Homecoming Who should reboot villain be? (Poll Version)

[The Infernal]

But how do make a guy who just robs banks and does little else compelling? Really robbing banks is the most generic and unimaginative thing you can have a villain do, its not scary, its not sympathetic, its literally the most lazy thing you can do with a villain.

Again, how do have rising action that leads an exciting, when the villain doesn't have a plan or series of actions that lead to building action and an exciting climax? Shocker robbing banks through out the film doesn't fit in with a 3 act story with exciting climax, it pretty anti climatic if the end of the movie is just Spidey foiling a bank robbery, that seems more like a filler TV episode then a movie.

Frankly I think fans make Shocker into a greater character then he actually is the comics, he doesn't have a really compelling personality or back story or anything that makes stand out from the crowd. With the event of cyber crime, bank robbery has been in decline, Shocker's MO is no longer relevant. Shocker could make more money on his laptop then he could robbing banks.

The lazy super villain who robs bank for a quick buck is a lazy, outdated cliche that needs to be retired.

Who said Shocker would just be running around robbing banks like he was in previous acts of the film? Does he have no character arc, is there no progression?

Regardless of what Shocker could be doing whether it be hunting down Spider-man for foiling his past robberies or planning a heist at Oscorp for tech or whatever the main way to make him compelling is the same way you make any character compelling. You write a good character, not just action set pieces. Shocker needn't be some sympathetic villain that's tied to Peter Parker like people have seen for just about every movie so far.

As for bank robberies no longer being relevant. It would only be irrelevant if they didn't happen at all. It's a comic book adventure about a hero who swings around the streets of New York looking to stop crime. It's what Spider-man does.

 

[Spider-Cross]

While we are on debate and waiting for Marvel and Sony to decide who the villains for the upcoming Marvel Cinematic Spider-Man film, I believe it's quite clear on who they should choose for the films villains because this film is set in a highly potential comic book film franchise and we would want this film to have a strong plot as Captain America Civil War and one of the few things movie makers need to make the plot of a movie really bold besides making it give out government responses over previous events from previous films is by including the best kinds of villains that would make it real interesting and these are the two best villains for Marvel to start out with;

Hobgoblin (alias Rodrick Kingsley);

who will act as the film's primary antagonist threatening Norman Osborn and his family over a grudge he holds against him who also has no bounderies and kills for money


and

Scorpion (alias Mac Gargan);

who will act as a hero turned villain over losing control over his mutation and become the secondary antagonist and team up with the Hobgoblin against Spider-Man

the other fact that Hobgoblin and Scorpion should act as the villains for this first film is because they were not introduced into the live cinematic films before so please if anyone agrees with me please comment now

 

[Jordacar]

Wow, didn't know Mysterio would rank 1st when I cast my vote. I picked him with a mind towards the next solo movie being as stand-alone as possible.

 

[Arach Knight]

Kraven is the only Spidey rogue that hasn't already appeared on film and is also strong enough to carry a film. Spider-Man is a great superhero, and my favorite, but his rogues gallery is iffy aside from Kraven, Goblin, Ock and the Lizard. Mysterio has a boring origin and motivation. Rhino is a flat character. Scorpion almost works on a pathos level, but not sure he could carry an entire film.

 

[The Overlord]

Who said Shocker would just be running around robbing banks like he was in previous acts of the film? Does he have no character arc, is there no progression?

Then what is the progression, what is the story arc, what is the pay off with him? If you are lobbying for him to be the Big Bad of the film, you might want to suggest some ideas on how that work. Otherwise, I stand by my accretion he works better as a henchman in a film.

Regardless of what Shocker could be doing whether it be hunting down Spider-man for foiling his past robberies or planning a heist at Oscorp for tech or whatever the main way to make him compelling is the same way you make any character compelling. You write a good character, not just action set pieces. Shocker needn't be some sympathetic villain that's tied to Peter Parker like people have seen for just about every movie so far.

He doesn't need to be sympathetic or tied to Spidey directly, but a petty thief is not compelling enough to carry a film. A petty thief is neither sympathetic or scary.

As for bank robberies no longer being relevant. It would only be irrelevant if they didn't happen at all. It's a comic book adventure about a hero who swings around the streets of New York looking to stop crime. It's what Spider-man does.

