Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[knockout]

It boils down to personal taste. I really love Batman Begins too than The Dark Knight. I just find Begins more artistic,fresh and all around entertaining.
This site sums up my problems with The Dark Knight
http://drinkmymilkshake.wordpress.c...why-the-dark-knight-fails-as-a-coherent-story

This also sums up why people still believe & miss Katie in The Dark Knight
http://bleutuna.com/qmanning/2008/07/25/the-5-worst-things-about-the-dark-knight/

I have to mention the BAT-LASH. Its really over the top hype especially with the death of Ledger. The movie wont be so special if you imagine cutting out the scenes of Two-Face especially the Joker. With Begins the movie still prevails without the hype of the villains. Some people also lost the ability to think for themselves. Just because we heard all the time and many geeks saying TDK was perfect,TDK and Ledger so Oscar worthy and its the greatest movie of all time we easily buy it when its not the case.

 

[The Joker]

This site sums up my problems with The Dark Knight
http://drinkmymilkshake.wordpress.c...why-the-dark-knight-fails-as-a-coherent-story

I think the many responses underneath that list perfectly sum up what people should think about that t:

 

[Travesty]

I think the many responses underneath that list perfectly sum up what people should think about that t:

Not really. I read both the points and the responses, and I still like 1, 4, 5, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 24, 28, 30, 31, 34

So I believe in about half of what was said. Most of the responses lean towards "well, the police are corrupt" shtick. While most of that is somewhat true, if the cops were that corrupt, then there was no need for half of what went on in the movie.

Like, Jokers plan while being held in the MCU. So, you're telling me The Joker was like, "I'll get questioned, and I'm sure Batman will be there. He will then throw me up against some glass, and this is when I'll make all these cops split up, just so I can be in a room with a single officer, who isn't corrupt, and I'll overtake him with the glass-shard that I foresaw in my scheme, just in time to grab a cell phone, just to blow up the fat guy, that will kill everybody in the blast except for Lau and myself.....gentlemen, it couldn't be easier". But if the cops were so corrupt, then why didn't The Joker just go, "hey corrupt cops! Laus in jail, and I want him. Cool?".

 

[Doctor Octopus]

The Dark Knight is vastly superior to Begins.

I can't imagine how Nolan will top it.

 

[MacLeod]

The Dark Knight is vastly superior to Begins.

I can't imagine how Nolan will top it.

I strongly disagree. Begins was far superior to TDK and even that was an OK Batman movie. Begins was a good movie but it still wasn't a Batman movie to me at all.

 

[dude stannis]

I think the many responses underneath that list perfectly sum up what people should think about that t:

You mean all the TDK fanboys telling him to get a life? You don't see a contradiction there? t:

 

[Mako]

While TDK is awesome and i really did love , Begins just does something for me that TDK didn't.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Begins was a good movie but it still wasn't a Batman movie to me at all.

What made it fail for you as a Batman movie?

You mean all the TDK fanboys telling him to get a life? You don't see a contradiction there?

I think they are right. Most of his list is nit picking nonsense about a comic book movie.

 

[Travesty]

I think they are right. Most of his list is nit picking nonsense about a comic book movie.

Same with all the fanboys who didn't enjoy Begins. Its all preference, so it doesn't really matter to me what you like, as long as I just know what I like.

 

[knockout]

TDK losing the Academy sums up why its not that great.Sure the Academy is political for awhile now but I even think TDK getting some nods had some political bearings too especially on the blockbuster/superhero biz in Hollywood vs the Independent movies.
Im seeing more and more people appreciating BB and people realizing TDK was not the greatest or perfect movie as some fans glorify it to be. Its apparent on many forums now and off the net. Besides I never take fans that get hostile seriously and instead of coming up with intelligent posts they just call you names and tell you to get lost likewise with those critics that got death threats because some fans were upset they didnt love TDK so much.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

TDK losing the Academy sums up why its not that great.

Wrong. The fact TDK was even acknowledged by the Academy proves it's as great as most people claim. How many comic book movies can you name that featured in as many categories as TDK did? Try none.

The truth is that a small pocket of fans are bitter at TDK's popularity because it eclipsed so many other great movies last year in the popularity stakes. And so they try and split hairs and nit pick at the movie in vain attempts to undermine it's greatness.

 

[Travesty]

The truth is that a small pocket of fans are bitter at TDK's popularity because it eclipsed so many other great movies last year in the popularity stakes. And so they try and split hairs and nit pick at the movie in vain attempts to undermine it's greatness.

