Homecoming Who should reboot villain be? (Poll Version)

[Spider-Aziz]

I'm all for Scorpion.
Hope they don't treat him like the crew responsible for the 90s cartoon did, and make Gargan a fat guy like Ned Leeds informant in the 80s during Roger Stern's run.

Mysterio.

He'd be an awesome choice.
Dude made Spider-Man believe he needs psycho therapy, twice.

The Walrus

Now this could work with a as a follow up.

 

[Spider2099]

Even if they do decide to bring Kraven in for the reboot, I am a little ambivalent about an adaptation of the Kraven's Last Hunt arc. Do not get me wrong, its a fantastic story, but one that would fit in more with a sequel somewhere down the line.

Yeah, that story arc shouldn't take place in the same film that introduces Kraven. They need to establish a history between him and Spider-Man in order for that to work.

A gang war related plot could be a really good way to start the story. It has the potential to include Hammerhead, Tombstone, Kingpin, all those guys. And it could pave the way for a Daredevil Cameo too

That would be cool.

 

[Spider-Ock]

Yeah, that story arc shouldn't take place in the same film that introduces Kraven. They need to establish a history between him and Spider-Man in order for that to work.



That would be cool.

I want Spidey to be more of a street-level hero in the first movie. Plus, his quips on Kingpin and Hammerhead can be downright hilarious .

 

[Morbius]

I'd love to see Scorpion in a live action movie. I just can't for the life of me figure out what he'd look like in a way that doesn't look ridiculous.

I want Spidey to be more of a street-level hero in the first movie. Plus, his quips on Kingpin and Hammerhead can be downright hilarious .

I loved his fat jokes in the Ultimate comics when he confronted Kingpin!

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I'd love to see Scorpion in a live action movie. I just can't for the life of me figure out what he'd look like in a way that doesn't look ridiculous.

I loved his fat jokes in the Ultimate comics when he confronted Kingpin!

They could make his origin inline with Tobey's Spider-Man and the 90s cartoon.
Not physically buff, the power adds up to his size a little, and the muscles become more defined.

 

[Spider2099]

I want Spidey to be more of a street-level hero in the first movie. Plus, his quips on Kingpin and Hammerhead can be downright hilarious .

I imagine he will start out as a street-level hero an build his way up after being in an Avengers movie.

 

[Spiderdevil]

Bane in TDKR had the same basic back story as the comics. He was born and raised in a hellish prison. He came to hate Batman by reputation. He went to Gotham and he broke him. There's even the Bane/Ra's Al Ghul/Talia connection in the comics. Check out a story called Batman Legacy. Nolan didn't reinvent the wheel with the character here.

He was still a pathetic villain
'Hates Batman by reputation' Yeah so much better

TSSM was Ultimate Spider-Man "Hey bro" back story, Eddie basically wants Peter dead because he loses a college course because of him. That is not a great motive. TSSM like the 90's cartoon and Spider-Man 3 did one thing better than the comics; it gave Peter and Eddie an actual connection before becoming enemies. They were not total strangers who never met. Other than that it was far from being a great motive for a murderous feud.

How hard is to write a proper back story? Especially with Marvel's brain trust involved

Kidnapping MJ and making Spidey run through endless sewers to find her? Very deep.

I meant the Persona not the story, the 'us' persona, with more shades of evil ofcourse.
'Spider-man, come out and play''
'My, my, my, said the spider to the smaller spider'

Mysterio, Kraven, Sandman, Vulture, Scorpion, Kingpin.....and many more non scientist/Goblin villains. We don't need to see a badly written one dimensional character just because they've done the Goblins and mad scientist villains several times.

Sandman and Scorpion are even more one-dimensional,plus sandman's been done
Mysterio and Vulture can't carry a movie on their own

1. These are just examples of how prominent and strong these villains are. I was not listing them as must have plot points in the movies. The Joker didn't need to cripple Batgirl or kill Robin to be awesome in TDK did he.

