Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[Ryan]

I'm a Batman fan, hence I like Batman. Batman Begins featured Batman the most and he had the best scenes bar none. Batman Begins IS the better Batman movie. Case closed for me.

 

[GregComicFan]

I'm a Batman fan, hence I like Batman. Batman Begins featured Batman the most and he had the best scenes bar none. Batman Begins IS the better Batman movie. Case closed for me.

I think TDK is a better movie, but I agree with you that Batman Begin's is BATMAN's movie... which is why I am hoping Batman 3 is more like BB and less like TDK and shifts the focus back to Bruce/Batman.

 

[Vengeance of Bane]

It's really hard to compare the towo movies, at least it is for me. BB is and feels like a "Batman" movie, while TDK feels like a big crime epic featuring Batman. But that is also what I admire, that they took a huge chance and did something completely different from the previous installment. Too many sequels repeat themselfes and bring nothing new to the story or characters and TDK did. I have no doubt the third installment will be completely different from the first two.

 

[Punisher Rising]

While both are incredible films, when I think about it I think I do indeed favor BB to TDK, as it felt better-made overall and with a better narrative and structure, and as many have said, it felt more like a Batman-centric story. TDK is still a great movie, but it does have a few glaring flaws that hold it back a bit for me (namely some overly kinetic editing and the plot did feel a bit convuluted in some spots).

I need to re-watch both soon and as a double feature, but looking back I think I favor BB a bit to TDK.

 

[simplysuperhero]

Great thread. And great points.

I too preferred BB over TDK because of the latter's over-the-top hype and build-up and box office success. The storyline to BB is sharper while TDK bends to the city politics of Gothan which, for a Batman movie, should have been more peripheral. In other words it got in the way and was a distraction to keep up with and try to figure out.

 

[Eric Brooks]

gotta add I prefer the Begins suit to the TDK suit as well, plus the first half of the film is just brilliantly structured, everything from Bruce's training to the scene with Bruce as child in the police station with Gordon to the end scene with the two of them on the rooftop, you can truely see how far Bruce has come since the incident

the movie is pretty much a Bat fan's dream come true

.

Actually I find Begins to be a massively better movie than the Dark Knight. I thoroughly enjoy origin story's and Batman being my favorite superhero growing up (seriously, I had every square inch of my room in 3rd and 4th grade covered in Bat memorabilia) helps sway that opinion in Begin's favor. I also enjoyed the background music during the train scene with Bruce as a child talking to his father and at the end of the film when he's talking to Rachel. I also enjoyed and am more attracted to Katie Holmes (she just did a much better job IMO than Maggie, and I'm not too thrilled with that girls looks either). Although The Dark Knight features my two favorite villains, that's not enough to save it as Begins features my 3rd and 4th favorite villains (which is just coincidence, I've favored them long before the movies were made). It's almost like Nolan and myself think alike when it comes to The Bat

so yea, Begins stomps The Dark Knight

agreed

 

[redfirebird2008]

I was very, very bored throughout the entire movie and not impressed over anything.

Not even the interrogation scene?

I'm not sure how any Batman fan could be bored and unimpressed by that scene. It was a perfect live action portrayal of Batman and Joker's relationship.

 

[Dark Guardian]

Wow. I turn my back for a week or two and *poof*! This thread is four pages long. Wowsas!

Not even the interrogation scene?

I'm not sure how any Batman fan could be bored and unimpressed by that scene. It was a perfect live action portrayal of Batman and Joker's relationship.

I was not all that impressed, and its definitely not the perfect live action portrayal of Batman and Joker's relationship. It's just not. Its not even in the same general direction as the real relationship between the two of them. In fact, the last Joker scene is closer, much closer in fact to a real portrayal of the two characters and their conflict.

 

[The Joker]

I was not all that impressed, and its definitely not the perfect live action portrayal of Batman and Joker's relationship. It's just not.

Ok, then explain what you think was missing from it, please.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Ok, then explain what you think was missing from it, please.

I'm very curious to know myself.

 

[El Payaso]

Me too.