Or the fact that I wanted the movie to be something better then what it was, academy or not. I'm probably more of a Batman fan then you'll ever realize, and I wanted nothing but the best from TDK, and was expecting it to be. Sure, it was a good movie, but as far as what it was supposed to be about(Batman), no, I think it was far from below.

I think the criticism is coming from knowing that the "honey moon" period is over. I mean, when B89 came out, it was end-all be-all, and that movie gets a TON of criticism. Was it "jealous fanboys"? Of course, because they saw the faults after they found out the girl they married turned into a 200+lbs hippopotamus, who used to look like a supermodel. Is it their faults? In a sense, but its just the nature of the beast, and you either like old fatties, or you get divorced. Simple as that!

Now, the true testament is the people who have learned from their mistakes, and knows better then to ask the girl to be their wife after only being with them for a few months. Although, some rarely learn from their mistakes, and fall for the same stuff over and over again. If you like what you have, then that's more then alright with me. But, don't get down on us, when we realized we don't want to date a fatty anymore.

 

[The Joker]

Nothing to do with a "honeymoon period" as you put it, Travesty. It's down to a small minority of fans who's complaints were drowned out in the overwhelming influx of praise TDK was getting last year. Now that the dust has settled, this small group of critics are more vocal.

It's a cycle every extremely popular comic book movie goes thru. I've seen it happen to Spider-Man 2, Batman Begins, and X-Men 2. It would have happened more to Iron Man as well except that was eclipsed by TDK last year, so it took all the heat of it.

 

[El Payaso]

Okay a couple things, I just read the whole thread..


Pointless scenes in BB?...NONE why? Because this was a character driven movie, it wasn't driven from its plot. Every little scene, allowed you to look more at the psyche of a character, thats what they were aiming for..so there was no pointless scenes, Thomas was telling Bruce about the monorail to show that his father still cared about the city, you couldn't get that if you had just heard about it, you also find out that he isn't really business oriented, he doesn't do things for the money but for really trying to help human society as a whole.

Being a character driven movie doesn’t mean you can’t have pointless scenes. For once, the scene where Alfred asks “why bats” is a nice example of how to be redundant for the sake of it. You don’t spend 60 minutes of movie explaining something just to have two characters repeating exactly what you have been seeing for half a movie. That’s just bad writing, or maybe Goyer was throwing some awe-sounding sentences to get a couple of cheap fangasms. The scene where Alfred hammers the bat-helmet. The point of the scene? The relevance of it in the plot? None.

Now, about the monorail scene, sure. We need that information about the characters, we need to know that about Thomas Wayne. The information is not pointless, but the way it is delievered is painfully amateurish. It’s not just a matter of having the characters talking about something, but it has also to make sense. Goyer himself proposes how close Thomas and Bruce are as father and son in one scene and in the immediately next scene he tells us Bruce doesn’t know a but about his father. Not even where does he work. It’s obvious Goyer was worried just about the information, not the characters, and that for a character-driven movie can’t be good.

the joke about the coat? I thought it was funny, i enjoyed it, didn't kill the scene.

The “joke” of the coat is actually not even a joke. What’s so funny about it really? Nothing. It’s just a reference to a previously introduced character that hasn’t have and won’t have any relevance in the story.

That said, you can’t force such needless attempt of humour right in one of the most important and serious moments of the story. The “I’m Batman” moment surely needs some good atmosphere around and it was completely destroyed by a “joke” that have, once again, no relevance other than to try to make you smile at the wrong moment for no reason. Not to mention that the bum didn’t seem to be distracted from eating by having Batman landing loudly on Falcone’s car, grabbing the guy through the car’s roof and the “I’m Batman.” But suddenly, the “nice coat” caught his attention.

 

[El Payaso]

TDK losing the Academy sums up why its not that great.

Opposite to, let’s say, the awful lot of Academy Awards Batman Begins got?

If you know a little about this Academy, you’ll find out that an awful lot of mediocre movies have been greatly awarded and directors such as Hitchcock, Kubrick and Chaplin never won. Losing the Academy could easily mean real quality.

Sure the Academy is political for awhile now but I even think TDK getting some nods had some political bearings too especially on the blockbuster/superhero biz in Hollywood vs the Independent movies.

Academy has refused to acknowledge the superhero movies genre since forever. I’m not even glad they awarded Heath Ledger. Ledger was great to me but I can smell this Academy awarding him just because he died tragically.