1.You answered your own problem,you don't need a villain to be given a iconic death to be awesome, a good script will do, same can be done with venom

It's not a debate about who is the ultimate Spider-Man villain, it's a debate about who is a weak Spider-Man villain and Venom is weak. What I was saying is it's ridiculous that he gets ranked along side Goblin and Ock when he doesn't deserve it for the aforementioned reasons.

Weak or not is upto the writing and script
Bane, seemed weak in TDKR when he cried like a love-sick puppy, and The Winter Soldier was a complete badass with just 2-3 lines spoken

Yes it is. Rewriting his motives, and then rewriting him into a credible villain who isn't just a lame stalker (or someone who plays anti-hero) is giving the character a whole new facelift.

And its the first time its being done in Superhero movies?
Hello! Doc-Ock, Obadiah Stane

Tsk tsk the trolls colors are starting to show. Doc Ock has never tried to finish a Science experiment at any cost? You have read Doc Ock comics right? The only part you're right about is the arms influencing him to do it, but that didn't completely rewrite the character. That was just a substitute for radiation brain damage. The character was still very much Doc Ock like: http://molinaock.blogspot.ie/

Dude they COMPLETELY changed Doc-Ock, his personality (and I am not even talking about Tritium or a science experiment) he was a sympathetic villain who is good at heart but is controlled by arms while in the comics he is almost always pure evil, now that's a complete face-lift! He was basically Lizard 2.0! And everybody loves that movie! The point here is Free Will

So can be Venom with a substitute AND similar but credible motives, TSSM changed his motives into something plausible and still he was faithful to the comics, it wasn't a facelift and he didn't come of as a lame stalker

He will anyways be used in the 2nd or 3rd movie when Spider-man has nabbed scores of Bad guys and his identity becomes extremely important
Just watch the school fight sequence in TSSM , the tension is palpable! I would almost kill to see something like that on the big screen

So Venom boils down to
1.Introduce Eddy Brock properly and give him a valid reason to hate Peter Parker AND Spider-man
2.Give him assess to the symbiote in a plausible way
3.Nab the 'us' and 'evil prankster' persona
4.Have him make Spider-man's life a living with Identity and loved ones being the thing at stake
5.Add layers to him by showing how much he needs the symbiote

As long as the movie Venom ticks all those 4 points, he is faithful to the source

We have had enough of the city/world is in danger in not just every Spider-man movie but CBMs in general, its time we had a movie with a personal agenda

 

[Morbius]

Also, regarding the arms controlling Doc Ock, it did rewrite his character. The Ock I know from the comics, and i've read a great many since issue 1 of TAS, was an autonomous scientist - a man of free will who followed his own pursuits. Molina's Ock was a prisoner of mechanical arms with artificial intelligence. They made his decisions for him. That's literally a personality change. I can't really be clearer than that. It's not my opinion here.

Venom can of course be rewritten to suit a movie in a way that makes him interesting. That's just how movies work - things get rewritten to suit that medium. Some things work in the comics that don't necessarily work in film and vice versa, as has already been said in this thread

 

[The Joker]

He was still a pathetic villain
'Hates Batman by reputation' Yeah so much better

How is that pathetic? The League of Shadows took him in, trained him, and then he heard that Batman totally destroyed their organization.

How hard is to write a proper back story? Especially with Marvel's brain trust involved

I never disputed they could write a proper back story. My point was if they need to rewrite his back story, and the character in general, it's basically a brand new character. So what is the point? A villain being worthy of a movie shouldn't need to be rewritten so much like that. That's what makes them worthy in the first place; they're great enough characters to warrant it.

I meant the Persona not the story, the 'us' persona, with more shades of evil ofcourse.
'Spider-man, come out and play''
'My, my, my, said the spider to the smaller spider'

Ok.

Sandman and Scorpion are even more one-dimensional,plus sandman's been done
Mysterio and Vulture can't carry a movie on their own

How are Sandman and Scorpion one dimensional? I wasn't talking about them carrying a movie on their own. There is only maybe 4 villains at a push that Spidey has who are strong enough to tick the right boxes to carry a movie solo. They have to be strong enough characters characterization wise, and they have to be able to deliver visually stunning action scenes.

