Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[metalhead_dave]

-Batman: Sure, he was there, but it didn't feel like Batman to me. There was little to nothing iconic about his entire presentation throughout the entire film. He would just walk around in well lit areas, exposing himself for anybody to see(and no, I'm not talking about his junk). Where did all of his Ninja training go? He rarely used any iconic gadgets that most people associate themselves to Batman with. I didn't like how he was all buddy-buddy with the entire police force, and didn't really have to sneak around to visit Gordon. He basically had a badge, and the cops let him do as he pleased, and that annoyed the hell out of me.

Well, to be fair... he was able to sneak up on people and appear out of nowhere up to 5 to 6 times. (4 for Gordon, 3 for Dent, and 1 for the Joker). And he did do his trademark disapearing act a couple of times. So the ninja skills were there, and I guess those can count for iconic Batman moments as well.

With that said, here are some pics from the Dark Knight that were able to capture Bale's badass Batman face from Begins, despite the TDK cowl.

 

[Travesty]

Oh yeah, one thing I forgot to add: I HATE the gloves in TDK.

Stupid? Yes

Picky? Of course

Ridiculous? Thats me!


^is there anyway you could shrink those pics down a bit? I don't want to scroll from left to right due to the size. Thanks

 

[Travesty]

Whoops: Double post

 

[metalhead_dave]

I don't know how to. I grabbed them from the Christian Bale/Bruce Wayne thread in the TDK forum.

 

[RockyBatboa]

I do prefer "Begins" over "DK".

As a film, i thought Begins focused more on Wayne AND Batman, had a tigther storyline, had a more elaborate and engaging supporting cast (heck, in retrospect, even Holmes wasnt that bad-and look , after Gylenhal, many fans admitted they would have preferred Holmes back, if for no other reason than continuity)....Gotham City, to me, appeared more dynamic and dangerously urban in "Begins", particularly scenes in the 'Narrows'.

The villians, Ras and Crane, i think were more belivable. As fine as Roberts was in "DK", noone can deny Wilkinson came off superior as the mobster in "Begins".

I also think "Begins" was more EPIC, and also had better range and versatility: the origin worked, the flashbacks worked, the horror elements worked (Crane seeing Batman change into a slimy Bat-creature is STILL wonderous to behold), the tension worked, the scenes w/ Bale and Caine were very emotionalally stong, even the romance worked between Bale and Holmes....

Overall, BB is just a finer film.

Hoever, i found "DK" to be more elaborate and entertaining. Some spots in BB are a little dry, but the DK , despite being 20 minutes longer, never gets borring.

But a good portion of that has to do w/ Ledger's amazing Joker performance.

I also think DK was slightly over-rated. It was , probably, the best film of '08, but if you look at imdb, they have it as ranked at 5 all time-that's just ridiculous. The film has nothing on modern-deay classics, "Empire Strikes Back", or "Raiders...Ark".

I think BB is comparable to those though.

 

[returntovoid]

Both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are great films (That had their share of flaws) but I liked Batman Begins more IMHO.

 

[MacLeod]

I wasn't crazy about either one for a Batman movie but as far as movies are concerned Begins was far better than TDK for me. I never, not once, got the feeling like Batman was even part of TDK, it could have been a normal crime drama without a masked vigilante and the movie would have been the same for me. Begins had a better story line, a much better costume (and even that I don't like so you can imagine my distaste for the TDK one), and it moved along at a decent pace. While I was watching TDK I actually wanted it to end many times which is sad for me because I'm a HUGE Batman fan. The hype that TDK received is lost on me, I can appreciate how much effort was put into it and certain parts were done well but, as a whole I was actually rather dissapointed. When I left Begins I thought there were things that should have been done differently but all-in-all it was a good movie, when I left TDK I actually thought that I wished it was an hour shorter and that Batman were in it as a main character instead of the villian (which I did't like either) and Harvey, "White Knight" Dent. I know I'm in the minority here but oh well.

 

[Panthro]

I don't have a preference between BB & TDK. I like both.

I don't see the problem with Batman falling for Joker's interrogation room trick, which some see as blasphemy. It's still the early days of Batman and it's his first time matching wits against the Joker. He went into that interrogation thinking he could break the Joker the same way he broke so many other regular thugs, thinking he could just punch away at Joker until he cracked, and paid the price for underestimating him. It's about showing his inexperience as a crimefighter at that point in the story. Is it really so bad that even Batman couldn't figure Joker out right away? (to the extent that you can figure out the Joker)

 

[brinomite]

^yea i agree due to the fact that the Joker for all intents and purposes is enigmatic (no pun) in every aspect of his character (i.e. genesis, motivation, manipulation, etc). But, I have to respectfully say that I enjoy Begins much more now simply because it's part of something larger now (in so far as storytelling). Honestly, years ago when i saw the trailer/commercial for BB, i was like oh **** here goes another ****** batman flick...and how awfully wrong i was. Great film i will cherish it forever. anyone know when itll be on itunes????