Or the fact that I wanted the movie to be something better then what it was, academy or not. I'm probably more of a Batman fan then you'll ever realize, and I wanted nothing but the best from TDK, and was expecting it to be. Sure, it was a good movie, but as far as what it was supposed to be about(Batman), no, I think it was far from below.

Why you say that? What about Batman was wrongly handled in TDK?

I think the criticism is coming from knowing that the "honey moon" period is over. I mean, when B89 came out, it was end-all be-all, and that movie gets a TON of criticism.

And the same happened to Batman begins. And now we’re at it, it happened to Superman the Movie also, and Iron man, and the Incredible Hulk, and X-Men. It’s like it has happened to every movie that ahs been praised at first. Some people will come and criticise it.

Was it "jealous fanboys"? Of course, because they saw the faults after they found out the girl they married turned into a 200+lbs hippopotamus, who used to look like a supermodel. Is it their faults? In a sense, but its just the nature of the beast, and you either like old fatties, or you get divorced. Simple as that!

All chauvinism and shallowness aside, a movie doesn’t change as a person that gains weight does, so the meatphor doesn’t work in this case.

Sure if she puts on weight, too bad. But if the movie you used to like “changes,” then it is all inside the head of the viewer, and thus it is him who has to think as to why he did like the movie in the first place

Now, the true testament is the people who have learned from their mistakes, and knows better then to ask the girl to be their wife after only being with them for a few months. Although, some rarely learn from their mistakes, and fall for the same stuff over and over again. If you like what you have, then that's more then alright with me. But, don't get down on us, when we realized we don't want to date a fatty anymore.

Now you mention it, Notan didn’t fall for it twice. All the mistakes from Batman Begins were corrected. The crappy action scenes were now visible and Goyer’s awful dialogues were now replaced by Jonah Nolan’s brilliance.

So it seems Nolan didn’t marry the fat girl twice.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Or the fact that I wanted the movie to be something better then what it was, academy or not. I'm probably more of a Batman fan then you'll ever realize, and I wanted nothing but the best from TDK, and was expecting it to be. Sure, it was a good movie, but as far as what it was supposed to be about(Batman), no, I think it was far from below.

I think the criticism is coming from knowing that the "honey moon" period is over. I mean, when B89 came out, it was end-all be-all, and that movie gets a TON of criticism. Was it "jealous fanboys"? Of course, because they saw the faults after they found out the girl they married turned into a 200+lbs hippopotamus, who used to look like a supermodel. Is it their faults? In a sense, but its just the nature of the beast, and you either like old fatties, or you get divorced. Simple as that!

Now, the true testament is the people who have learned from their mistakes, and knows better then to ask the girl to be their wife after only being with them for a few months. Although, some rarely learn from their mistakes, and fall for the same stuff over and over again. If you like what you have, then that's more then alright with me. But, don't get down on us, when we realized we don't want to date a fatty anymore.

Agreed

TDK is average stuff.

 

[El Payaso]

Agreed

TDK is average stuff.

Oh yes, average reviews, average BO numbers, average reception from the GA. Your comment oozes brilliance.

 

[-Arya-]

Oh yes, average reviews, average BO numbers, average reception from the GA. Your comment oozes brilliance.

To be fair, most of the praise from these sources was due to The Joker. Just saying.

 

[Travesty]

Why you say that? What about Batman was wrongly handled in TDK?

You can read my points that I made on the first page of this thread if you're interested.

And the same happened to Batman begins. And now we’re at it, it happened to Superman the Movie also, and Iron man, and the Incredible Hulk, and X-Men. It’s like it has happened to every movie that ahs been praised at first. Some people will come and criticise it.

Hehe, I know, as its my entire point.

All chauvinism and shallowness aside, a movie doesn’t change as a person that gains weight does, so the meatphor doesn’t work in this case.

Sure if she puts on weight, too bad. But if the movie you used to like “changes,” then it is all inside the head of the viewer, and thus it is him who has to think as to why he did like the movie in the first place

Sure it changes. Does it physically change like my example? No, its impossible, but that wasn't the point. What changes isn't anything physical, but what does is peoples enthusiasm over the material that's in front of them. Some peoples enthusiasm may never change over what they have, and they'll cherish it forever, while others will feel duped, and now see the ignorance of their ways. Is it always smart to go after the hot girls all the time? Maybe/maybe not, as it all depends on the individual and what they can put up with.

Now you mention it, Notan didn’t fall for it twice. All the mistakes from Batman Begins were corrected. The crappy action scenes were now visible and Goyer’s awful dialogues were now replaced by Jonah Nolan’s brilliance.