 

[Dark Guardian]

Ok.
For me, the Joker and Batman have alot more between them than Bats just hitting the Joker and the Joker not caring. I will admit I was happy that that small piece was portrayed.
But at least for my own personal canon and interest; in many media including but not limited to "The Killing Joke" "B:TAS (specifically The Man Who Killed Batman)" "Batman: Child of Dreams", Joker has been shown to value Batman as his one true reason for doing anything at all. In some of those cases he actually considers Batman his only friend, in his own warped way, viewing their intellectual and physical conflicts as a large chess game between two best friends.

Putting aside the considerable cosmetic problems with the scene, Joker's lack of humor and wit, Batman's all too quick jump from the calm composed Dark Knight to unreasonably violent and one track attitude, as well as my constant problem with Batman being duped by the "I'll switch the locations on you" trick, the personalities of the characters are completely different from what I myself, and I'm sure at least a good many other people consider to be the actual characterizations of them.

I don't understand why Joker in the film considers Batman to be 'not like them' as in like Cops. And he certainly doesn't explain himself.
Batman uses only pain as his means of interrogating Joker and when that fails he switches to... wait... he doesn't. You'd think after the slam to the head and the crunching of the Joker's hand, he'd realize that this wasn't going to get him anywhere. The Batman in the comics, or pretty much any other media would know that. And in case you're whipping out the reply of "Well, thats just showing that he's naive and still working out how to be Batman." I'd re-watch Batman Begins. He uses a multitude of interrogation techniques on his enemies in that film, but appears to have lost the knack when it comes to The Dark Knight. With Maroni its pain, with The Joker, its pain.

Just a few little nitpicks, although I'm getting off my own topic again, as I did even with my last post. The thread is supposed to be for those who enjoy/like Begins better to state their reasons why, not to bash/analyze or even discuss The Dark Knight.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Ok.
For me, the Joker and Batman have alot more between them than Bats just hitting the Joker and the Joker not caring.

That seems like an oversimplification of the scene to me. The Joker very clearly stated the yin and yang situation between the two of them, that they need each other to exist. So why completely ignore that and pretend like it didn't happen in order to bash the violence in the scene?

BTW, the notion of this not being a "bash TDK" thread is laughable considering that's exactly what your OP does right off the bat. I like the two movies equally. For every little nitpick you can come up with against TDK, I can name one against BB. Neither movie is perfect and I tend to defend whichever is being bashed by whoever, whether it be a TDK fanboy trashing Begins or a Begins fanboy bashing TDK, or an Iron Man/Spidey/X-Men, etc. fanboy bashing either of them.

 

[The Joker]

Ok.
For me, the Joker and Batman have alot more between them than Bats just hitting the Joker and the Joker not caring. I will admit I was happy that that small piece was portrayed.
But at least for my own personal canon and interest; in many media including but not limited to "The Killing Joke" "B:TAS (specifically The Man Who Killed Batman)" "Batman: Child of Dreams", Joker has been shown to value Batman as his one true reason for doing anything at all. In some of those cases he actually considers Batman his only friend, in his own warped way, viewing their intellectual and physical conflicts as a large chess game between two best friends.

Batman: "Why do you want to kill me?"
Joker: "Hahahahahahaha, I don't want to kill you. What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, NO! No you....you complete ME!"

In what way did that not show Joker valuing Batman?

Putting aside the considerable cosmetic problems with the scene, Joker's lack of humor and wit, Batman's all too quick jump from the calm composed Dark Knight to unreasonably violent and one track attitude, as well as my constant problem with Batman being duped by the "I'll switch the locations on you" trick, the personalities of the characters are completely different from what I myself, and I'm sure at least a good many other people consider to be the actual characterizations of them.

Joker's lack of humour?

"Never start with the head, the victim gets all fuzzy"
*Imitating Batman* "And tonight you're gonna break your one rule"
"Look at you go"
"Does Harvey know about you and his little bunny?"

Not to mention his constant laughing every time Batman hit him. And what is this nonsense about Batman being quick to temper? Joker has always been a master of getting under Batman's skin.

And what are these cosmetic problems with the scene that you mentioned?