 

[Rincewind]

I love both BB and TDK and I can't really tell which one I find better. There are aspects of BB that I like more (for example, Batman's character and his use in the story) and vice versa (TDK pwns BB as far as villains go thanks to the Joker), but as a whole, I think that both movies are (equally) awesome.
I also think that BB is a bit underrated as a whole. I don't think that it's worse than TDK, but it didn't get even half as much praise.

 

[Panthro]

On the subject of Gotham looking "cleaner" in TDK than it did in BB, perhaps that was intentional? To show that Gotham was "healing" from the efforts of Batman & Harvey Dent.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

While I like both films, I prefer Begins a bit more. I just like how they used a lot of older architecture, like Wayne Manor, the courthouse, the police station felt old, the streets, Arkham, Wayne Tower. TDK started off strong with the bank robbery in an older looking bank, but from there everything felt really clean and new. Not like the Gotham in the first film.

BB's Gotham feels like it has a massive sense of history--a history they really lay out for us to show what's at stake, what kind of legacy the Wayne family has left so far, etc.

I also missed the nods to Thomas Wayne and Bruce's past. BB was very Batman-centric, while TDK was a bit all over the place. I miss the little flashbacks Bruce had to his youth, his training and what not. Woulda been nice to just settle down a bit and sink into Bruce's head.

That being said, I still find TDK very compelling and entertaining.

 

[Stay_Puft]

Actually I find Begins to be a massively better movie than the Dark Knight. I thoroughly enjoy origin story's and Batman being my favorite superhero growing up (seriously, I had every square inch of my room in 3rd and 4th grade covered in Bat memorabilia) helps sway that opinion in Begin's favor. I also enjoyed the background music during the train scene with Bruce as a child talking to his father and at the end of the film when he's talking to Rachel. I also enjoyed and am more attracted to Katie Holmes (she just did a much better job IMO than Maggie, and I'm not too thrilled with that girls looks either). Although The Dark Knight features my two favorite villains, that's not enough to save it as Begins features my 3rd and 4th favorite villains (which is just coincidence, I've favored them long before the movies were made). It's almost like Nolan and myself think alike when it comes to The Bat

so yea, Begins stomps The Dark Knight

 

[Stay_Puft]

gotta add I prefer the Begins suit to the TDK suit as well, plus the first half of the film is just brilliantly structured, everything from Bruce's training to the scene with Bruce as child in the police station with Gordon to the end scene with the two of them on the rooftop, you can truely see how far Bruce has come since the incident

the movie is pretty much a Bat fan's dream come true

 

[brinomite]

the movie is pretty much a Bat fan's dream come true

Well, aren't they both? (the films i mean)

 

[brinomite]

Forgot to add in regards to the suit in TDK vs BB, in particular the scene when Batman is on top of the roof in China and assembling the plastic explosive gun, yea that looked badass.

 

[MacLeod]

Well, aren't they both? (the films i mean)

Not even close and I'm a huge Batman fan. I was actually dissapointed with TDK and wanted a lot more from Begins. I'm in the minority but I definitely didn't like TDK as Batman movie.

 

[Batman137]

I am watching it right now. And i have to say, it is absolutely incredible. Begins was supposed to be a storytelling movie. And TDK was a action movie. Now if a Third was made with those mixed components, the third would probably be my favorite

 

[MacLeod]

I am watching it right now. And i have to say, it is absolutely incredible. Begins was supposed to be a storytelling movie. And TDK was a action movie. Now if a Third was made with those mixed components, the third would probably be my favorite

TDK was an action movie? I was bored out of my mind waiting it to be over many times throughout the film which is sad because I'm a huge Batman fan. Batman was barely in it and when he was I almost wished he wasn't because his suit was horrible and his voice was unbelievably annoying. The film was a drama with the Joker and Harvey Dent, Batman was almost not needed, this could have been a regular crime drama without a superhero. I'll agree with the fact that Begins was more of a storytelling movie but TDK was something that I cannot connect with at any level. I saw it more than once just to see if I was missing something and I still don't like it. I know I'm one of the few but it bored me for most of the film.

 

[Grommers]

Okay a couple things, I just read the whole thread..


Pointless scenes in BB?...NONE why? Because this was a character driven movie, it wasn't driven from its plot. Every little scene, allowed you to look more at the psyche of a character, thats what they were aiming for..so there was no pointless scenes, Thomas was telling Bruce about the monorail to show that his father still cared about the city, you couldn't get that if you had just heard about it, you also find out that he isn't really business oriented, he doesn't do things for the money but for really trying to help human society as a whole.


the joke about the coat? I thought it was funny, i enjoyed it, didn't kill the scene.