So it seems Nolan didn’t marry the fat girl twice.

Hehe, yes, somethings changed for the better, but that doesn't make the overall product any better to me. Its like when you are dating a girl you think is amazing overall. She's cute, bright, and treats you nice. She normally dresses down for the most part, and never gets to "girly" with things. Then, one day, she comes home with a boob job, her face has a different style of make-up then usual, and her outfit shows off her vulumtuous curves and new surgery. She looks SMOKING HOT, but when she walked in the door, she came with a new attitude then what you're used to. She now treats you different, and is now self absorbed. What happened to the cute, bright eyed, wonderful girl you once loved? You already knew she was sexy before she got a makeover, but now her attitudes changed for the worse.

Yes, some things changed for the better in TDK, but that doesn't make the entire package amazing. If you like the newer style in TDK, then more power to you, but to me, I don't like the change in attitude. Boobies are cool, but that doesn't mean every girl needs to get implants.

 

[Travesty]

Oh yes, average reviews, average BO numbers, average reception from the GA. Your comment oozes brilliance.

Critics and reviewers are just as relevant as your points. Meaning:Everybody has their own opinion, and you should go with what YOU like, and not beat to the sound of every drum. Should I go buy/love the new Kayne West album, just because the reviews are above average? One mans trash, is another mans treasure.

 

[Bunker]

I love the hell out of both movies, but I have to say that Begins has a better rewatchablility factor. TDK is one of those movies you watch every month or so. I could still watch Begins evey week and never get bored of it.

 

[El Payaso]

You can read my points that I made on the first page of this thread if you're interested.

Ok, I will.

Hehe, I know, as its my entire point.

Well, yes. People will criticise everything. That TDK is not the first good movie to be critisized by a few. Can't disagree.

Sure it changes.

Unless a movie is altered, re-edited or something of the kind, it doesn’t change. Only the viewer’s perception can change.

Does it physically change like my example? No, its impossible, but that wasn't the point.

It was exactly your point.

A woman that “turned into a 200+lbs hippopotamus, who used to look like a supermodel.” That’s nothing but a physical change.

A movie doesn’t change as the woman in your example does.

In this case, the woman who used to be a super-model is still a super-model, it is just you who decided to find her fat one day.

What changes isn't anything physical, but what does is peoples enthusiasm over the material that's in front of them.

My point exactly. The movie doesn't change but a person's perception.


Which is why I said: “if the movie you used to like “changes,” then it is all inside the head of the viewer, and thus it is him who has to think as to why he did like the movie in the first place.” Remember?

Some peoples enthusiasm may never change over what they have, and they'll cherish it forever, while others will feel duped, and now see the ignorance of their ways.

Okay, let’s just ask ourselves why would anyone feel duped (duped = tricked, fooled) by something that doesn’t change, as a person does. IF we accept that one person suddenly feels duped about a movie (or by a movie?), then there has to be a source of deception. The movie itself can’t be, since it is the exact same movie he saw the first time. So if – and I underline IF – he feels duped, it is only his own mind which has duped him. It would be ‘self-duping’ or ‘self-fooling’ what we’re talking here.

Hehe, yes, somethings changed for the better, but that doesn't make the overall product any better to me. Its like when you are dating a girl you think is amazing overall. She's cute, bright, and treats you nice. She normally dresses down for the most part, and never gets to "girly" with things. Then, one day, she comes home with a boob job, her face has a different style of make-up then usual, and her outfit shows off her vulumtuous curves and new surgery. She looks SMOKING HOT, but when she walked in the door, she came with a new attitude then what you're used to. She now treats you different, and is now self absorbed. What happened to the cute, bright eyed, wonderful girl you once loved? You already knew she was sexy before she got a makeover, but now her attitudes changed for the worse.

Yes, some things changed for the better in TDK, but that doesn't make the entire package amazing. If you like the newer style in TDK, then more power to you, but to me, I don't like the change in attitude. Boobies are cool, but that doesn't mean every girl needs to get a boob-job.

If we have to attach “attitudes” to movies then let’s analyze BB and TDK. While the first kept repeating and spoonfeeding verbally everything (in order to make the point that the movie was about “fear” Goyer felt that the right way to do it was to repeat literally the word ‘fear’ all over the movie), TDK didn’t and had much more elaborated verbal and non-verbal sociological discourse (Joker’s background as a terrorist was far more elaborated and real than Ra’s al Ghul’s). So in the end one movie treated audiences as children and the other as adults. Sure, some people will not be up to the challenge but we can’t blame the movie’s way to treat them.

