good golly, the Cycke I know would never cheat on Emma! Well, Cycke is a constantly dynamic character.

Characters will surprise you as people will in real life. The "change" in that sense isn't that much greater than what Claremont did to him (such as him leaving Madelyne, which nobody expected). Heck, I bet there were dozens of Cycke fans that were saying: But good golly, the Cycke I know would never just leave his wife like that! This too would be based on a history that by then spanned more than a decade. In ten years, nobody will bat an eye over the fact that Cycke cheated on Jean.

 

[D-scythe]

They were however things and actions we never expected. I sincerely doubt anyone expected Cycke to be on the rebound that quickly. That's what I'm pointing out. Change is change, no matter the specifics.

Fine then, relatively speaking, don't you think the jump from "a quick rebounder" to cheater is a big change? To me, it's a pretty extreme change.

It's like Islam. The extremists/terrorists think they should rule the world, the West is evil, etc. (as an example). Yet, many Islamist I know don't buy into that belief of Islam. But why? Both the extremists and the everyday people I know both read the Q'uran. Their beliefs stem from the same book.

Same thing with what Morrison did to Cyke. He took an aspect of his character and took it farther than anyone ever has. Which brings me back to my point that Morrison did to him what nobody ever has. So yes, while it may be based on the character's history, it is still a shift of perception for the character.

And IMO, the specifics do count for something. Many times, it's the specifics/fine print that gives a writer more freedom to write his story without fear of retconning anything by accident.

Yes, and that wasn't necessarily my point. Sure, he didn't cheat, but he did now. They could've done that back then too, but they didn't.

Just one correction. Scott could've (cheated) then too, but he didn't.

Characters will surprise you as people will in real life. The "change" in that sense isn't that much greater than what Claremont did to him (such as him leaving Madelyne, which nobody expected). Heck, I bet there were dozens of Cycke fans that were saying: But good golly, the Cycke I know would never just leave his wife like that! This too would be based on a history that by then spanned more than a decade.

True. Understand, I'm not disputing what you say about Cyke, and this "change" between Claremont and Morrison. But at least when Cyke left Madelyne for Jean, at least Cyke and Jean had years of history between them, plus he didn't cheat on Madelyne. With Emma, Morrison did it in a single run of comics. When Scott left Jean (I know, technically he didn't leave her), it was a lot more extreme. First, he cheated on her. And secondly, it leaves some people wondering "What the hell? Emma? That's totally left field!"

In ten years, nobody will bat an eye over the fact that Cycke cheated on Jean.

Maybe, maybe not. If Scott ever got back with Jean, then I gaurantee it will come up again repeatedly though.

 

[Harlekin]

Fine then, relatively speaking, don't you think the jump from "a quick rebounder" to cheater is a big change? To me, it's a pretty extreme change.

It is. I'll give you that.

Same thing with what Morrison did to Cyke. He took an aspect of his character and took it farther than anyone ever has. Which brings me back to my point that Morrison did to him what nobody ever has.

And so did Claremont. And probably in a few years, someone else will do so again. Ain't it great?

True. Understand, I'm not disputing what you say about Cyke, and this "change" between Claremont and Morrison. But at least when Cyke left Madelyne for Jean, at least Cyke and Jean had years of history between them, plus he didn't cheat on Madelyne. With Emma, Morrison did it in a single run of comics. When Scott left Jean (I know, technically he didn't leave her), it was a lot more extreme. First, he cheated on her. And secondly, it leaves some people wondering "What the hell? Emma?"

I'll give it to you. I just don't think Morrison really changed Cyclops all that much. He just took what was there and went a little further, in a shorter time-span.

 

[D-scythe]

I'll give it to you. I just don't think Morrison really changed Cyclops all that much. He just took what was there and went a little further, in a shorter time-span.

Meh, it's a matter of opinion I guess. To me, it was a pretty significant change (I wouldn't say it was a big change, but it did have an impact) made in a much shorter time-span, plus the "other" woman this time was someone Scott didn't really associate himself with in the past. There was some rationale for Scott leaving Maddie for Jean. But the whole Emma thing? I honestly would've preferred Psylocke.

Anyway, as a matter of personal opinion, I thought Scott and Jean looked good together, and didn't get why a good thing had to change. I mean, with other important comic couples, like Sue/Reed and Peter/MJ, they don't cheat with each other, so yeah.

To each his own I guess.

 

[cryptic name]

if i were to ignore years of history, the basic charcter based argument is scott loves jean and logan wants to f**k her. but it's not that simple, nor should it be. logan.

 

[Flash-er]

I think that, after seeing the movie, the question should be who does SHE love more. *highlight for spoiler* After all, she was able to till Cyke but not Wolverine. Even with the healing factor, she should've been able to kill him off without much effort. She was holding back.

 

[D-scythe]

I think that, after seeing the movie, the question should be who does SHE love more. *highlight for spoiler* After all, she was able to till Cyke but not Wolverine. Even with the healing factor, she should've been able to kill him off without much effort. She was holding back.

Okay, X3 was just simply atrocious when it came to Scott's character. Usually, I accept what is written/filmed as canon, but honestly X3 shafted Cyke so bad that I find it hard to believe they can do that to a character. After making up all that crap about "oh yeah, Cyke fans are gonna be pleased because he gets to kick some a$$."

And I'm not even a Cyke fan, although I am a huge fan of the Phoenix story.

Spoiler

Replacing Cyke with Logan is utterly inexcusable, IMO.

It's like having a Justice league movie and having Superman killed off in the first 15 minutes so Batman can waltz in, kick everyone's butt AND capture the heart of Lois Lane.

Think about what happened to Scott.

Spoiler

Even if he is still alive

, what the hell does he have to return to?

Spoiler

Logan already has Jean, plus she's dead. Storm is the leader of the X-men now. Xavier thinks he's inadequete. The whole X-team was just like "OMG, she killed Kenny!" and then forgot about him.

It's ridiculous. Cyke/James Marsden was nothing more than a tool used to make Logan/Jackman look better. Simple as that. And that's the truth - if you ask any non-comic readers out there who loves Jean more (i.e. 99% of X3's audience), they'd say Logan in a heartbeat. Simply because the films were biased in that way. Hell, even some comic readers have converted.

 

[Harlekin]

Hey, D-Scythe, how about a friggin' spoiler space, huh? At least the guy you quoted made an attempt to hide the info. The movie hasn't even been out for more than a week.

 

[grey_jeanie]

Scott!!

 

[D-scythe]

Hey, D-Scythe, how about a friggin' spoiler space, huh? At least the guy you quoted made an attempt to hide the info. The movie hasn't even been out for more than a week.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that everyone saw the movie here. My bad.

 

[tallsy_1]

Except for the hardest of hard core Wolverine fanboys or Cyke haters (and those two groups do overlap) is this even a real question. Cyclops/Jean is the romance of X-Men. I know many people who have never picked up a comic book in their life but know how the Phoenix Saga goes.