TDK...this is what the 2nd year batman has been batman, has never dealt with a criminal like the joker, and you expect him to know how to deal with him? are you dense? are you ******ed? batman is just realizing now that he is changing things...forever, and by the end he sees what he has to do to protect his city. I really can't believe people expect batman to know how to do everything right from the get-go, he knows how to deal with thugs, the mob, etc he knows there goals, how to abuse them, how they think, well, when you dont know someones goals, how everything you were taught on how to abuse someone doesn't work, what the **** are you supposed to think, but by the end you really see him starting to understand that the jokers purpose is to inspire chaos, while batman is trying to inspire justice and hope.


BB really developed batman a lot, why would I want to see the same thing twice? I was happy TDK wasn't batman oriented and everything was batman, the first scene where the guy talks about you have more of a chance of winning the power ball, and the police searching for him, really lets me know that his presence is felt, same with the press conferences, I don't need to see him kicking ass over and over, dominating everything, because he's gotten pretty perfect at beating up common criminals.

I wanna see how the big criminals are gonna try and take him down!

All in all, I really consider these two movies the same, with the only exception being Gotham being to clean in TDK and BB being a little over the top, but all that aside, to me they go hand in hand with each other and compliment each other very nicely, and i'm glad thats the direction they took.

 

[TheScarecrow]

TDK was an action movie? I was bored out of my mind waiting it to be over many times throughout the film which is sad because I'm a huge Batman fan. Batman was barely in it and when he was I almost wished he wasn't because his suit was horrible and his voice was unbelievably annoying. The film was a drama with the Joker and Harvey Dent, Batman was almost not needed, this could have been a regular crime drama without a superhero. I'll agree with the fact that Begins was more of a storytelling movie but TDK was something that I cannot connect with at any level. I saw it more than once just to see if I was missing something and I still don't like it. I know I'm one of the few but it bored me for most of the film.

Watch the movie again, and instead view all of the other characters as metaphors for who Batman is and what he's facing. The Joker represents the overall threat Batman faces (notice that he survives and his story is just left hanging - it's because it's not over for Batman - it's a perpetual battle - "I think you and I are destined to do this forever"). Harvey represents Batman's hope (I think this one was made pretty clear throughout the film) and Rachel represents his future. The final scene links all of the other characters in as well. Notice how the conclusions to the other character's subplots all form a nice little "summary" at the end and all three are conclusions of Batman's own journey?

So TDK was about Batman however he was not the true protagonist of the movie. You're right in saying Dent and Joker were the focus (well, somewhat...neither has more screentime than Bruce/Batman). Nolan himself even said that Dent was the protagonist of the story.

The point of TDK is that Bruce doesn't know what he wants or who he truly is so he just wanders around the movie, truly unsure of what to do and almost unable to be definite in his decisions and actions. He never realised what being Batman meant in Begins and is only just coming to realise that isn't a matter of cleaning up the streets and hanging up the cowl and there's many times where you don't think he's going to make the "right choice".

In the end, he does. The reasons why are not dealt with through him, but through the other characters.

Anyway:
Dent = Bruce's hope and the finite end to his life as Batman.
Rachel = Bruce's future ("one chance for a normal life").
The Joker = The threat Bruce faces, total anarchy and unbeatable forces of evil.
Gordon = tireless crusade of Batman as he tries to the right thing, but it never happens.
Lucius = Batman's morals - taking a hit and doing something which goes against your normal code in order to achieve some level of goodness.
Alfred = Batman's faithfulness and loyalty - like Bruce, Alfred had to do something dishonest - not out of complete necessity, but because he didn't want to cause unnecessary pain.

 

[The Joker]

Great post, Scarecrow

 

[MacLeod]

Watch the movie again, and instead view all of the other characters as metaphors for who Batman is and what he's facing. The Joker represents the overall threat Batman faces (notice that he survives and his story is just left hanging - it's because it's not over for Batman - it's a perpetual battle - "I think you and I are destined to do this forever"). Harvey represents Batman's hope (I think this one was made pretty clear throughout the film) and Rachel represents his future. The final scene links all of the other characters in as well. Notice how the conclusions to the other character's subplots all form a nice little "summary" at the end and all three are conclusions of Batman's own journey?

So TDK was about Batman however he was not the true protagonist of the movie. You're right in saying Dent and Joker were the focus (well, somewhat...neither has more screentime than Bruce/Batman). Nolan himself even said that Dent was the protagonist of the story.