I don't understand why Joker in the film considers Batman to be 'not like them' as in like Cops. And he certainly doesn't explain himself.

Yeah, I cannot understand why Joker thinks a man who hides his identity behind a pointy eared cowl, who operates outside the jurisdiction of the law, dresses like a giant bat, and belts around Gotham in a big black tank, is not like a Cop.

Joker really must be crazy to think that

Batman uses only pain as his means of interrogating Joker and when that fails he switches to... wait... he doesn't. You'd think after the slam to the head and the crunching of the Joker's hand, he'd realize that this wasn't going to get him anywhere.

So what else should he have done? Joker is clearly not afraid of Batman or being hurt by him. How else can he coerce him into talking?

And in case you're whipping out the reply of "Well, thats just showing that he's naive and still working out how to be Batman." I'd re-watch Batman Begins. He uses a multitude of interrogation techniques on his enemies in that film, but appears to have lost the knack when it comes to The Dark Knight. With Maroni its pain, with The Joker, its pain.

LOL! You think the techniques Batman used on Flass would make Joker talk? Batman tossed Joker off a building and Joker laughed all the way down.

Joker does not fear death. He does not fear pain. He does not fear Batman. And in the comics, Scarecrow sprayed fear gas on Joker, and it didn't work.

 

[El Payaso]

Joker, you said it all.

 

[Grommers]

Joker & Batman are complete opposites its perfect.

 

[Borat]

I love both films. Each movie has many different things that were well done.

 

[Travesty]

I thought The Joker and Batman relationship was fine in TDK.

 

[El Payaso]

Fine is little. It was very well done and explained.

 

[Travesty]

Fine is little. It was very well done and explained.

Calm down......

 

[El Payaso]

 

[Dark Guardian]

Batman: "Why do you want to kill me?"
Joker: "Hahahahahahaha, I don't want to kill you. What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, NO! No you....you complete ME!"

In what way did that not show Joker valuing Batman?

Hurm... How about it seems more like Joker is recognizing Batman as a bigger challenge than mob dealers, and parodying Jerry McGuire. Not exactly Joker stating that Batman is his ultimate challenge and only in the end does he state that they are destined to battle forever. By the end of the film their relationship is indeed better portrayed (though still not to the extent that I would call it 'the perfect onscreen portrayal'). This scene however lacks.

Joker's lack of humour?

"Never start with the head, the victim gets all fuzzy"
*Imitating Batman* "And tonight you're gonna break your one rule"
"Look at you go"
"Does Harvey know about you and his little bunny?"

Not to mention his constant laughing every time Batman hit him.

None of that in any way reminds me of the Joker's humor. I don't know what you've seen of the Joker in any other media, but... thats not his wit, thats not his style. Its not really even all that funny, not even by the twisted standards that the Joker operates upon.
I can pull out a bunch of lines from the '89 movie that are much funnier, or for that matter, probably some out of the dreaded "The Batman" animated show... If you'd really like I can go ahead and present them for you, just say the word.

And what is this nonsense about Batman being quick to temper? Joker has always been a master of getting under Batman's skin.

Right now? After just meeting the guy in person for the first couple of times? Really... And yes, if you look at almost any other source material during a confrontation with Joker, Batman doesn't start punching, slamming, punching, crunching within the first five minutes of conversation, unless Joker is currently holding a gun to someones head, or has a detonater in his hand. I like my Batman to actually be calm, silent, composed, you know, give people the whole Batman stare treatment. If you'd like I can also give you more examples.

Even the cop who was supposed to be guarding the Joker later seemed to understand that fact that pain was not something that threatened the guy more than Batman...

And what are these cosmetic problems with the scene that you mentioned?

Oh I dunno, the fact that The Joker still looks greasy, dirty, trashy. Thats a discussion for another thread but namely, TDK's Joker does not fulfill the necessary visual qualifications for being the Clown Prince of Crime.

Yeah, I cannot understand why Joker thinks a man who hides his identity behind a pointy eared cowl, who operates outside the jurisdiction of the law, dresses like a giant bat, and belts around Gotham in a big black tank, is not like a Cop.