Most Spidey villains fail on one of those fronts. Like Kraven is an awesome character but a jungle man with a spear isn't going to blow us away in the fight scene department. Vulture is an old man on bird wings. I can't see him delivering spectacular action by himself either.

Gobby, Ock, Lizard, and maybe Mysterio have the strength to be the solo villains leading the story, and deliver in the action and fights department.

1.You answered your own problem,you don't need a villain to be given a iconic death to be awesome, a good script will do, same can be done with venom

That wasn't an answer to my problem. I was talking about how Venom has done nothing to warrant being an A-list villain. I wasn't talking about needing to put the deaths baddies have caused into movies. That was your mis-interpretation.

Weak or not is upto the writing and script
Bane, seemed weak in TDKR when he cried like a love-sick puppy, and The Winter Soldier was a complete badass with just 2-3 lines spoken

Oh really are you going to call Bane weak because he shed a single tear in the movie? I mean seriously that is the most childish criticism.

I'll tell you this, Bane will be more remembered, and for the right reasons, by the general audience than The Winter Soldier character ever will be.

And its the first time its being done in Superhero movies?
Hello! Doc-Ock, Obadiah Stane

I went over Doc Ock with another poster. Feel free to address anything I said on that score if you want to argue the point. I've plenty of comic book evidence here to back me up.

As for Obadiah Stane, Iron Man has a LOUSY rogues gallery. All comic book fans know that. They had to rewrite his villains for movie treatment.

So can be Venom with a substitute AND similar but credible motives, TSSM changed his motives into something plausible and still he was faithful to the comics, it wasn't a facelift and he didn't come of as a lame stalker

You keep saying TSSM (a show I adore btw) gave him credible motives. I don't think it did. Eddie lost out on going to college, and that was his basis for hating Peter and wanting to kill him. I think that is pathetic. Overall Brock was handled better in that show than the comics ever did with him. But still not good. But then even the great TSSM can't be expected to make crap shine.

I said this to another poster; Think of the best hero vs villain/vengeance feuds in comic book lore, or fiction in general. They always are built on a great back story. A solid motivation. Because that's what makes them credible and great. You're sold on this feud because it's all running off a great premise. Lets look at an example close to home; the Harry Green Goblin vengeance feud with Spidey. He wants Peter dead because he thinks he killed his father. Very easy to buy Harry's thirst for revenge based on a motive like that.

 

[Morbius]

My point was if they need to rewrite his back story, and the character in general, it's basically a brand new character.

It's irrelevant. Venom is 'black spiderman with teeth' to the general audience. Give him a cool backstory, make him hate spiderman, call him Eddie Brock and slap on a symbiote and you have Venom. As long as he's interesting and fun to watch on the big screen, nothing else matters. His comic counterpart is irrelevant to the general audience.

 

[LizardMan07]

I think SSM had Peter messing up a lot and looking like a really slimey person though, and that eventually sent Eddie over the edge

 

[Spider2099]

It's irrelevant. Venom is 'black spiderman with teeth' to the general audience. Give him a cool backstory, make him hate spiderman, call him Eddie Brock and slap on a symbiote and you have Venom. As long as he's interesting and fun to watch on the big screen, nothing else matters. His comic counterpart is irrelevant to the general audience.

I would hope that Marvel can give him a cool backstory. They are pretty good with taking C list characters from the comics and turning them into gold.

 

[LizardMan07]

If they can give venom some really good motivations and a backstory that's engaging to the audience, I don't see why venom is such a bad idea

 

[The Joker]

It's irrelevant. Venom is 'black spiderman with teeth' to the general audience. Give him a cool backstory, make him hate spiderman, call him Eddie Brock and slap on a symbiote and you have Venom. As long as he's interesting on screen, nothing else matters.

It's not irrelevant.

If they had never done Green Goblin before would you think it's ok to make Quentin Beck the Goblin just because audiences wouldn't be any the wiser about who the Goblin is supposed to really be? I bet that was the kind of mentality behind the Catwoman movie. Catwoman is a sexy woman in a cat suit to audiences. It will work.