 

[El Payaso]

To be fair, most of the praise from these sources was due to The Joker. Just saying.

To be fair, a lot came due to the script too.

But wasn’t Joker part of the movie? So how is it Joker getting praise not directly attached to TDK getting praise? How can we “separate” Joker from TDK in order to make it look less good?

That said, it wasn’t a generic Joker what we got, but a specific version that – as anything else – could have sucked to no end or have been so-so. It wasn’t the acse due to Nolan’s approach, Ledger’s acting, artist in make-up and wardrobe, photography, music, etc etc what made this Joker the wonder it is.

 

[Travesty]

El Payso, I don't understand why you see the need to pick apart my posts sentence by sentence, and mis-quote me like that? You knew where my points were going, yet, you decided to not read the entire idea, and chicken picked what I had to say, to try and get your point across.

Okay, let’s just ask ourselves why would anyone feel duped (duped = tricked, fooled) by something that doesn’t change, as a person doess

You are either still confused by my point, or you're just in the wrong thread. This thread is about people who think Begins is better then TDK. When I gave my "fat supermodel" example, I was talking about expectations going into TDK by having already seen Begins, which again, is the point of this thread. It isn't comparing if B89 is better then TDK, or Forever, or B&R, etc. You're acting as if TDK is so good, that everybody that went into the theater had to like it, and if they disagree, then they are just flat out wrong or just lying about what they just witnessed. I went into the theater, happy, excited, full of hope and enthusiasm. When I came out, I felt duped(tricked), due to the expectations left over from Nolan by my experience with Batman Begins. Since he's the same director, and this is a direct sequel, my example was comparing what I had with Begins as apposed to TDK, hence, I liked Begins more then TDK(point of thread).


You are more then welcome to state your case, as I can tell you like TDK more, which is fine by me. But what isn't fine, is purposefully misquoting me, and using this to build your case. I know you can defend this movie without having to do that, as its a good movie, but don't stoop to cheap tactics please.

If we have to attach “attitudes” to movies then let’s analyze BB and TDK. While the first kept repeating and spoonfeeding verbally everything (in order to make the point that the movie was about “fear” Goyer felt that the right way to do it was to repeat literally the word ‘fear’ all over the movie), TDK didn’t and had much more elaborated verbal and non-verbal sociological discourse (Joker’s background as a terrorist was far more elaborated and real than Ra’s al Ghul’s). So in the end one movie treated audiences as children and the other as adults. Sure, some people will not be up to the challenge but we can’t blame the movie’s way to treat them.

Again, that is the point of this thread(analyzing BB to TDK). My example I presented, IS me comparing/analyzing BB to TDK. See, I understand that you think TDK is a better package overall, but again, you either missed my point, or are stooping to cheap tactics. Yes, I know Begins has faults, but so does TDK. If you go back to my example, and think about what I said, then you happen to like that the girl got the boob-job, while I enjoy the girl just plain and regular. Just because somethings look/sound better, doesn't mean that the overall package(movie), is better to me personally.

Yes, Begins used the word "fear", and repeated a LOT. Yes, that was something that bugged me about the movie. Yes, Katie Holmes didn't do a great job as Rachel. Yes, the movie isn't perfect. Yes, TDK has a better script...... BUT, that doesn't mean that I(me personally) like TDK more, in fact, I like it a LOT less then Begins, B89, Returns, and its a toss up with Forever. Beetoven's 9th symphony is a technically beautiful piece of art, but just because it's more technical and moving, doesn't mean I can't enjoy Led Zeppelin more.

 

[Mister H.]

I too enjoy BB more than TDK.

The Dent transformation was ridiculously convenient, Rachel Dawes was nothing more than a prop, the ascension up the skyscraper was unoriginal and uninspired, and Two-Face looked totally out of place. How can Nolan spend an entire film (Batman Begins) and 3/4 of another trying to convince us that Gotham actually exists, only to give us a Two-Face origin that seemed as unlikely as something from a Spiderman movie, and then further confuse us by presenting a Two-Face that looks like a creature from The Mummy?

I am a big fan of The Dark Knight, it was a brilliant piece of entertainment, but I found Batman Begins to be a much more visceral experience. I know the third act is a bit weak, but I just feel its a better Batman movie. That is something that is totally subjective, so need for any of us to argue about it. Posters who like BB better, as the thread title indicates, should join in and share their thoughts. Others should get lost.