Joker really must be crazy to think that

Well he is really crazy isn't he? But he (and myself) was also speaking in a deeper metaphorical sense than just looks. I believe that he was trying to state that Batman was akin to the Joker himself, rather than a cop, in terms of temperment and ideals. Doesn't make much sense to me either.

So what else should he have done? Joker is clearly not afraid of Batman or being hurt by him. How else can he coerce him into talking?

LOL! You think the techniques Batman used on Flass would make Joker talk? Batman tossed Joker off a building and Joker laughed all the way down.

Joker does not fear death. He does not fear pain. He does not fear Batman. And in the comics, Scarecrow sprayed fear gas on Joker, and it didn't work.

Yes, I am aware of this, as Batman should have been. Batman is not a guy who only has two options for intimidation. He's creative, he's resourceful, he's intelligent. So excuse me if I'm expecting Batman to do something other than just hurt people all the time when he's trying to get information out of them. There's always other ways, as Batman (at least in the comics and in other films) has demonstrated time and time again.

BTW, the notion of this not being a "bash TDK" thread is laughable considering that's exactly what your OP does right off the bat. I like the two movies equally. For every little nitpick you can come up with against TDK, I can name one against BB. Neither movie is perfect and I tend to defend whichever is being bashed by whoever, whether it be a TDK fanboy trashing Begins or a Begins fanboy bashing TDK, or an Iron Man/Spidey/X-Men, etc. fanboy bashing either of them.

The notion itself is not laughable. It is indeed a very admirable purpose, to attempt to create a thread where those who have differing opinions from the mass of other fans can safely state those opinions and discuss them with like minded individuals.
Whether my opening statement folows that purpose or not does not change the 'laughability' of the original intent.

And as for my opening statement, I was giving contrasting reasons as to why certain things within Batman Begins stand out as better for me. Perhaps I should have edited those out to avoid the very kind of statements you've just made. Unfortunately that would have left only what was good about Begins, and since this is a thread about Begins being 'better' than TDK, you can't state how its better without stating what is worse in comparison.

 

[redfirebird2008]

The notion itself is not laughable. It is indeed a very admirable purpose, to attempt to create a thread where those who have differing opinions from the mass of other fans can safely state those opinions and discuss them with like minded individuals.
Whether my opening statement folows that purpose or not does not change the 'laughability' of the original intent.

And as for my opening statement, I was giving contrasting reasons as to why certain things within Batman Begins stand out as better for me. Perhaps I should have edited those out to avoid the very kind of statements you've just made. Unfortunately that would have left only what was good about Begins, and since this is a thread about Begins being 'better' than TDK, you can't state how its better without stating what is worse in comparison.

At SHH, said notion IS laughable.

Quite a few of the posts in this thread are the equivalent of bashing TDK rather than praising Begins. That's pretty much what you're gonna get in this forum though. That's why I called the notion laughable in the first place. It's very difficult to have that kind of thread without it quickly turning into a "bash B" thread rather than a "praise A" thread due to the fanboy nature of the posters on this site.

 

[Travesty]

It wasn't all that amazing, in other words.

 

[The Joker]

Hurm... How about it seems more like Joker is recognizing Batman as a bigger challenge than mob dealers, and parodying Jerry McGuire. Not exactly Joker stating that Batman is his ultimate challenge and only in the end does he state that they are destined to battle forever.

Man, that is utter rubbish!

Of course Joker is recognizing him as his ultimate challenge. What do you think the "You complete me" line means? Joker is laying it down right there that Batman is his ultimate foe. The challenge that completes him and makes it all really fun. That's why he doesn't want to kill him.

By the end of the film their relationship is indeed better portrayed (though still not to the extent that I would call it 'the perfect onscreen portrayal'). This scene however lacks.

I'm sorry, but I think you are completely worng. There was nothing missing at all from the Batman/Joker dynamic here.

You've still failed to point out anything that was absent.

None of that in any way reminds me of the Joker's humor. I don't know what you've seen of the Joker in any other media, but... thats not his wit, thats not his style.