But surely there are more interesting crimes for Spidey to foil than bank robbery? The money is the bank is insured, the money is likely marked and therefore useless, if the teller puts an ink pack in the bag, the money is going to useless right away. Plus a lot of people think bank owners are pretty unsympathetic nowadays. Bank robbery is not scary, menacing, sympathetic or compelling in any real way. What are the stakes in Spidey failing to stop Shocker from robbing a bank? What Shocker gets away with some marked, insured bills? Who cares? Unless Shocker is going to murder everyone in the bank while committing the robbery, there is no real stakes to it.

Not only is it not relevant, its not compelling. Really, only idiots rob banks nowadays. The smart criminals make their money through cyber crime.

 

[The Joker]

Kraven is the only Spidey rogue that hasn't already appeared on film and is alsoalsostrong enough to carry a film. Spider-Man is a great superhero, and my favorite, but his rogues gallery is iffy aside from Kraven, Goblin, Ock and the Lizard. Mysterio has a boring origin and motivation. Rhino is a flat character. Scorpion almost works on a pathos level, but not sure he could carry an entire film.

Kraven is strong enough to be the main villain, but he's not strong enough to be the solo villain because a jungle man with a spear cannot deliver spectacular visual action scenes that audiences expect from these movies.

You'd need at least another villain in there who can provide some really great visual action. The likes of Rhino, Scorpion, and Shocker are the kinds of lesser villains tailor made for that.

 

[The Overlord]

Kraven is strong enough to be the main villain, but he's not strong enough to be the solo villain because a jungle man with a spear cannot deliver spectacular visual action scenes that audiences expect from these movies.

You'd need at least another villain in there who can provide some really great visual action. The likes of Rhino, Scorpion, and Shocker are the kinds of lesser villains tailor made for that.

Well if they adapt Kraven's Last Hunt, they can have Kraven hunt Lizard (instead of Vernim), that way you can have two villains in the film and have it seem natural.

 

[The Infernal]

Then what is the progression, what is the story arc, what is the pay off with him? If you are lobbying for him to be the Big Bad of the film, you might want to suggest some ideas on how that work. Otherwise, I stand by my accretion he works better as a henchman in a film.

As I said earlier. I'm not actually pushing him as the main villain. I merely stated that hypothetically he could work easily enough with the right story. There are a couple of quick examples off the top of my head the type progression his story could have in the post you quote.

He doesn't need to be sympathetic or tied to Spidey directly, but a petty thief is not compelling enough to carry a film. A petty thief is neither sympathetic or scary.

I never found any of Spider-man's villains to be scary either and I don't know why you're hung up on sympathy since we've had five films already where they've played that angle.

But surely there are more interesting crimes for Spidey to foil than bank robbery? The money is the bank is insured, the money is likely marked and therefore useless, if the teller puts an ink pack in the bag, the money is going to useless right away. Plus a lot of people think bank owners are pretty unsympathetic nowadays. Bank robbery is not scary, menacing, sympathetic or compelling in any real way. What are the stakes in Spidey failing to stop Shocker from robbing a bank? What Shocker gets away with some marked, insured bills? Who cares? Unless Shocker is going to murder everyone in the bank while committing the robbery, there is no real stakes to it.

Not only is it not relevant, its not compelling. Really, only idiots rob banks nowadays. The smart criminals make their money through cyber crime.

I'm not really interested in this nonsensical 'victimless crime' perception you seem to have with bank robberies or your own personal hang up that they aren't compelling. Many would argue that Spider-man versus the angry nerd would be far less compelling. If you don't find bank robberies compelling then that's fine for you.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Cavill and Hemsworth didn't spend a year or more physically prepping themselves for their roles. Christian Bale did a weight gain even more extreme in less than a year after The Machinist for Batman Begins:

Cavill and Hemsworth both had large frames (and Cavill was already lifting prior to taking the Supes role), but it took time on both of their parts to build the requisite mass. Supposedly, the viewer can see Hemsworth already bulking up in Red Dawn, which was shot in 2009 and early 2010, but came out after Thor. I haven't seen it, but that makes sense to me. Everyone's body is different, but tacking on 20-30 lbs of muscle mass takes a couple of years at least, and that's doing the 2 1/2 hr-per-day, 5-6 days a week like Cavill.

Bale is an outlier to say the least. Those are drastic, and to be blunt-dangerous, changes. Most bodies don't have the genetics for those kinds of changes, and that's a good thing. I applaud Bale's devotion to his craft, but he could have debilitated himself by yo-yoing to such extremes.