The point of TDK is that Bruce doesn't know what he wants or who he truly is so he just wanders around the movie, truly unsure of what to do and almost unable to be definite in his decisions and actions. He never realised what being Batman meant in Begins and is only just coming to realise that isn't a matter of cleaning up the streets and hanging up the cowl and there's many times where you don't think he's going to make the "right choice".

In the end, he does. The reasons why are not dealt with through him, but through the other characters.

Anyway:
Dent = Bruce's hope and the finite end to his life as Batman.
Rachel = Bruce's future ("one chance for a normal life").
The Joker = The threat Bruce faces, total anarchy and unbeatable forces of evil.
Gordon = tireless crusade of Batman as he tries to the right thing, but it never happens.
Lucius = Batman's morals - taking a hit and doing something which goes against your normal code in order to achieve some level of goodness.
Alfred = Batman's faithfulness and loyalty - like Bruce, Alfred had to do something dishonest - not out of complete necessity, but because he didn't want to cause unnecessary pain.

As insightful as that was, I knew and saw all of that already. Everything you mentioned, as well thought out as you presented it, was apparent to me the first time I watched it. I can appreciate the effort put into trying to make all those connections but that still doesn't make the movie good for me even to this day. I don't have 2 hours to give to something I've already seen more than five times just to hope that I can start to enjoy it more. I know what Nolan was trying to do, I know what the characters meant to the story and each other but it still didn't do anything to me as a movie. Other than the fiasco that was Batman and Robin, I would prefer to watch any of the other four Batman movies over TDK. I know everyone reading this is a Batman fan and shocked over what I'm saying but being a huge Batman fan myself, one who clearly understands all the metaphors and literary plot elements, I was very, very bored throughout the entire movie and not impressed over anything.

 

[Angeloz]

Watch the movie again, and instead view all of the other characters as metaphors for who Batman is and what he's facing. The Joker represents the overall threat Batman faces (notice that he survives and his story is just left hanging - it's because it's not over for Batman - it's a perpetual battle - "I think you and I are destined to do this forever"). Harvey represents Batman's hope (I think this one was made pretty clear throughout the film) and Rachel represents his future. The final scene links all of the other characters in as well. Notice how the conclusions to the other character's subplots all form a nice little "summary" at the end and all three are conclusions of Batman's own journey?

So TDK was about Batman however he was not the true protagonist of the movie. You're right in saying Dent and Joker were the focus (well, somewhat...neither has more screentime than Bruce/Batman). Nolan himself even said that Dent was the protagonist of the story.

The point of TDK is that Bruce doesn't know what he wants or who he truly is so he just wanders around the movie, truly unsure of what to do and almost unable to be definite in his decisions and actions. He never realised what being Batman meant in Begins and is only just coming to realise that isn't a matter of cleaning up the streets and hanging up the cowl and there's many times where you don't think he's going to make the "right choice".

In the end, he does. The reasons why are not dealt with through him, but through the other characters.

Anyway:
Dent = Bruce's hope and the finite end to his life as Batman.
Rachel = Bruce's future ("one chance for a normal life").
The Joker = The threat Bruce faces, total anarchy and unbeatable forces of evil.
Gordon = tireless crusade of Batman as he tries to the right thing, but it never happens.
Lucius = Batman's morals - taking a hit and doing something which goes against your normal code in order to achieve some level of goodness.
Alfred = Batman's faithfulness and loyalty - like Bruce, Alfred had to do something dishonest - not out of complete necessity, but because he didn't want to cause unnecessary pain.

Love the post.

But I'm not a fan of the truth is a luxury people can't afford to have message - for their own good or wellbeing. Although if the next film has the truth coming out. It might be an interesting twist. As you point out neither people of Gotham (about Two-Face's crimes) nor Bruce (Rachel's choice) get the truth. I'll admit I can live with the latter (a lie of omittance). Although the former should get Gordon in trouble and I don't like that. That's mainly why I don't like that twist at the end. Although the speech was very cool. I just can't like it. I just don't like outright lies.

Angeloz

 

[Lobster Charlie]

I know everyone reading this is a Batman fan and shocked over what I'm saying but being a huge Batman fan myself, one who clearly understands all the metaphors and literary plot elements, I was very, very bored throughout the entire movie and not impressed over anything.

Actually, I'm not shocked in the least with the opinion you've posted. You've been stating it for what feels like forever now, over and over again on these boards. I'm wondering why you even bother discussing it anymore...haven't you gotten it all off your chest by now? I mean, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I just figure we eventually let go, move on, or create something we think is superior to that which we've focused our complaints against. Sandy Carolla made "Dead End," my friend WormyT made a Superman trailer out of disgust with Superman Returns. Maybe you can step up to the plate and make your own Batman fan film/trailer/animated short?

No offense intended, I'm just sayin'.