 

[LizardMan07]

There's a positive rewrite and a negative rewrite

Golbin is a good character so you should leave his origin alone and not kill him off within 2 minutes of an unnamed sequel

Venom is a bad character so on film it's ok to change his origin up

apples and organges

 

[Morbius]

If they can give venom some really good motivations and a backstory that's engaging to the audience, I don't see why venom is such a bad idea

Exactly.

 

[TheWallCrawler]

I don't understand what's so wrong with adapting Venom just because he might've been lame in the comics. Regardless of how it played out in the source material, Venom's story has a very usable frame work that could be used for an expertly written story in a movie. Besides, with most of the Spider-man villains you have to either rewrite them or add a lot more to them versus what they originally were. The deeper Spidey villains with masterfully written backstories and grand plots are much more rare than the ones with serviceable backstories and cool fights

 

[LizardMan07]

If some guy handed me a really cool venom script right now that was A+ in quality, I wouldn't throw it back in his face because it's not comic accurate

 

[Morbius]

If they had never done Green Goblin before would you think it's ok to make Quentin Beck the Goblin just because audiences wouldn't be any the wiser about who the Goblin is supposed to really be?

That's hyperbole, but back to reality, of course you can change a character to suit a movie. It's just how it is in the movie industry.

I bet that was the kind of mentality behind the Catwoman movie. Catwoman is a sexy woman in a cat suit to audiences. It will work.

Except that's an exaggerated example. You rewrite a character's origins and motivations to suit a movie - didn't they rewrite Doc Ock to be a puppet controlled by mechanical arms in Spiderman2? Indeed! And it doesn't matter! Why? It's a scientist with 8 arms who hates Spiderman.

 

[The Joker]

That's hyperbole, but back to reality, of course you can change a character to suit a movie. It's just how it is in the movie industry.

How is it hyperbole? You can't just say that and not explain why. Yeah you can change a character into anything you want in the movie industry. Nobody said you can't. That doesn't make it right or good.

Back to reality? You really are taking this hard today aren't you. Is it the end of the TASM franchise that's stinging?

Except that's an exaggerated example. You rewrite a character's origins and motivations to suit a movie - didn't they rewrite Doc Ock to be a puppet controlled by mechanical arms in Spiderman2? Indeed! And it doesn't matter! Why? It's a scientist with 8 arms who hates Spiderman.

How is that an exaggerated example? If you're going to criticize give reasons why.

Doc Ock was not rewritten. Some changes made yes, but the character was not rewritten into something totally different. You keep using that as a crutch for your argument and it doesn't work.

 

[Morbius]

Is it the end of the TASM franchise that's stinging?

Huh? I'm glad they're over, they were headed nowhere.
I liked TASM despite it being flawed and didn't like TASM2. I'm ecstatic that we finally have a promising future with an MCU film. You sure are mad today.

Doc Ock was not rewritten.

That is literally what happened in SM2.

 

[Spiderdevil]

How is that pathetic? The League of Shadows took him in, trained him, and then he heard that Batman totally destroyed their organization.

Specifically The look, the actor, the accent, the love-sick-puppy ending and his motive (lets take control of Gotham and starve it for 3 months before blowing a nuclear weapon in a suicide mission..instead of you know..blowing it up immediately) and don't give some Nolan philosophical ***** about losing hope or something, I don't buy that at all!

I never disputed they could write a proper back story. My point was if they need to rewrite his back story, and the character in general, it's basically a brand new character. So what is the point? A villain being worthy of a movie shouldn't need to be rewritten so much like that. That's what makes them worthy in the first place; they're great enough characters to warrant it.