 

[Arach Knight]

Kraven is strong enough to be the main villain, but he's not strong enough to be the solo villain because a jungle man with a spear cannot deliver spectacular visual action scenes that audiences expect from these movies.

If you think of Kraven as just a "jungle man with a spear", then you should consider reading Kraven's Last Hunt.

 

[The Joker]

Ackles already has the physique. I'd like to see him gain 25 lbs of muscle for the role.

I know he does. And even if he didn't, he wouldn't need a year to get it.

Well if they adapt Kraven's Last Hunt, they can have Kraven hunt Lizard (instead of Vernim), that way you can have two villains in the film and have it seem natural.

That works, and it makes a good animal theme, too. Hunter hunting an animal themed villain.

Cavill and Hemsworth both had large frames (and Cavill was already lifting prior to taking the Supes role), but it took time on both of their parts to build the requisite mass. Supposedly, the viewer can see Hemsworth already bulking up in Red Dawn, which was shot in 2009 and early 2010, but came out after Thor. I haven't seen it, but that makes sense to me. Everyone's body is different, but tacking on 20-30 lbs of muscle mass takes a couple of years at least, and that's doing the 2 1/2 hr-per-day, 5-6 days a week like Cavill.

Bale is an outlier to say the least. Those are drastic, and to be blunt-dangerous, changes. Most bodies don't have the genetics for those kinds of changes, and that's a good thing. I applaud Bale's devotion to his craft, but he could have debilitated himself by yo-yoing to such extremes.

Cavill and Hemsworth both had the same body frames Ackles has. Even if he didn't, it wouldn't take over a year to build up some impressive muscles mass if he did a regular workout regime, and ate a proper diet. In fact it can take as little as 15 weeks to show some impressive muscle gain. Guys can gain as much as 5 pounds of muscle in a month, and over 30 pounds in several months. Not to mention most of these actors take supplements, too.

The Christian Bale example was just to show that you can gain or lose extreme weight in a short space of time if necessary, and that is not even close to what Ackles would have to do. Actors do it all the time in mere months for roles. Mark Wahlberg, for example, gained 40 pounds of muscles for the movie Pain and Gain in a few months, and he did it by, and I quote:

“I was training five days a week. I’d start with benching, and then I’d do my squats and lunges, then I’d do a lot of old-school stuff. I’d literally do a row of machines at the Sports Club/LA. One set of every single machine all the way down the row. I’d leave the hotel at 4:30 in the morning—just as the nightclubs were letting out on South Beach.
I’d walk in the gym as the door opened at 5:00 AM every day. ”.

If you think of Kraven as just a "jungle man with a spear", then you should consider reading Kraven's Last Hunt.

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about his characterization. Didn't I just say to you that he could be the main villain? I'm talking about the fight scenes. That's all he is. He is not capable of delivering visually thrilling action because he is just a jungle man with a spear. You wouldn't get something as visually impressive as the Ock bank and train fights, or the Sandman subway fight, or Goblin aerial battles with someone like that. He's not the only Spidey villain who would fail on that front. The Chameleon couldn't do it either. Or Kingpin.

 

[Spiderdevil]

Whatever they end up doing, I hope its the decision of Marvel's brain trust (Feige and co) and not Sony's, because if Sony is working in isolation again...God help Spider-man

 

[Lantern Venom]

If you think of Kraven as just a "jungle man with a spear", then you should consider reading Kraven's Last Hunt.

I



Cavill and Hemsworth both had the same body frames Ackles has. Even if he didn't, it wouldn't take over a year to build up some impressive muscles mass if he did a regular workout regime, and ate a proper diet. In fact it can take as little as 15 weeks to show some impressive muscle gain. Guys can gain as much as 5 pounds of muscle in a month, and over 30 pounds in several months. Not to mention most of these actors take supplements, too.

The Christian Bale example was just to show that you can gain or lose extreme weight in a short space of time if necessary, and that is not even close to what Ackles would have to do. Actors do it all the time in mere months for roles. Mark Wahlberg, for example, gained 40 pounds of muscles for the movie Pain and Gain in a few months, and he did it by, and I quote:

.

If someone is gaining 30-40lbs of muscle in just a few months, the most likely scenario is either a) it's someone who has never worked out at all and their muscles are finally reaching their genetic potential or b) they're using more than just supplements. As much as I want to see a proper Eddie Brock body, I'd want the actor to do it naturally rather than juicing. That usually means time.