Yes, it is. Mocking Batman is totally Joker's style.

I don't know what media you've been watching, because that is common knowledge.

I can pull out a bunch of lines from the '89 movie that are much funnier, or for that matter, probably some out of the dreaded "The Batman" animated show... If you'd really like I can go ahead and present them for you, just say the word.

Oh please do. I'm dying to read what tickles your funny bone.

Right now? After just meeting the guy in person for the first couple of times?

Yes. Because Joker knows Batman. He recognized that Batman cared for Rachel by the way he threw himself after her.

He knew what buttons to press to rile Batman.

Really... And yes, if you look at almost any other source material during a confrontation with Joker, Batman doesn't start punching, slamming, punching, crunching within the first five minutes of conversation, unless Joker is currently holding a gun to someones head, or has a detonater in his hand.

LMAO! Are you kidding me here, man?

Do I have to get out my scanner and post a dozen scans that show Batman beating seven shades of s*** out of the Joker because he messed with someone Batman cares about personally, just like in TDK when Joker told Batman he had Rachel, too?

I like my Batman to actually be calm, silent, composed, you know, give people the whole Batman stare treatment.

Do you? Well it's a shame you don't get that when Joker messes with people Batman cares about.

If you'd like I can also give you more examples.

Yes, please list me lots of examples of where Batman stayed calm when Joker held the life of someone he loves in his hands.

Even the cop who was supposed to be guarding the Joker later seemed to understand that fact that pain was not something that threatened the guy more than Batman...

That's because he was behind the bloody glass with Gordon and the others watching Batman beat the hell out of Joker with Joker laughing the whole time.

Honestly man, your criticisms are getting ridiculous now.

Oh I dunno, the fact that The Joker still looks greasy, dirty, trashy. Thats a discussion for another thread but namely, TDK's Joker does not fulfill the necessary visual qualifications for being the Clown Prince of Crime.

Ugh, this old chestnut. Yeah, save it for another thread.

I didn't think there was still people with a beef over this. Ledger looked awesome, and alot more like a scary clown than most visual representations of the Joker.

I cannot deny it was a strayed look from the comic, but then Batman doesn't look like his comic counterpart in any of the movies. No grey spandex and blue cape. Ra's Al Ghul didn't have his traditional outfit. Scarecrow just wore the sack on his head. No full body costume.

Every character was a visual deviation. Joker had the purple suit, green hair, white face, red lips, and a sinister cut smile. He had more of the essentials than any other character visually. And characteristically, too, actually.

Well he is really crazy isn't he? But he (and myself) was also speaking in a deeper metaphorical sense than just looks. I believe that he was trying to state that Batman was akin to the Joker himself, rather than a cop, in terms of temperment and ideals. Doesn't make much sense to me either.

I'm not talking about looks. Only a man with serious psychological and personal issues would do what Bruce Wayne does. And we saw that from Begins. Dealing with anger, pain, guilt, fear etc.

And Joker was right, Batman is not like the Cops. He doesn't work like a Cop, he doesn't obey the rules of the Cops. Like Joker said "Batman has no jurisdiction". The citizens of Gotham brand Batman an outlaw and vigilante.

Joker was correctly pointing out that Batman is tolerated for his uses, but Gotham still sees him as a freak, just like Joker. Even Harvey pointed that out. "Yes, Batman is an outlaw. But we've been happy to let him clean up our streets until now".

Do you see what Joker meant?

Yes, I am aware of this, as Batman should have been.

Oh yes, silly Batman. How did he not know Joker's weaknesses when this was the first time he ever tried to intimidate him? Tsk tsk, his psychic radar must have been on the blink that day

Batman is not a guy who only has two options for intimidation. He's creative, he's resourceful, he's intelligent. So excuse me if I'm expecting Batman to do something other than just hurt people all the time when he's trying to get information out of them. There's always other ways, as Batman (at least in the comics and in other films) has demonstrated time and time again.

Really? Ok, you tell me, what methods should he have employed with Joker in that interrogation room to make him talk, other than trying to physically intimidate him, and inflict pain on him?