Its not 'basically a brand new character', Villains are rewritten all the time, especially in Marvel movies, like I said about Doc-Ock, they took his free-will and made him sympathetic instead of pure-evil
And no they are not enough great villains who haven't been already used, now don't tell me Shocker, Sandman, Vulture or Scorpion are better than Venom

How are Sandman and Scorpion one dimensional? I wasn't talking about them carrying a movie on their own. There is only maybe 4 villains at a push that Spidey has who are strong enough to tick the right boxes to carry a movie solo. They have to be strong enough characters characterization wise, and they have to be able to deliver visually stunning action scenes.

There is very little in their back story to make them interesting, and we don't want a rewrite to turn an B list character into an A list (it felt flat on its face when they tried to make Sandman or Electro interesting)
Only times likes of Shocker, Sandman, Scorpion or Rhino should be used is as a Intro-Villain or as a Side-kick to a bigger villain (Kingpin) or a team-up (sinister six)

Most Spidey villains fail on one of those fronts. Like Kraven is an awesome character but a jungle man with a spear isn't going to blow us away in the fight scene department. Vulture is an old man on bird wings. I can't see him delivering spectacular action by himself either.

Exactly! And Venom is a lot more interesting than those stale villains (Sandman, Vulture, Shocker, Rhino, Electro or Scorpion) AND has the potential to be visually stunning

That wasn't an answer to my problem. I was talking about how Venom has done nothing to warrant being an A-list villain. I wasn't talking about needing to put the deaths baddies have caused into movies. That was your mis-interpretation.

No one ranks him above Goblin or Doc-Ock and which Villain is above him apart from those two?
He is easily among top 5 spider-man villains if not top 3

Oh really are you going to call Bane weak because he shed a single tear in the movie? I mean seriously that is the most childish criticism.

No its not, it changed his character from a brutal mastermind to someone who is a love-sick side-kick, it completely destroyed him

I'll tell you this, Bane will be more remembered, and for the right reasons, by the general audience than The Winter Soldier character ever will be.

As far as the two movies are concerened, No

You keep saying TSSM (a show I adore btw) gave him credible motives. I don't think it did. Eddie lost out on going to college, and that was his basis for hating Peter and wanting to kill him. I think that is pathetic.

Most would disagree but anyway..
But was the Venom given a face-lift in TSSM?

I said this to another poster; Think of the best hero vs villain/vengeance feuds in comic book lore, or fiction in general. They always are built on a great back story. A solid motivation. Because that's what makes them credible and great. You're sold on this feud because it's all running off a great premise. Lets look at an example close to home; the Harry Green Goblin vengeance feud with Spidey. He wants Peter dead because he thinks he killed his father. Very easy to buy Harry's thirst for revenge based on a motive like that.

And Goblin has been done three times and Doc Ock too, we need to look beyond them.
We are not discussing Comic Books here but what Villain we can use in a movie, Goblin and Doc-Ock are completely out the equation. Its between likes of Kraven, Venom, Kingpin, etc

 

[The Joker]

Huh? I'm glad they're over, they were headed nowhere.
I liked TASM despite it being flawed and didn't like TASM2. I'm ecstatic that we finally have a promising future with an MCU film. You sure are mad today.

Given how you were a staunch defender of those movies I thought you'd have been really irked. You used to always argue with me and the others over it back in the day. Glad you've finally seen the light.

Mad? No. But then I would have cause to be when I'm falsely accused of not understanding film, or a valid article I posted is called a shameless plug.

That is literally what happened in SM2.

Except it literally isn't. Since you're either too ignorant or too stubborn to read the article then I'll just post some of the proof here:

- Doc Ock being in love before he became Ock:

- Doc Ock's arms attacking on their own:

- Doc Ock having a warehouse lair:

- Kidnapping Peter's gf in order to force Spidey to meet him

- Doc Ock doing a noble deed helping save lives of innocents

I haven't gone into all the other little Ock-isms like these:

There's plenty more in that link if you ever stop being stubborn and read it.

 

[Morbius]

You're just finding similarities. Those are irrelevant. He was still rewritten to suit SM2. Just as Venom can be. Glad you remembered me, i'm a swell guy

 

[Spider-Ock]

I am sorry but Doc Ock was done to perfection in SM2. I am a major fan of the comics and he is pretty comic-accurate.