Whatever they end up doing, I hope its the decision of Marvel's brain trust (Feige and co) and not Sony's, because if Sony is working in isolation again...God help Spider-man

I think, perhaps to a fault, that Sony is going to give Marvel the lead on this one. It will make the studio money to let Marvel integrate Spidey into the MCU as seamlessly as possible. That means Sony getting out of the way.

 

[Morbius]

I wonder if this time it'll be a villain with a personal connection to Peter or not. Btw, what a weird night

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Wow, didn't know Mysterio would rank 1st when I cast my vote. I picked him with a mind towards the next solo movie being as stand-alone as possible.

I'm impressed.
If Stu was here, he'd love the results.

 

[Frodo]

I think Kraven as more then just a muscle man ,i.e. with enhanced animal dna ala the Puma character who was an old Spiderman villain, could present a physical threat in addition to being more interesting if the issue is compelling fight scenes. That said, Kraven would work better if he were more like the Predator. He's someone who studies ,hunts,tests, out smarts and taunts his prey and isn't about confronting them head on at first.

I think if he were more stealth , psychological, and cunning as opposed to guy Spiderman gets into fists fights with through out the film ala Sandman, Electro, Lizard etc, you can build up tension to when they do square off , Spiderman is taken off guard and discovers too late that Kraven has a physical edge over him and beats him badly ala Kraven's Last Hunt. Yeah, he's not a Ock or a Sandman or Electro but if you have a good villain who's compelling enough you don't need to have over the top larger then life fights to validate his existence in the story. The fights are secondary. What really matters is the quality of the villain . From there you can work around staging interesting action scenes.

 

[Spiderdevil]

I like the idea of Kraven coming to New York to hunt the Lizard, while Spidey wants to stop the Lizard and Save Dr Connors and Kraven starts to hunt Spidey too..it would make for an interesting triangular situation

Only problem is, Lizard's already been done, in an origin movie no less

 

[Spiderdevil]

We could go the Punisher route, Peter wanting to avenge the death of his uncle and swears too wipe New York free of gangs and the underworld, leading him to cross path with Kingpin and his henchmen Shocker. He learns the 'With Great Power..' message at the end of the movie rather than the beginning

Though the problem is that the story is more of a Daredevil/Punisher type than Spidey, could become too dark and the hunting-Uncle-Ben's killer was already done in some capacity in TASM

Say what you want about Sony's Spider-man, I think both the origin movies, despite some flaws, were extremely well done. Which makes the job even harder

It would have been so much easier to integrate Spidey into MCU post TASM, make his parents SHEILD double agents working to expose Oscorp and we would be done, but TASM2 made such a mess that they have wipe things clean again

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Did you know you kind of described DareDevil's movie?

 

[Spiderdevil]

Did you know you kind of described DareDevil's movie?

Yeah I know I did

Problem is we are out of options, Lizard, Goblin, DocOck, Sandman, Venom, Electro- All used

The obsessed sscientist route-Did that, the looser/nerd turned villain route- Done that, the sympathetic/misunderstood villain route-Did that, the revenge seeking route -Done

We are out of options

 

[Morbius]

There's also a danger that he'll (Shocker) be seen as a lesser Electro by the general audience.

 

[Oscorp]

Shocker is nothing like Electro in personality, nor in powers/abilities though. He uses vibration blasts which is nothing like electricity.

 

[Morbius]

Indeed as comic book readers we're certainly aware. It's the general audience I'm bring conscious of. The way I imagine Shocker's vibrations being represented in film travelling through objects/ buildings/ connecting with Spidey is too visually similar to how it was done with Electro's energy blasts in TASM2 in various scenes.

 

[Oscorp]

Indeed as comic book readers we're certainly aware. It's the general audience I'm bring conscious of.

But his vibro shots look nothing like electricity so I don't understand why people would mistake him like that.

 

[AnneFan]

Shocker is nothing like Electro in personality, nor in powers/abilities though. He uses vibration blasts which is nothing like electricity.

These are the sorts of villains I'd like to see for the time being. Shocker, Vulture, Mysterio, etc. I'd rather see other characters that haven't been used first. Not just for variety, but to show how deep Spider-Man is villain wise. And if a classic is to return at some point, let it be Doc Ock. We've had more than enough Goblin in the films.